The Holocaust was carried out by the Allies, not the Nazis! (Hypothesis)

Sorry for the short post and I'm not trying to derail, but i have a question for the OP. Who do you think was responsible for the Armenian Genocide, or was that just another "accident"? Also, I'm assuming from your logic that communists are responsible for slavery in early America (because that would make about as much sense).

reply to post by eyewitness86


I agree with very little of what you say usually...but you've got it right this time.

im not sure what to make of your thread, im 50/50 on what i've heard and your intentions.
however you reminded me of an incident that happened here in england just after the war, it was known as typhoons last storm Royal Air Force typhoon fighter bombers were sent to intercept a small convoy of ships in the north sea beleiving that they were fleeing s.s officials.
the ships were carrying holocaust survivors.
more info at www.thehistorychannel.co.uk

As a young engineering apprentice in 1960, I had the privelige of working with men who had fought in The First World War, and with men who had fought in The Second World War. Those who had served in WW1 would mostly speak of their experiences, but very few of those who had been through WW2, felt able yet to speak about it, but I do recall at least one man who told me what he had seen when his Regiment fought through German defences and liberated a Concentration Camp. It may be that no one can give accurate figures of the victims, but I have no doubts concering what took place.
If you truly believe the things you have stated, then I feel deeply sorry for you. One day, of course, you will know the truth, as we all will.
Horsegiver.

Originally posted by benign.psychosis
By "proper history", do you mean the "official story"?

No. I mean proper history.

Maybe you can explain to us all the historic roots of how the Nazi party came to power?

Perhaps you could start with the depression in the 1930's and how there was significant anti-jewish feeling throughout German politics.

Tell us about the influence of Guido Von List on Hitlers forming of racial theories and the central themes that ran through Hitlers policies of racial supremacy, the pureness of Aryan bloodlines and the fact that anyone considered non Aryan was classed as genetically inferior and sub-human.

Tell us who Julius Streicher was, and about the 400 anti-jewish laws passed between 1933 and 1939. Tell us about the Nuremberg Law maybe. I mean, if you are going to start suggesting that the Allies caused, or had a hand in the Holocaust, lets set the stage properly for the Nazi involvement in it, shall we?

I think we ALL know better than that.

Well, I don't think we do, do we?

Beyond that, if you are going to continue to insinuate that I've said certain things by using strawmen, I kindly ask for you to cease posting in this thread. Fallacy does not suit you.

Strawmen? I asked some questions that are pertinent to the subject at hand. Maybe you could comment on them instead of trying to sidestep them? And which false notions did I use exactly?

In the end, you've manged to promote nothing but ignorance.

Ah. Classic. You are insinuating that by asking you about elements you want to sidestep, I'm promoting ignorance.

I'd say that ignorance in terms of the Holocaust is not discussing the whole thing, don't you think?

reply to post by benign.psychosis


there is probably something wrong with me but seeing as my people and some of my family were the victims of this insanity that was part of one of the inquisitions that this worlds rulers insist on perpertrating on those that dont want to conform to their ideals of perfection --personally i'd sooner not dwell on evil but--time is almost up for this craziness to continue---going by the scriptures --one more worldwide inquisition and torture camp "experience" is on the way but this time more than just jews or christians will be the victims of this nwo.anyone that gets in their way will relive ww2 history.revelation 13:14-15-----all that dont conform will be murdered.

Originally posted by benign.psychosis
That wasn't when the first satellite was launched - it was when the first publicised satellite was launched.
Unless you believe that military technology - especially spy based - is publicaly announced as soon as it is workable.
I'm saying this as someone who had a Great Grandfather who worked with Satellite technology in the 20's and 30's.

Got to call this because its an extraordinary claim.You are claiming that the allied powers had orbital vehicles and satellite technology in the 1930's. Proof please? Your word on this is, sadly not enough.

Originally posted by neformore

Originally posted by benign.psychosis
By "proper history", do you mean the "official story"?

No. I mean proper history.

Maybe you can explain to us all the historic roots of how the Nazi party came to power?

Perhaps you could start with the depression in the 1930's and how there was significant anti-jewish feeling throughout German politics.

...

And even beyond the Nazi racial ideology, the very fact that the Nazis, Hitler's very early rhetoric, was basically that the German Army hadn't lost in the field during WWI, that they were, "stabbed in the back by the Jews!"

This is fully consistent with the fact that the Holocaust begins in earnest when the US comes into the War and coincides with the "Wannsee Conference" when it is decided that the camps will begin annihilation, or "evacuation", of the Jews based on the notion that Jews would cause their defeat, or that such a defeat was now inevitable, and the Jews would be punished for it...

Secondly, about the notion that Allied bombing caused the Holocaust, there was a belief in vogue in the 1990s that the Allies did little to directly stop the Holocaust, and mostly (knowingly) ignored processing intelligence which pointed to genocide simply because neither Churchill nor FDR wanted WWII to become a crusade to save Jews. And Allied bombing had little direct impact on any of the camps as a result as none were bombed...

[edit on 25/12/07 by Nickdfresh]

Holocaust denial is prohibited by law in Germany (and several others) today. They will send everybody into prison, if he dare to talk about such strange theories in public.

[edit on 25-12-2007 by qwertz]

I'm not even Jewish and the notion of this thread has me so riled up that I cant even think.
The Holocaust wasnt confined to just the camps, and it started long before the bombing campaigns.
It wasnt Western Allies shooting people by the hundreds of thousands, into mass grave trenches in eastern europe and russia.
It wasnt allies that systematicaly rounded up millions of people and put them in camps.
The words I have for the originator of this post would get me banned so I'll hold my tongue. But if anyone has ever had the occasion to speak with a holocaust survivor and they were able to speak of the terribly inhuman things they survived you cant help but be moved.
I met a woman once who survived the camps, and lost all of her family and everyone she knew. Her grandfather and grand mother went straight to the gas chambers from the train, her mother and father went to the chambers later on and her sisters and everybody else died in the camp.
An uncle of mine was coupleof small camps as they were liberated and could never talk about what he had seen there, the only thing he would say was that after they found the first one they learned to recognize the stench as they approached. He served in North Africa, Italy, Normandy all th way to the russians, he told that he had seen plenty of death and terrible things but nothing could have prepared him for what they found at the camps.
I'm half german and I see the holocaust and Nazi period as a shameful stain on the history of germany, I'm glad my ancestors left so long ago that it relieved me from some sort of collective guilt/shame, that I would certainly feel if I had relatives that promted such a horrible event.
TO BENIGN.PSHYCOSIS
NOTHING YOU THINK YOU CAN COME UP, NO WAY YOU SPIN IT, CANNOT CHANGE THE REALITY OF WHAT HAPPENED, DENY IT ALL YOU WANT
IT HAPPENED
YOU ARE CHOOSING TO DENY REALITY AND EMBRACE IGNORANCE.

It's undisputable that the jews were prosecuted for being financially in control of Germany andn that this was 'undesirable' to Hitler.

The numbers may be disputed but the blame is on the Nazi's in the first place, NOT the allies, sure the actions of the allies could have induced worse conditions such as loss of supplies but this was not an intentional action commited by the allies, sure they may have known that some of the supply trains carried goods, but these supplies could've been just as easilly used against the allies.

WW2 was full of atrocities from both sides, the Allies firebombed germany, they destroyed Rotterdam in my own home country, they dropped the first nuclear weapon which had horrendous effects on the Japanese people for years to come (and the radiological effects should have been known back then).

Are you trying to excuse Germany for what they did? I wouldn't excuse anyone in that war since everyone in that war committed evil acts.

The lesser of the two evils is still the allies and nothing in war is black and white, it's all a shade of grey.

The point of my post is this: all humans are capable of doing horrible things, esspecially if the stakes are high and the higher the stakes, the more evil they get.

As for Sat Recon? complete BS, the US didn't even have rocket technology capable of exiting the atmosphere and even the 1960's keyhole satelites had to drop their fill rolls and in turn had to be caught by a net which was attached to 2 helicopters! we didn't even HAVE helicopters and rocket technology is a complete inprobability from a technological point of view.

Dude it's a great theory but that is it. The holocaust was not the allies direct effect, it was definitely Hitler. You seem to know your theory but forget history. Hitler HATED the Jews, it has been well documented. The reason he needed them out of the way was so that he could create his own race.

I truly believe this was Germany's fault.

OK, I'm new here, but i've been reading ATS for years. There are just a few things that are troublesome about this thread. Forgive me if some of these concerns have already been addressed.

First of all, yes, history is written by the victors. However, the event had to take place for the victors to put their spin on it. You found holes in the "official" story? Well, spotted. All stories have holes. Doesn't make the even as a whole any less true.

You refuse to reveal your source. That's fine. However, history is based off of evidence. This evidence comes in the form of pictures, videos, documents, personal account. The odds of all of the evidence of the Holocaust being anything than what it is proposed to be is almost astronomical. There is an absolute wealth of information on the event. Most of this was documented by the Nazis themselves. If we are not to use any of this evidence, then what are we to use? You've never given a satisfactory answer to this question. Therefore, we are forced to use what is at hand. Was some of it altered? Maybe. Anything is possible. Did the Allies bomb supply lines? Yes, but why did they exist to begin with? They're the first things i'd bomb in a war. It only makes sense. Did the Allies know about the camps? More than likely. Did they fund them? Maybe. Maybe not. Hard to tell. American businessman had dealings with the Nazi party. Most governments have their hands in things the public knows nothing about.

In short, give us evidence to look over. There are always new things to be learned about history. However, without hard evidence, your theories are just that. Theories. Nothing more.

Originally posted by GrOuNd_ZeRo
It's undisputable that the jews were prosecuted for being financially in control of Germany andn that this was 'undesirable' to Hitler.

...

Dude, the Jews really weren't in financial control of Germany...

They were prosecuted because they were convenient scapegoats for other peoples' failings...

[edit on 25/12/07 by Nickdfresh]

reply to post by Nickdfresh


But Germany used jews as slaves for financial build, right?

I have no idea what you mean.

The Nazi Germans used everybody for "financial build" in the biggest mass theft (of gold reserves) in history....

Jews were used as slave laborers, as were virtually all other nationalities...

The point is that German Jews were pretty much thought of as Germans prior to 1933...

[edit on 25/12/07 by Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by benign.psychosis

As for the number, I posted that in the strict context of the number. You are making a mistake by taking it out of context. You must learn how to read within contextual bounds before posting in this thread again - please refrain from posting until you have been educated in such techniques.

"Death camp" is simply what the place was called in that specific web page - it has as much meaning as the phrase "Station Wagon." They are both nonsense and have nothing to due with reality.

So you like to quote sources that you disagree with? I’ll try and not use your sources again in the interest that you might disagree with them again.

I’ll let you change the word Death Camp to Station Wagon, and I’ll change all your Allies to Nazis for as you say there is not much meaning to it all.


[edit on 25-12-2007 by Xtrozero]

Yes but there were also german soldiers at those camps, whose to say that those supplies would have ever have gotten to the prisoners and that they werent just for the soldiers. And even if what your saying is true it would hardly absolve the nazis of blame. they still were the ones rounding people up or kiling them on the spot. I mean you can read memoirs of people in the holocaust who have some good nazi stories to tell.

reply to post by BuzzingOn


Earlier this year, I met one of the survivors of the Sorbibor uprising. He was around I think he said about 12-14 years old at the time when it happened.

So let me get this right. Using spy satellites launched secretly in the 1920s, the Allies were able to determine the location of all the Nazi concentration camps in Poland. They deliberately bombed all the supplies routes to these camps, meaning no food got through to the prisoners, thus causing their starvation and deaths and exonerating the Nazis from blame. By coincidence, all the Nazi's supplies do however get through to the camps; the Nazis just forgot to share their food. Meanwhile all the survivors from the camps (along with their guards) subsequently lied about what had happened - no doubt concocting their stories over cocktails just before the Allied ground forces arrived.

If it wasn't so offensive, it'd be funny ....