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The Holocaust was carried out by the Allies, not the Nazis! (Hypothesis)

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posted on Dec, 29 2007 @ 02:13 PM
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I have stated that everyone needs to look at the timeline on how all of this came about. It is critical to analyze what happen before an event because with every event there are prior actions that helped felicitate it.

Prior to WWII there were a few key events.

1. The Treaty of Versailles after WWI
2. The rise of Hitler’s party
3. Hitler in 1933

The Treaty of Versailles after WWI
If you really wanted to look for the true reason for Germany to start WWII you need to look no farther than this. Some major areas of it was large loss of land since every country around them decided they were due a good size chunk of land from the Germans, 10s of billions of dollars in reparations and 10s of billions in loan dept to American Big business. Germany had no way to pay all this back and the world still demanded it to the penny.

“The standard view is that the reparations, particularly forcing Germany to accept the entire blame, were the cause of Germany's economic woes and the concomitant rise of Nazism to power.”

This treaty was given to the Germans on the ultimatum that if the intern government did not sign it in 24 hours then the war would start back up on Germany’s soil, and so the intern Government signed.

“The treaty evoked an angry and hostile reception in Germany from the moment its contents were made public. The Germans were outraged and horrified at the result - since Wilson's idealistic fourteen points had painted the picture of a different outcome. They did not feel that they were responsible for starting the war nor did they feel as though they had lost. The German people had understood the negotiations at Versailles to be a peace conference and not a surrender.”

Well it was a forced surrender with all blame and reparations placed on the German’s shoulders.

The 1920s were not very good in Germany for the hyper inflation caused by war debt was the worst in the world and in 1923 when the rate of inflation hit 3.25 × 106 percent per month (prices double every 49 hours) people started to do this..

burning money for fuel

America big business has their finger prints all over this for the billions in loans to Germany throughout the 20s and 30s came from them.

The German people were looking for a leader to get them out of this horrendous mess and Hitler had the charisma to win them over. Little did they or the world know that a year later in 1934 Hitler would become a dictator and wiped out all other political parties.

“The policies pursued by Nazi Germany were based on the concept of Lebensraum; among them: "Aryan" racial purity, anti-Semitism, revenge for Germany's territorial losses at the Treaty of Versailles and the perceived loss of pride because of it, and anti-communism directed at the Soviet Union”

Each year from 1934 to 1938 the laws against all Jews increased until they basically had no rights to do anything by 1939, and it was at this point the mass deportation started to the Ghettos. Was this caused by an economic war that the Jews started with Germany, or was it just part Hitler’s crazy plan of racial purity while creating a bad guy to strengthen his nationalism?

I personally see it as the acts of a crazy person due to the efforts involved to remove them first from all Nazi occupied Europe and then the earth, and the initial extremely heavy restrictions placed on them in the mid 30s were more than enough to prevent them from creating an economic war with Germany.

Up until 1938 it is easy to see that America’s big business could have been still deeply involved with Germany. After that date we see different Germany that basically turned against the whole world.

The OP talked about Germany trying to protect its Jews by using guarded camps to do it, but when we look at the “German Jew” there were only about 500,000 before Hitler took power and 250,000 of them fled the country by 1933. By 1943 Hitler declared Germany “judenrein” (free of Jews) with an estimated 200,000 German Jews killed.

This is but a small percentage of the millions that were killed in Poland as all Jews in all Nazi occupied Europe were gathered and shipped to the ghettos in Poland.

Now let’s get back to the timeline of when America started the heavy bombing of Germany.

“Prior to 1942, Bomber Command lacked accurate navigational equipment. During the battle of the Ruhr a dismal one tenth of all bombs dropped landed within a two and half mile radius of the target.”
This is an example of our bombing efforts prior to 1943. Heavy losses with a very low success rate were the norm. After 1943 Technology finally allowed us to gain a better accuracy, but losses were increasingly greater and

“By March 1944, the situation was becoming desperate. "The German air defenses had got on top of the night bombers and were inflicting an insupportable casualty rate upon them [Bomber Command]. In March 1944 Bomber Command was no longer in a position to sustain a major night offensive against German cities...”

Germany was also not doing that badly in that…

“Germany scattered there industry, in an attempt to 'present a more difficult target system' for the bomber fleet. The plan of dispersal provided the breaking up of production and the establishment of multiple sources of each part. For example, the twenty-seven main aircraft plants were dispersed to three hundred sub-centers and fifty-one aircraft engine plants were scattered to 249 locations between April and August of 1944. Attempts were made to move more vital production facilities underground. Disused railway tunnels, salt mines, fortifications and mine galleries were utilized to the extent that by January 1945 a total of 425,000 square meters of industrial plant existed underground. Therefore by mid 1945, the Germans had gone a long way towards successfully shielding themselves against air attacks.”

When P-51 mustangs entered the war in 1943 they were what finally allowed bombing to be done with much fewer losses.

This where we get back to the Jews…

The OPs initial posts that maybe the Allies were the cause for the holocaust do to bombing supply lines just doesn’t fit with the physical limitations the Allies had with bombing throughout the war.

This inability to bomb very well really doesn’t account for the massive deaths at the ghettos from 1940 to 1944 of Jews, Pols, Russian Etc.
and actions such as with the first testing of the gas chambers in early 1941 on 850 Russian/Polish prisoners they found that An HCN concentration of 300 parts per million in air will kill a human within a few minutes.

And as example of one concentration camp below we can see how Germany’s twisted views that were the norm for them played across not only with the Jews but everyone. We can now see how these twisted views slowly started in the 1930's when Hitler came into power and continued to escalate every year until death camps were in full operation.



[edit on 29-12-2007 by Xtrozero]




posted on Dec, 29 2007 @ 02:19 PM
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Second part:


Prisoners were transported from all over German-occupied Europe by rail, arriving at Auschwitz-Birkenau in daily convoys. Arrivals at the complex were separated into four groups:

“One group, about three-quarters of the total, went to the gas chambers of Auschwitz-Birkenau within a few hours; they included all children, all women with children, all the elderly, and all those who appeared on brief and superficial inspection by an SS doctor not to be fully fit. In the Auschwitz Birkenau camp more than 20,000 people could be gassed and cremated each day. At Birkenau, the Nazis used a cyanide gas produced from Zyklon B pellets, which were manufactured by two companies who had acquired licensing rights to the patent held by IG Farben. The two companies were Tesch & Stabenow, of Hamburg, who supplied two tons of the crystals each month, and Degesch, of Dessau, who produced three-quarters of a ton. The bills of lading were produced at Nuremburg.[6]

A second group of prisoners were used as slave labor at industrial factories for such companies as IG Farben and Krupp. At the Auschwitz complex 405,000 prisoners were recorded as slaves between 1940 and 1945. Of these about 340,000 perished through executions, beatings, starvation, and sickness. Some prisoners survived through the help of German industrialist Oskar Schindler, who saved about 1,100 Polish Jews by diverting them from Auschwitz to work for him, first in his factory near Kraków and later at a factory in what is now the Czech Republic.
A third group, mostly twins and dwarfs, underwent medical experiments at the hands of doctors such as Josef Mengele, who was also known as the “Angel of Death.”

The fourth group was composed of women who were selected to work in "Canada", the part of Birkenau where prisoners' belongings were sorted for use by Germans. The name "Canada" was very cynically chosen. In Poland it was - and is still - used as an expression used when viewing, for example, a valuable and fine gift. The expression comes from the time when Polish emigrants were sending gifts home from Canada. “

The end proof here is the crimes committed by the Nazis were all done with a conscious systematic approach that leaves little doubt to who was at fault.



posted on Dec, 29 2007 @ 03:02 PM
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I agree with your point,it makes me wonder did the op just post this just to start a debate,because no reasonable person would really stand by his origanal commint..........just trowin it out there......fun debate though



posted on Dec, 29 2007 @ 03:03 PM
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forgive my typos...lol



posted on Dec, 29 2007 @ 04:28 PM
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Originally posted by benign.psychosis
If this is all true, then a big piece of the story has been hidden from the eyes of most, and it shows that the Jews began an economic war against the Germany economy.

Others may want to investigate this further.


What has been hidden?

A few links which offer a broader perspective on the Anti Nazi Rally by the American Jewish Congress that sparked the erroneous head-line.

www.ajhs.org...

www.marxists.de...

www.wintersonnenwende.com...

Lord Beaverbrook, who owned the Daily Express at that time, was in 1940 appointed Minister of Information to the War Cabinet. With a readership of close to 4 million, the Daily Express was the most widely read newspaper in the world. It’s popularity was in no small part due to it’s use of sensationalism, a craft that Beaverbrook applied to the dissemination of mass propaganda during the war years. Beaverbrook was an anti-fascist, as such he was chosen by Churchill for the cabinet. Fascism was rife at the highest levels of Britain’s establishment and Churchill, a founding member of the Anti-Fascist League, was acutely aware of these deep divisions within the country.

It would be interesting to see what the New York Times reported and whether they took the same tone. The publisher of the Times, Arthur Sulzberger, was a close associate of Sir William Stephenson who was the de facto head of the Churchill contingent of British SIS in the US. It was Stephenson and Churchill who recommended to FDR that he establish the war-time intelligence network OSS. Stephenson further recommended an old friend of his, Bill Donovan to head up the new agency.

What effect the article was intended to have is debateable, that it was an act of propaganda is certain. I would be surprised if it had not been used as further ammunition against the Jews under German control. In this then the British establishment and particularly, Lord Beaverbrook must shoulder some culpability. It could be hoped that they had not fully appreciated the situation in Germany, but it is more likely they had packaged the story for the purpose of reaching its own readership and was an appeal against those in Britain who found themselves leaning further to the right. That Beaverbrook sought to use the story to manufacture the consent of the British people does not mean that the story was manufactured. Just the headline, there was no declaration of war from Judea.

In the original link posted by clearskies, it lists endless quotes, many that are clearly taken out of context. A quote by Beaverbrook is one example, there are also a number attributed to Henry Morgenthau Jr, though his words, taken out of their context imply another meaning. The Morgenthau Plan proposed that Germany be reduced to the level of an 18th century feudal agrarian economy. He was anti-German, very anti-German. Although not a known communist himself, one of his close associates and advisors Duncan Currie was a Soviet spy. It is little wonder then that Morgenthau’s policies and arguments would use the treatment of the Jews as an example of why his plan should be implemented. He failed completely to have his way, the post-war economic boom and Germany’s status in the world’s economy today is all the evidence that is needed to demonstrate that even if Judea had declared war, they lost it. I suppose you could say they got Israel, but then look at Israel – I’d say the Jews got the fuzzy end of the lolly-pop once again. Though not quite a fuzzy as the Palestinians.

en.wikipedia.org...

Morgenthau, though Jewish, was not a Zionist. If you read the link above you may just start to realise what actually did happen to the Jews of Europe. While the Allies do share responsibility for the murder of millions by the Nazis it is not through bombing but indifference. The Germans removed their ability to fend for themselves and refused to provide for them. The Allies refused to accept refugees, mass immigration programmes and to air-drop emergency food. They saw those Jews starving to death or suffering persecution as a problem that they would rather not inherit. I don’t think that the Allied governments (chiefly US and Britain) thought the Germans would actually ‘euthanase’ the ethnic Poles and the Jews, but then in 1933 nor did the Germans.

The following links, if read, will give you a finer understanding of what the primary war factions were aiming for. In the UK and the USA both lacked political and economic cohesion in 1933, with many in each country seeking an alliance with the Nazis. There were those in the US who sought the end of Britain’s trade dominance and sought an agreement with Germany alone. Likewise in Britain, there were those who wished to keep American influence out of Europe. Fascism, Communists, Socialists, Nationalist, Imperialists, Capitalist and every other shade under the sun, all defending their own vision of the future.

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...(1939)

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

american..._almanac.tripod.com/mccloy2.htm

The Jews of course did have factions that were determined at all costs to found a homeland for the Jews in Palestine, this is well documented and they too played a part in the murder of innocent men, women and children, Jewish and otherwise. That does not translate to mean though that the Jews murdered by the Nazis were any less real or any less victims. A few fanatics should not tarnish an entire people, if they do then we all have our burdens to bare.



posted on Dec, 29 2007 @ 04:37 PM
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Originally posted by Dienekes
reply to post by benign.psychosis
 




Originally posted by apex
Oh right, when Germany had been declaring them subhuman as well, and responsible for the loss of WW1. I can't personally see how that proves the allies carried out the holocaust, or see how that maybe means the Germans were justified to carry out genocide against them.


To add to that. If these camps were created by the Germans to protect the Jews from antisemitism,as your theory states, you have to look at who started the whole antisemitism against the Jews in the first place. Hitler, the Nazi regime, so why would they have the need to protect someone from their own atrocities? Why the gas chambers in the camps? Does it matter if there were traces of gas in them? The fact that they existed should make you shudder. What evidence do you have that makes survivors' testimonies completely irrelevant or canceled out?

[edit on 29-12-2007 by Dienekes]


Who started it? It's been going on for thousands of years because Jews come into one country and try to set up their own political body and financial systems based on Jewish law, before being persecuted and kicked out. It's happened hundreds of times, and they've been "slaughterd" many times because of it.

I made a post concerning this to allow members to engage in civil discussion and research

Why the gas chambers? You tell me.. I have probably 200 knives in my house, poison, an axe, a few guns.. does that prove I'm a killer?

The gas chambers may have been used for delousing the large concentration of internees.



What evidence do you have that makes survivors' testimonies completely irrelevant or canceled out?


I have none. What evidence do you have that makes Christians, racists, or progressive's testimonies completely irrelevant or canceled out?



posted on Dec, 29 2007 @ 04:42 PM
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reply to post by Xtrozero
 


Do you usually cut and paste from wikipedia without linking to the source?

Is that also where you get all of your history information? I mean, if you *are* wikipedia, then I can see why you agree with it.



posted on Dec, 29 2007 @ 05:09 PM
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Originally posted by Xtrozero
Do you know what it takes to get locked up as you say? If I said that 5.5 million died and not 6 million would I be locked up in those countries?


Perhaps.

David Irving was given 3 years for a speech he did 16 years before he was prisoned.


A former Nazi, Hafner is wanted by some Israeli center his claims that the concentration camp he worked in was to protect the Jews.

Laws against Holocaust denial



posted on Dec, 29 2007 @ 05:53 PM
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reply to post by benign.psychosis
 

to your original post and thought process, about reality... to believe anything as truth, as i try to understand your thinking, is to believe in ONLY what is happening to yourself this instant. all other reality can be manipulated, changed, or missread in some form or fashion. but man does not live like that. if it did, it would invalidate every court case, history book, teaching tools, etc.. we as humans cannot presently function like that. even YOU have to rely on someone elses opinion. doctors, lawyers, your own mother to base some reality on. therefore your logic does not make sense. even in your conjecture of reality, what is happening to yourself this instant, might not be TRUE reality. it is thus a specious dialog, and can niether be proven or disproven, making it worthless to even talk about



posted on Dec, 29 2007 @ 06:17 PM
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Originally posted by benign.psychosis
The gas chambers may have been used for delousing the large concentration of internees.


I read this and I just felt sad for you.

You seem to want to make excuses for sadistic mass murderers.

Quite why you feel the need to do that is beyond me. Maybe you could enlighten us?



posted on Dec, 29 2007 @ 06:19 PM
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i have a question 4 u benign.psychosis, are u a Nazi or Iranian?



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 12:24 AM
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Originally posted by benign.psychosis
Do you usually cut and paste from wikipedia without linking to the source?

Is that also where you get all of your history information? I mean, if you *are* wikipedia, then I can see why you agree with it.


So do you disagree with my post or do you just out right discount. Prove to me I'm incorrect if you like for you can google as well as I can.

My point in my post was about the timeline of events and how they do not match with your story, and my little quotes were not there to prove my timeline as much as just to add a tone as to what was going on there.

If you want me to formally research for you in APA format then maybe you better start to shed some facts to support your views and do the same.

Better yet I do not think you really want to give this an honest try and so have at it with your little quick replies that just attack sources. If you think I'm inaccurate then post away, better yet don't post for I think it is not worth my time to reply to you.



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 01:20 AM
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reply to post by neformore
 


Neformore--

This is an ugly, disgusting topic. And, in its sensitivity, it's difficult to discuss without sounding like an extremist, from either POV.

But, Zyklon B (the gas used to exterminate prisoners), _was_ a pesticide. The camps _were_ over-run with typhoid fever (spread by lice or fleas). There WERE de-lousing chambers in the concentration camps. Mattresses, blankets and clothing WERE placed in these chambers for delousing.

Inmates heads were shaved (to help prevent lice from spreading--as mentioned in "Schindler's List").

Frankly, I wonder if _maybe_ as conditions worsened in the death camps, maybe the commanders became more desperate in their methods of trying to control out-of-control conditions by resorting to gassing-to-death (exterminating) the prisoners they deemed less-healthy; I wonder if the camps were really designed or intended for mass-extermination.

True, camps had crematoriums, but there's a crematorium fifteen minutes from where I live.

I'm aware of the deathpits in Byelorussia (and elsewhere) and the Einsatzgruppen. And I'm aware of how people behave when they're with their peers (especially when they've been drinking alcohol--as has been suggested the Nazis did prior to their burnings of towns and mass-murders).

But, to me, certain questions are worth bringing up. And they shouldn't cause imprisonment or defamation, insult, rage (at the person who is raising the subject), et cetera.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any other topic that is forbidden for discussion the way the holocaust is. Why is that? Why is this subject so taboo?

To suggest that The Allies were responsible for The Holocaust, yeah, well, that's probably daft...but did they worsen the conditions of the concentration camps? Arguably, they did. Was it intentional? FFS, probably not.

But is it really necessary to _continually_ propagate how evil Hitler was (via any pop-culture book or TV show, movie of the weeek, or History Channel programme)? Can't there once-in-a-while be a documentary about the subject where the word "evil" is not used to describe Hitler?

Can't we ever be presented with all the available facts and be allowed to think for ourselves and come to our own conclusions?

Hoping I don't alienate anyone too severely,
Fuggle

PS -- And yes, obviously the SS were brutish thugs and six million Jews were murdered and oppressing anyone for their beliefs is wrong.



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 01:29 AM
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Originally posted by benign.psychosis
Who started it? It's been going on for thousands of years because Jews come into one country and try to set up their own political body and financial systems based on Jewish law, before being persecuted and kicked out. It's happened hundreds of times, and they've been "slaughterd" many times because of it.


Complete and utter twaddle. That statement bears absolutely no resmblance to history, disputed or otherwise. If you only read anti-semitic and christian fundamentalists web-sites then you will never know the truth. Research before you reach a conclusion based on the bias of others or a source that reaffirms your own prejudice - that ain't learning and the above is simply embarassing.



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 01:47 AM
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reply to post by Fuggle
 


Fuggle I think that you may find the following links useful in expanding your understanding of the Jewish genocide by the Nazis, particularly Action Reinhard and its symbiosis with the even more secret Generalplan Ost.

en.wikipedia.org...

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...

www.deathcamps.org...

www.historylearningsite.co.uk...

www.nizkor.org...

www.holocaustresearchproject.org...

www.sobibor.info...

en.wikipedia.org...

If you have any specific questions, then don't hesitate to ask - I may not know the answer but I may know where to look.



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 02:11 AM
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reply to post by KilgoreTrout
 


Thanks, Kilgore.

I'll try and check out your links within the next few days.

F

PS -- The Vonneguts have meant a great deal to my appreciation of what's possible with the pen.



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 02:21 AM
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Originally posted by Fuggle
Neformore--

This is an ugly, disgusting topic.


I read this and I agreed with it.

As for the rest of your post - you need to learn some history and the links Kilgore has offered are probably as good a place as any to start.

You seem to be unaware that this was a calculated, systematic and recorded extermination. You also don't seem to take into account survivor testimony, witnesses and forensic evidence.

And, like benign.psychosis, you seem to want to find excuses for mass murder.

As for this...



But is it really necessary to _continually_ propagate how evil Hitler was (via any pop-culture book or TV show, movie of the weeek, or History Channel programme)? Can't there once-in-a-while be a documentary about the subject where the word "evil" is not used to describe Hitler?


Yes, its necessary. Its Necessary to underline the absolute inhumanity. Its necessary to make things perfectly clear just how dark and despicable things can go.

Its necessary because it should make you think about how one single disturbed vile, racist and disgusting man, surrounded by psychophants and psychopaths can, given the correct conditions be directly responsible for the most destructive war ever seen on this planet and for some of the most inhumane actions ever undertaken.

Its necessary to prevent it happening again.

Its not a subject that you can take light-heartedly, or sugar coat. There are NO positives from it.



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 02:29 AM
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reply to post by neformore
 


Oh, ok, thanks.

I'll try and learn more history.

F



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 04:58 AM
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reply to post by KilgoreTrout
 


You do understand that all of those websites (except perhaps wikipedia, but come on) are aimed at propagating one side of the story? The well known story?

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...

www.deathcamps.org...

www.nizkor.org...

www.holocaustresearchproject.org...

Seriously, that is like going to a conspiracy site to factual information about a conspiracy.



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 05:12 AM
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Originally posted by neformore

As for the rest of your post - you need to learn some history and the links Kilgore has offered are probably as good a place as any to start.

You seem to be unaware that this was a calculated, systematic and recorded extermination. You also don't seem to take into account survivor testimony, witnesses and forensic evidence.



I like that quote because it is exactly what someone who believe that 9/11 was carried out by terrorists would say.

Not that I am attempting to align you with one of those people, but merely align you with the method of reasoning they use.



Complete and utter twaddle. That statement bears absolutely no resmblance to history, disputed or otherwise. If you only read anti-semitic and christian fundamentalists web-sites then you will never know the truth. Research before you reach a conclusion based on the bias of others or a source that reaffirms your own prejudice - that ain't learning and the above is simply embarassing.


I'm sorry, but I'd have to disagree with you. I suggest you read the thread that I linked to and then look up why the Jews were exciled from Spain and France, for starters. If you look back in history, I'm sure you will find many examples that look similiar to this one - from France:



We must refuse everything to the Jews as a nation and accord everything to Jews as individuals. We must withdraw recognition from their judges; they should only have our judges. We must refuse legal protection to the maintenance of the so-called laws of their Judaic organization; they should not be allowed to form in the state either a political body or an order. They must be citizens individually. But, some will say to me, they do not want to be citizens. Well then! If they do not want to be citizens, they should say so, and then, we should banish them. It is repugnant to have in the state an association of non-citizens, and a nation within the nation. . . . In short, Sirs, the presumed status of every man resident in a country is to be a citizen.



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