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The Holocaust was carried out by the Allies, not the Nazis! (Hypothesis)

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posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 02:43 AM
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Originally posted by sizzle
reply to post by Xtrozero
 


Xtrozero, you seem like a really smart guy. Why do you think that ppl have spent 9+ pages continuing to argue and try to reason with the Op, when it was already obvious on page 1, that this was not going to happen?


I'll tell you why I think people have spent 18 pages trying to "reason" with me.

They are trying to convert me! They actually believe the Nazi's caused the holocaust!

....... And because I don't agree, they hate me. They become prejudiced and full of hatred and spite as is apparent in their posts. I become lowly, unrespected, foolish, stupid, and a bad example a human being to the emotional apes.

That's fine though, it is to be expected from irrational bigots.

Either way, the absense of real evidencee is just too much to suggest that it was Hitler's plans.

Someone is going to have to show me actual proof that Hitler wanted to exterminate the Jews.




posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 05:01 AM
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reply to post by benign.psychosis
 


surely you see the folly in making such bold claims with absolutely nothing to back them up. you mention your method of finding out, but you do not specify the method. try putting yourself in our shoes.



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 05:52 AM
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Originally posted by benign.psychosis

That's fine though, it is to be expected from irrational bigots.

Either way, the absense of real evidencee is just too much to suggest that it was Hitler's plans.

Someone is going to have to show me actual proof that Hitler wanted to exterminate the Jews.


Well maybe if you actually knew anything about history, and what happened in Germany on Hitlers express orders prior to the outbreak of WW2, you wouldn't need "proof".

But no...you sidestep it. You've been asked about it several times and you won't address it. You won't accept the context, and instead prefer deliberate obtuseness as your fallback - oh and namecalling as well. The reason for your inability to address those issues? Because when you look at the context of Nazi Germany from the moment Hitler became chancellor in 1933 and his subsequent actions, or his actions as he moved to take control of the National Socialist party, your "hypothesis" falls to pieces.

But still, use all the names and labels you like. The one you are defending is associated with spectacular failure.



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 06:07 PM
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benign psychosis,
If any comments that I made here were offensive to you, I humbly apologize. It was never my intention to be rude. Please forgive me. The subject matter is one that stirs a lot of emotions in all of us. My remarks were not meant to be personally offensive.
I think that what most of us are saying is, that if there is something that you have found, that lends creedence to what you are saying here, we would like to see it.



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 06:41 PM
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Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

You claimed to have evidence - provide it.


Originally posted by benign.psychosis
I thought it was clear that I did that in the first few posts. I've already done my research and created this thread so that others can follow my lead to obtain the truth through the method I have explained. So far, I think maybe two people have understood the point of all of this.


Not even remotely clear. You have not provided any evidence to support your thesis, if you had we wouldn’t keep requesting it. You outlined a hypothese which you claimed to have proof to support. Despite being repeatedly asked to explain how you arrived at your conclusion you have failed to do so.


Originally posted by benign.psychosis
Everyone else is just acting like emotional apes.


And? Emotional apes is as good a description of what it is to be human.


Originally posted by benign.psychosis
They are trying to convert me! They actually believe the Nazi's caused the holocaust!

I believe no such thing – I know. Extraneous circumstances exacerbated the situation, but still they created the atmosphere which made it possible.


Originally posted by benign.psychosis
....... And because I don't agree, they hate me. They become prejudiced and full of hatred and spite as is apparent in their posts. I become lowly, unrespected, foolish, stupid, and a bad example a human being to the emotional apes.


Honey, I don’t hate you, quite the opposite in fact. I don’t want you to agree with me, I want you to learn for yourself and develop an educated opinion. I sense you quite like the attention and that is fine, you have mine, undivided. I have never resorted to name calling and I apologise if you feel besmirched, it certainly was not my intention. You feel backed up against a wall, I can understand that, that is why you are now throwing barbs. It is all good though, asking questions is always good.


Originally posted by benign.psychosis
Either way, the absense of real evidencee is just too much to suggest that it was Hitler's plans.

Someone is going to have to show me actual proof that Hitler wanted to exterminate the Jews.

Now this is a real discussion point and one that I will gladly engage in with you, in fact it would be my pleasure to do so. But you have to open your mind just a little, can you do that?

With this in mind I want to draw your attention to your own words, from another thread that you have authored.

www.abovetopsecret.com...


Originally posted by benign.psychosis
Unsubstantiated? Far from it, I can personally substantiate every claim by confirming that the events have happened as I have said. On top of that, I can only substantiate my claims as much as a witness in a court of law can can substantiate their testimony - by swearing that it is the truth. If you are asking for more, than you are being unrealistic and perhaps a little bit naive
.


All I ask is that you set this standard to what I can share with you based up on my own extensive studies on the subject, all of which I can back up, otherwise I will state clearly that it is my opinion. If you can do this and suspend your disbelief, I will gladly explain to you the nature of Hitler’s involvement and why there is a lack of evidence of Hitler’s direct involvement. For the record, it is my opinion that the holocaust was not planned, certainly not in the way the mass media would have us believe.

This invitation is not loaded, my hands are open. It is entirely up to you.



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 07:22 PM
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Originally posted by benign.psychosis
I'll tell you why I think people have spent 18 pages trying to "reason" with me.

They are trying to convert me! They actually believe the Nazi's caused the holocaust!

....... And because I don't agree, they hate me. They become prejudiced and full of hatred and spite as is apparent in their posts. I become lowly, unrespected, foolish, stupid, and a bad example a human being to the emotional apes.

That's fine though, it is to be expected from irrational bigots.

Either way, the absense of real evidencee is just too much to suggest that it was Hitler's plans.

Someone is going to have to show me actual proof that Hitler wanted to exterminate the Jews.


Well I do not think of you in any of the ways you describe above. hehe

There is really no "proof" you respect that aligns with the official story, so that is a fruitless adventure. It’s all a Zionist plot anyways, right? What I would like to see is “proof” such as communications within Nazi documentation that the Allies were preventing them from supplying needed food, medical and other subsistence that was ear marked for the camps/ghettos and never reached it due to allies’ interference.

Bush stated something rather interesting yesterday; He asked why didn’t the Allies disrupt the transportation to the camps? I think he views that there was a level of the allies ignoring the situation. I think it was maybe some of that, but it was more along the lines that the capabilities were just not there to pinpoint bombing attacks to actually do anything about it.



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 07:52 PM
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Benign, take no notice of the sheeple and the haters, you are quite correct in your theories, at the end of the day we have the evidence of the holocaust provided to us by the victors. Those who fabricate the truth at the bidding of the Zionist masters who were the real culprits, millions sacrificed just so they could have there own nation, a nation born out of terrorism from its inception to the present day.

As I have said many times before the minute a law is made to prevent anyone discussing the subject matter be it the holocaust or 9/11 you know its a cover up, the perps dont want anyone finding out the real truth.

Because in the final analysis what would that mean, well it would mean this, that some Jews aided and abbeted the Nazis in the murder of their own people by providing the Nizis with the money to wage war, that the state of Israel was founded on a lie and terrorism, that billions paid to said nation by Germany should not have been paid, that billions in free loans provided by the US every year at the expense to the US tax payer should not have taken place, that the persecution of the Palestinians was a crime against humanity, that persons jailed for disagreeing with the official version of the holocaust are innocent, that the ADL are a lying bunch of cow pats the list is endless but you get the idea.

And what makes it really worse are those who blindly believe what they are told evidence provided or not becuase basically they are too brainwashed and lazy to find out the real truth abouth anything.



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 09:19 PM
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Originally posted by magicmushroom
Benign, take no notice of the sheeple and the haters, you are quite correct in your theories, at the end of the day we have the evidence of the holocaust provided to us by the victors. Those who fabricate the truth at the bidding of the Zionist masters who were the real culprits, millions sacrificed just so they could have there own nation, a nation born out of terrorism from its inception to the present day.

Sheeple is such a subjective term, it truly depends upon where you're sitting.

Who are the 'Zionist masters' that you are talking off? We have much more testimony than just the victors. Since the fall of communism there has been a massive effort to gain the testimony of those who suffered not only at the hands of the Nazis, but who, once freed from the camps were then sent back east, only to be incarcerated by Stalin.

I agree with you that Israel was born out of terrorism but the holocaust did not manufacture the consent, though it was hijacked in retrospect and used for this purpose. The terrorism began long before Hitler came to power, long before the final solution was even thought of.


Originally posted by magicmushroom
As I have said many times before the minute a law is made to prevent anyone discussing the subject matter be it the holocaust or 9/11 you know its a cover up, the perps dont want anyone finding out the real truth.

There is no law to say we cannot discuss the holocaust. We can discuss here any aspect of the holocaust. Many before Benign have questioned whether it happened right here on these boards, some are still posting, they are not imprisoned, they have not come forward to say they have been penalised in any way.

I do not agree with the laws that prosecute people who deny the holocaust for it gives people like you, who are obviously oblivious to the history of the period a belief that there are short cuts to the acquisition of knowledge. You think you know when in fact you know very, very little.


Originally posted by magicmushroom
Because in the final analysis what would that mean, well it would mean this, that some Jews aided and abbeted the Nazis in the murder of their own people by providing the Nizis with the money to wage war, that the state of Israel was founded on a lie and terrorism, that billions paid to said nation by Germany should not have been paid, that billions in free loans provided by the US every year at the expense to the US tax payer should not have taken place, that the persecution of the Palestinians was a crime against humanity, that persons jailed for disagreeing with the official version of the holocaust are innocent, that the ADL are a lying bunch of cow pats the list is endless but you get the idea.


Do you know what some Jews did aid and abet the Nazis? Some Jews even participated in killing other Jews. Some Jews did finance Hitler. Some Jews invested in Germany. So what? Some people are good and some are bad. For some money will always come before the welfare of others. All it proves is that on every level of society corruption can and will exist.

If you have a problem with the US giving loans to Israel take it up with your representative. The German state and business community made an absolute fortune out of the exploitation of Jews and the people of the occupied territories. Do you really believe that the US won the war? Territorially, Russian won but economically German beat us all hands down. I am sure that you won't believe me so look for yourself. Prove that you are not the sheeply you so obviously appear to be.

The way I look at it, those persecuted by the Nazis, Jews or otherwise, were stripped of their assets - their homes and business bought from them, quite literally for pennies (or pfennigs if hair splitting is your thing), their bank accounts and stocks were seized. None of this was given back. In some cases, they were used for forced labour, that is slavery in lay mans terms. Why is it that you feel that they do not deserve to be compensated for that?

Imagine, your whole life you pay into an insurance policy so that your family can be provided for in the event of your death. You die, but because you have no rights, that insurance company tellse your wife to go whistle. Do you think that is fair? Should that fanily not sue that insurance company for compensation.

I personally do not think that tax payers should be footing the bill. I personally think it is about time that those corporations and businesses that profitted directly, not only from slave labour but also, from the purchase at 'knock down' prices of Jewish businesses should be footing the bill. But then that is me.

It is all very well to wave your finger around wildly screaming zionist, but it gets nobody anywhere, you play right into the hands of all those corporations who think if they hold out long enough they'll be no one left to file suit. The only reason they have got away with it for so long is because of people like you. Sheeple, who would rather blame Jews than realise that those Jews were people like you and me, getting screwed by the system and the mega rich.

When Bush talks about 'them and us', I never make the mistake of thinking I fall into the us.


Originally posted by magicmushroom
And what makes it really worse are those who blindly believe what they are told evidence provided or not becuase basically they are too brainwashed and lazy to find out the real truth abouth anything.


You just keep telling yourself that.



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 11:26 PM
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"The Tribunal shall not be bound by technical rules of evidence. It shall adopt and apply to the greatest possible extent expeditious and nontechnical procedure, and shall admit any evidence which it deems to be of probative value."
en.wikipedia.org...


If that statement is at all true, then thats all i need to see.

Case closed, the holocaust was a fact turned fable.



posted on Jan, 13 2008 @ 02:32 AM
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Originally posted by tom goose

"The Tribunal shall not be bound by technical rules of evidence. It shall adopt and apply to the greatest possible extent expeditious and nontechnical procedure, and shall admit any evidence which it deems to be of probative value."
en.wikipedia.org...


If that statement is at all true, then thats all i need to see.

Case closed, the holocaust was a fact turned fable.



Great post, tom goose!


Maybe that will shed more light upon the mystery that is this thread.



posted on Jan, 13 2008 @ 04:07 AM
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Originally posted by benign.psychosis
Maybe that will shed more light upon the mystery that is this thread.


It sheds no light at all. It doesn't prove anything.

Q . How did the Nuremberg trials shape Hitlers thinking and policy towards the Jewish people, and his subsequent actions when he came to power?

A. They didn't, because he was dead when they happened.

You're clutching at straws...again.



posted on Jan, 13 2008 @ 04:32 AM
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Originally posted by neformore

Q . How did the Nuremberg trials shape Hitlers thinking and policy towards the Jewish people, and his subsequent actions when he came to power?

A. They didn't, because he was dead when they happened.



That is a remarkable conclusion if I've ever seen one.


A better question would be:

Q . How did the Nuremberg trails shape the world's perception of Hitler's thinking and policy towards the Jewish people, and his subsequent actions when he came to power?



posted on Jan, 13 2008 @ 04:48 AM
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'If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.' -- Joseph Goebbels, Nazi Propaganda Minister

------------------------
wow that statement sure speaks volume



posted on Jan, 13 2008 @ 04:50 AM
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reply to post by magicmushroom
 


Thanks for the post, magicmushroom
.

Many of these people appear to comfortly clutch at straws of the version of history created by the victors, as if it is the truth.

It shouldn't be so difficult to understand that a civil war where the South wins would be a revolutionary war, or that a revolutionary war where the dissinters lose is a civil war.

They are just brainwashed by propaganda and emotion to clearly see what actually happened during the holocaust. They would not dare attempt to perceive the holocaust any other way.

I'd request them that they goto CIA.GOV and search the declassified documents for the mentioning of Zionist propaganda techniques utilized in the MSM, particularly during the creation of Israel for just a taste.

Like you said, though, they are too brainwashed and lazy to look for the information out there.

Have a great day!



posted on Jan, 13 2008 @ 08:35 AM
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Originally posted by benign.psychosis

That is a remarkable conclusion if I've ever seen one.


A better question would be:

Q . How did the Nuremberg trails shape the world's perception of Hitler's thinking and policy towards the Jewish people, and his subsequent actions when he came to power?


A. It didn't. Because between 1933 and 1940 after Hitler became chancellor the specific racially motivated laws (there were 400 of them) singling out jewish people because of their race were all put into place, synagogues were burnt and the National Socialist agenda was set describing jewish people as "sub-human".

In other words, the racists had already set their own stage and showed themselves for what they were before the war started.

I mean - if you knew anything about history at all you would be aware of this, but its clear that either you don't give a damn or you are too ignorant to look it up.



posted on Jan, 13 2008 @ 09:05 AM
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Originally posted by neformore


A. It didn't. Because between 1933 and 1940 after Hitler became chancellor the specific racially motivated laws (there were 400 of them) singling out jewish people because of their race were all put into place, synagogues were burnt and the National Socialist agenda was set describing jewish people as "sub-human".

In other words, the racists had already set their own stage and showed themselves for what they were before the war started.


Hello neformore, thanks for the post!


There were also many laws concerning blacks in the pre-civil rights era, and even more during slavery. Most white people described blacks as sub-human. Racism was rampant.

... but there was no black holocaust!

There was slavery! Just like the slavery being performed in concentration work camps to support the Nazi war machine!

Germany is hardly the only country to have ever created anti-jewish legislation. The Jews have been exiled over and over again. This too was the intention of Germany after they were to win war - to exile the Jews to the east.

As always, thank you for the post!



posted on Jan, 13 2008 @ 09:18 AM
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Nice try on spinning it there.

Tell me what Operation Reinhard was.

Maybe then you could tell me about he documented orders that Himmler gave to Rudolf Hoss (you know who he was, don't you?) on his visit to Auschwitz in 1942?



posted on Jan, 13 2008 @ 11:31 AM
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Let me get this strait.

I should not believe that the holocaust was a mistake by the Germans, and instigated by the allies, basicly the theory that the op gave.

But im suposed to believe that Hitlet meant to exterminate an entire race and take over the entire world? Im supposed to believe that children were thrown into ovens when they were still alive, lamp shades were made out of jew skin, soap was made from jew fat, and the hair shaved of jew heads were used to make matresses for germen women?

RIIIIIGGGGHT.

But it is outragouse to believe that maybe the whole story was blown out of perportion in order to establish a global court, and a one world governement, not to mention reclaim a piece of land for jews that they have been fighting to get for 1000 years. And now nobody can touch them while they wave the banner "NEVER AGAIN"

Yes Hitler wanted Jews out of Germany, and they had plenty of time to leave after 1933.

I think Hitler had the right to banish Jews from Germany, considering they had no patriotism towards that nation yet they were taking up all the professional titles in Germany and were not actually working for Germany

Jews tried to take over Germany first, Hilter only tried to take it back.



posted on Jan, 13 2008 @ 11:52 AM
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Originally posted by neformore
Nice try on spinning it there.

Tell me what Operation Reinhard was.

Maybe then you could tell me about he documented orders that Himmler gave to Rudolf Hoss (you know who he was, don't you?) on his visit to Auschwitz in 1942?



It was a simple verbal hoax that was created after Hoess was beaten, liquered up, tortured and forced to adhere to the victor's idea of what his testimony should consist of, at a trial that was not be bound by technical rules of evidence, that adopted and applied the greatest possible extent expeditious and nontechnical procedure, and admitted any evidence which it deems to be of probative value - such as forced testimony and forged/hoaxed documents.

He even left behind clues in his testimony, the last thing he could do to cast doubt upon the lie. He opened with what everyone wanted to hear, and ended with seemingly trivial details, knowing full well that they would not be scrutinized by the many: They already received what they wanted to hear: "The "final solution" of the Jewish question meant the complete extermination of all Jews in Europe." After that, the details don't matter, and he knew it.



The "final solution" of the Jewish question meant the complete extermination of all Jews in Europe. I was ordered to establish extermination facilities at Auschwitz in June 1941. At that time, there were already in the General Government three other extermination camps: Belzek, Treblinka, and Wolzek.


Belzec and Treblinka did not exist "At that time" in 1941. They did not exist until the following year. Wolzek never existed. That is a "documented" statement by Hoess, so do you trust it?

It's "documented" afterall!


I think that covers your "documented orders"


Thanks for the post!



posted on Jan, 13 2008 @ 01:59 PM
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reply to post by neformore
 


As my Mum always says "you can't educate pork". Is it any wonder that Himmler had so many eager recruits? These guys will have us all lined up against the wall, now ain't THAT ironic.




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