The Holocaust was carried out by the Allies, not the Nazis! (Hypothesis)

Originally posted by scientist
THis is exactly what I am talking about. People can't even question alternative theories without being called a denier. How ignorant is that? It's ignorance of the highest order.
[edit on 28-12-2007 by scientist]

Do you just read just a line or two and apply it mostly out of contexts just to make some point that is not really the issue? If you happened to read that entire post you would have understood that there is a point where questioning alternative theories reaches a level of absurdity by “presenting these rather extreme ideas as totally factual instead of a hypothesis that needs further proof.”

Question away Mr. Scientist for I hope you can do better than the OP.

Let’s look at his Hypothesis shall we?

The Holocaust was carried out by the Allies, not the Nazis! (Indisputable!)

Hmm, it doesn’t leave much open to debate now does it?

I have to protect the source of this information. This is not speculation, or opinion. What you are about to read is the truth.

Needs to protect the source…OK I’ll say BS, but in any case he needs to support his indisputable statement in some way don’t you think?

He then goes off on some alternative story as his main point. This is fine, but how he started the posts pretty much set the tone for the replies.

He then finishes it with,

“The allied forces continually bombed supply lines, complete with food, medical equipment, drinkable water, clothing, etc.. headed for the internment camps - this is an indisputable fact and the direct cause of the holocaust.”

His replies such as using Sat recon etc to pick and choose the right trains that are going to the camps to bomb is a good example of my point about heading in the direction of absurdity.

Reading the rest of his posts he really put forth nothing other than his alternative story. I asked point blank questions towards his posts and he either ignored them completely or said they were not an issue.

I did not find this as the right approach to generate healthy debate on just about anything. The holocaust means little to me other than a tragic event. If he wanted to debate on who was responsible then it would have been nice for him to actually provide something to debate over.

His whole point was that the Allies bombed all supply lines and even focused on supply lines to the camps and this caused the holocaust, and he basically started and ended right here with nothing to support it in anyway.

What do you think Mr. Scientist? Did he present a good debate format and follow through to some conclusion?


[edit on 28-12-2007 by Xtrozero]

Originally posted by Fuggle

I find it frustrating that people are not allowed to question any aspect of The Holocaust without being labeled a Holocaust Denier. And to think that in some countries questioning "the facts" can get them locked up. It's bizarre.

Unfortunately, it's the path of least resistance to just say that Hitler gassed six million Jews (and maybe more!) in Auschwitz.

Please explain what part was he questioning? For I would really like to know what question he put forth.


Do you know what it takes to get locked up as you say? If I said that 5.5 million died and not 6 million would I be locked up in those countries?

weed, iwas talking to the person who started the post i find it obsurd,and yes I am very open minded,that hewould say that,but thats just my opinion.

what i am talking about is that the war, "could" have been a planned event, in which the leaders of axis and allies actually were aiming to achieve something from it.

reply to post by benign.psychosis


So eye witnesses aren't objective enough proof? There's a big difference between someone claiming they were abducted by aliens, and multiple corroborating stories, from multiple sources, photographic evidence, etc... all corroborating the official story. The burden of proof is on you to disprove the stories, and evidence. Not for sane minded individuals to have to disprove your theory.

Originally posted by tankthinker
what i am talking about is that the war, "could" have been a planned event, in which the leaders of axis and allies actually were aiming to achieve something from it.

Can't help but feel you're stating the obvious here - care to elaborate?

[edit on 28-12-2007 by KilgoreTrout]

This topic frightens me, as it is getting dangerously close, as the discussion 'weaves' its way through the Thread, to becoming a sort of 'revisionist' history.

While I do not have particular citations to reference (perhaps others will know) I have seen reports of Japanese school textbooks that are changing the 'History' of Japan's Imperialism in the early 20th Century. And, Japan is, now, a fairly 'open' society.

Hitler, and the regime (Nazi, SS and Gestapo) that swelled with him, was heinous. Stalin was...well, if not worse, at least equal. The 'Iron Curtain' meant that many of the atrocities committed were kept hidden for decades...there were no 'Nuremberg Trials' to bring the truths to light, when it came to Mother Russia. Where is the outrage, as pertains to the Stalinist Regime?

Do not get me wrong...I have been to the Holocaust Museum here in DC four times...I can hardly contain my emotions. It should never be forgotten...and it should never be diminished, nor dismissed as just 'part of war'.

FYI, not that it should matter, I am not Jewish, so I have no particular axe to grind...except, I am a Human. AND, when you encounter the reality of such cruelty, Human on Human, it boggles the mind and beggars understanding, and stirs such emotion...makes it hard to even write about.

If I could summarize, the emotional content of this subject leads us down a difficult path - some cannot accept that the evil existed, when it was merely a generation, or so, ago. I plead, do not let the truth of those events be lost, or obscured, by incorrect speculations. Remember that the Internet can be a source of great wisdom, but by its very nature, it can also be a great source of propaganda that only Goebbels himself would relish to have had at his fingertips 68 years ago...

Thanks for your comments...

Does anyone know that War was declared on Germany in 1933 by all of Judea, at the beginning of Hitler's government?
I had never heard of it until a few days ago.
I AM NOT A FAN of Hitler.
If you read down at this site you'll see astonishing pronouncements by Jewish leaders, among them the reference to world domination and bringing war TO HITLER.
WAR on Germany

Also, I believe the amount of info ( lack thereof) about the Russian and Chinese holocausts were dispicable.

[edit on 28-12-2007 by Clearskies]

Originally posted by tankthinker
what i am talking about is that the war, "could" have been a planned event, in which the leaders of axis and allies actually were aiming to achieve something from it.

Ok, I'll play, if we can imagine that WWII was a planned event, we can also imagine that Hitlers final solution was a planned event as well.

What was the goal of the planners?

A) The removal of the underlying Jewish communities of Europe

The Globalist agenda needed to uproot the independent businesses of Europe in order to implement the unified state of Europe as planned by the NAZIs (a European Union?) Most European Jews had no interest in relocating to the desert after living successfully for hundreds of years among the, non Jewish European communities


B) The creation of Jewish communities in Israel

The forced relocation of Jewish settlers into a predominately Arab / Muslim(400 years) region of the world to create endless turmoil, fear and hatred in the Middle East

C) The conditioning of the European non Jewish communities of people to support a fascist regime.

The globalists convinced the German citizens that the reason for their economic hardships were not the "draconian sanctions placed on Germany by the "Treaty of Versallies" but in fact was caused by the influx of communists Jews fleeing Russia after the failed coups of early 1900's.

Once the NAZI had established the "enemy of the state" conditioning program it became easier to include any group that did not fit the globalist agenda(Jews, gypsies, trade unionists)

This conditioning also enabled an exit strategy that allowed the globalist to escape persecution by deferring blame to the German people.

The concentration camps were real. The Jews suffered the most casulties during the NAZI regime.

However the German people and the Palestinians have suffered a fair amount since the liberation.

Ultimately the Globalist agenda was achieved through the communist block nations and the European Union that followed the end of the official communist regimes.

There was established a holocaust industry that includes "thought police" to supress any real investigation into these planned events.

When alternative historians offer an non - official explanation of these manipulated events, they are quickly labeled "anti - Semites or deniers

This method of labeling creates a solidarity between the globalist fascists who caused the holocaust and the the victims of holocaust, quite brilliant really

"if we don't support freedom of speech for those who we despise, then we don't really support freedom of speech" - Noam Chomsky

Originally posted by weedwhacker
I invite a clarification because the Title belies the OP's initial sentences in his first paragraph of the post. Or, am I missing something?

To wit: The word in parentheses "(Hypothesis)" versus the claim by the OP that what is posted is 'truth'.

Comments?

the original title said proof, but was changed by mods, for good reason. I do not agree with the OP, however I think he was simply throwing out a theory, which was not a great one. But this topic is extremely important, so I think regardless of what the OP said, the topic he raised should be continued, since it seems to have lots of people's attention.

Let's not let one persons theory ruin an entire thread. This is a social debate, not something owned by anyone, even the OP.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Question away Mr. Scientist for I hope you can do better than the OP.

Let’s look at his Hypothesis shall we?

let's not. please read above as to why.

Originally posted by NWRHINO
Ok, I'll play, if we can imagine that WWII was a planned event, we can also imagine that Hitlers final solution was a planned event as well.

What was the goal of the planners?

a) uproot the current families, politicians and businessmen in power to take over and expand

b) allow unsanctioned human experiments for medical and psychological reasons

c) all the gold, jewels, paintings, etc. (which most of still hasn't been found)

d) occult aspect of the entire Nazi ideology brings on an entirely new discussion as well, since Hitler subscribed to the same school of thought as the Thule society, which was reflected in all of the Nazi symbolism. Another member was Helena Blavatsky, who influenced many people in the United States (and other Allies).

e) big business. instead of going on a serious rant, I'll mention a group of names to google together:

Fritz Thyssen + Prescott Bush + H.R. Harriman.

Also along with big business, the involvement IBM had with documenting prisoners.

The number of reasons people could have benefited from such a tragedy is countless, and the fact that many people did in fact benefit, seems fishy enough to look deeper at. When fortune starts looking like exploitation, a crime is being committed, but they aren't sloppy.

I think that he point the post is trying to make, has a lot more to do with the "scientists, political, and economic figures" that appear to have been and continue to be on both sides. Without in any way taking sides or bashing any race, it is a fact that many "allies" contributed to the Nazi rise and saved many "assets" after its "fall." By extending the war and playing various political and economic games along the way, I think it is safe to implicate the allies in a number of these deaths, as with China (an est. 600,000 chinese die every year from overwork, not counting the many other atrocities in their and many other countries), we look away and buy cheap products and watch the Olympics (post-war Germany). There are holocausts going on all around us, why do focus on this event the way we do. Native Americans and other racial groups who have had massive numbers of their races (as much as 90 to 100% of many tribes) do not form powerful Zionist lobby groups or occupy their (more factual, from the perspective that they are not using mythology or biased history to support their claims) native lands and persecute those who they have displaced.
As with so many other topics there is a fixation with a logic that moves back and forth without recourse to keeping it within the parameters of the topic, it has really reduced ATS to a one topic board with little open space for minds which would like to think free.

Just adding to a good page of replies.

2x posts

[edit on 29-12-2007 by Xtrozero]

Originally posted by scientist

a) uproot the current families, politicians and businessmen in power to take over and expand

b) allow unsanctioned human experiments for medical and psychological reasons

c) all the gold, jewels, paintings, etc. (which most of still hasn't been found)

I think these were more of a result and not a reason.

d) occult aspect of the entire Nazi ideology brings on an entirely new discussion as well, since Hitler subscribed to the same school of thought as the Thule society, which was reflected in all of the Nazi symbolism. Another member was Helena Blavatsky, who influenced many people in the United States (and other Allies).

This starts to hit home more as to why, and along with Hilter having mental/socal issues really didn't help much either.

e) big business. instead of going on a serious rant, I'll mention a group of names to google together:

Fritz Thyssen + Prescott Bush + H.R. Harriman.

I think before 1939 the Nazis were looked at as the lesser evil and America could have easily ended up as their allies against Russia if they didn’t go the direction they did.

“The Malicious Practices Act of March 21, 1933, began the mass arrests of communists and socialists, the Dauchau concentration camp was set up March 22 in a former powder milk plant, the Enabling Act March 23 made Hitler dictator and eliminated other parties such as the pro-Catholic Zentrum, radical books were burned May 10.”

Hitler was actually leaning in America’s favor in 1933 being so against the communists and socialists, and it wasn’t until 1938 that Germany allied with Japan and America went to war against Japan more than Germany.
Wouldn’t that have been interesting times if England, Germany and the US were the countries that joined together? The whole holocaust event was bad for Germany for it gave everyone a reason to label them evil.

Hitler’s anti-Semitic campaign began in 1933, but it wasn’t until 1938 that he was viewed as totally out of control, and so prior to that I can see America business involved, and also remember Germany owed the US 39 Billion from WWI.

Germany could have easily just took back the land they lost in WWI and no one would have stopped them, but each year Hitler’s madman approach to everything increasingly got worst and worst.


[edit on 29-12-2007 by Xtrozero]

Originally posted by Clearskies
Does anyone know that War was declared on Germany in 1933 by all of Judea, at the beginning of Hitler's government?
I had never heard of it until a few days ago.
I AM NOT A FAN of Hitler.
If you read down at this site you'll see astonishing pronouncements by Jewish leaders, among them the reference to world domination and bringing war TO HITLER.
WAR on Germany

Also, I believe the amount of info ( lack thereof) about the Russian and Chinese holocausts were dispicable.

[edit on 28-12-2007 by Clearskies]

Thanks for that post. I looked into it just a tad, and here is what I've found.

first some dates:
March 22, 1933. The first concentration camp - labor camp - was opened, it was Dachau. This was not intended for all Jews, but for dissenters, russian spies. Even so, there were a number of Jews there, for one reason or another.

March 23, 1933
Hitler becomes dictator by the Reichstag and gives famous speech, in which he says:

Here all action must be governed by one law: the people does not live for business, and business does not exist for capital; but capital serves business, and business serves the people. In principle, the Government will not protect the economic interests of the German people by the circuitous method of an economic bureaucracy to be organized by the State, but by the utmost furtherance of private initiative and by the recognition of the rights of property....

The Government will systematically avoid currency experiments. We are faced above all by two economic tasks of the first magnitude. The salvation of the German farmer must be achieved at all costs....

The next day, on March 24, 1933:

"Judea Declares War on Germany! Jews of all the World Unite! Boycott of German Goods! Mass Demonstrations!" - These were all headlines in the Daily Express on March 24, 1933.

There is a scan of this on Wikipedia, and if someone has the time perhaps they can peruse the Daily Express archives.

I looked in the NY Times archives and found one of the articles quoted, but you have to pay for the damn thing to get it, so I did a quick search and found the speech on another site.

You can see that the NY archive appears to be available here:
select.nytimes.com...

This is the quote for that specific article, and you can read the rest of the speech here:

There is not time now, but I hope and expect in the near future to be able to report to you the steps that have been taken and that are already under way, and the surprising and gratifying progress already made in many countries toward the success of the economic boycott in which we are engaged. Although considerable progress in that direction has already been made in Great Britain and in the United States, you will be surprised to learn that they are the least advanced and as yet the most inadequately organized of all the countries that were represented at the Amsterdam World Economic Conference, where the boycott was unanimously and enthusiastically approved by formal resolution by a rising vote.

With us in America the delay has been due in part to lack of funds and the vast territory to be covered, but it is hoped, and expected, that this condition will soon be corrected. The object-lesson we are determined to teach is so priceless to all humanity that we dare not fall.

Each of you, Jew and Gentile alike, who has not already enlisted in this sacred war should do so now and here. It is not sufficient that you buy no goods made in Germany. You must refuse to deal with any merchant or shopkeeper who sells any German-made goods or who patronizes German ships or shipping.

www.sweetliberty.org...

If this is all true, then a big piece of the story has been hidden from the eyes of most, and it shows that the Jews began an economic war against the Germany economy.

Others may want to investigate this further.

Click here for more information.

Originally posted by benign.psychosis
If this is all true, then a big piece of the story has been hidden from the eyes of most, and it shows that the Jews began an economic war against the Germany economy

Oh right, when Germany had been declaring them subhuman as well, and responsible for the loss of WW1. I can't personally see how that proves the allies carried out the holocaust, or see how that maybe means the Germans were justified to carry out genocide against them.

I say it doesnt really matter WHO carried it out,it was a horrible mark in human history,unless who did plays some role in the grander scheme of things today,i dont see the point in investigating it further.....but it does provide a nice disscussion though.

reply to post by benign.psychosis

Originally posted by apex
Oh right, when Germany had been declaring them subhuman as well, and responsible for the loss of WW1. I can't personally see how that proves the allies carried out the holocaust, or see how that maybe means the Germans were justified to carry out genocide against them.

To add to that. If these camps were created by the Germans to protect the Jews from antisemitism,as your theory states, you have to look at who started the whole antisemitism against the Jews in the first place. Hitler, the Nazi regime, so why would they have the need to protect someone from their own atrocities? Why the gas chambers in the camps? Does it matter if there were traces of gas in them? The fact that they existed should make you shudder. What evidence do you have that makes survivors' testimonies completely irrelevant or canceled out?

[edit on 29-12-2007 by Dienekes]