The Holocaust was carried out by the Allies, not the Nazis! (Hypothesis)

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

There are far more threads on ATS promoting theories that the Holocaust did not happen. They generate far more posts than any thread discussing the actual conspiracies that occured in the World War 2 era. If you want points then attacking the validity of recorded history in regards to the persecution of the Jews is the way to go. Should those of us with a genuine interest in historical revisionism ignore such ill conceived arguments or actually share our knowledge to aid to raising of general awareness?

Well seems like you didn't get my point. I don't care how many threads are out there and I could care less for the number of posts or the points for that matter. And I'm not even attacking the validity of history which btw neither one of us has been testimony too. You wan't to rais your general awareness? You are free to do so my friend. At the same time I have the right to express my opinion, especially when is formulated in a decent and educated maner. Right?

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
I see nowhere on this thread or elsewhere on ATS the promotion of a 'victimizing attitude of the jewish people'. I am hard pressed to find it in the mass media - if you only ever pick up books about the Jewish experience then that is all you will know about - there is a vast body of information out there from every angle. The 'jewish people' can only be blamed so far and are not responsible for the limitation of your sources.

I didn't specifically say ATS and I wasn't referring to this board at all. I was talking in general. And please don't give me that 'if you only pick up books... ' talk because I didn't present my library card here, neither the list of the books I've read.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Start a thread on those genocides then. Do a search and you will find some have already been mentioned. Check the post count.

Some has been already mentioned? How ironic. Maybe those don't deserve the same attention as Holocaust. Maybe when we talk about jewish people we're talking about human lifes. Other nationalities are maybe statistics.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Germany is still profiting from the Holocaust, many corporations throughout the world are still fat on profits they made using the yoke of Nazism.

If you think that you have a thread to discuss on any of the above I would gladly contribute - but we are talking about those things in other threads. It has no relevance here and that is not why it is being discussed here.

As far as I know who is still profiting from Holocaust was and is Rothschild family. And no, Germany has been and still being ripped to the bone by paying jewish around the world. I'll be waiting gladly to see if Izraeli Government will be willing to pay for all the lives and destruction of Palestina.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
We are not, well I certainly wasn't. During the '80s there was a 'fashion' for holocaust depictions and the emphasis overwhelmingly was on the Jewish experience - but luckily for me I don't rely on the mass media for my education.

Well where do you rely? On books written by jewish people or holocaust survivors? Or in the history texts written by God knows who and printed out to educate the new generations? Oh sorry, every source of information is a good source of information Seams like you don't rely on the mass media for information. You just pick the source of your information.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
It should never be over and forgotten. It should be fully examined to prevent us from falling victim to the same thing again. It is you that is being fooled, while you believe that this is all about the Jews you fail to see that it was about anyone who could not defend themselves against the might of totalitarianism.

Well it shouldn't be forgotten for you my friend (if you don't mind me calling you friend) but since this board is about personal opinion and not what masses think, then I can say that I had enough with this. You're 'accusing' me of being fooled for my believe when I never expressed any believe. I never stated that holocaust didn't happen, nor I said it happened. And no you're wrong, is not about who could not defend themselves. Was a war and an bloody sick and crazy one. Like jewish people died other people too.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

It was the Jews that provided the money of course, not as bankers, but as business and home owners, holders of bank accounts and stock portfolios - all this was taken away from them to fund the expansion of the SS Military Industiral complex. When we forget they can do it again, not long to go by my estimation.

You mean like they are doing today for somebody's else Military Industrial Complex? And wait, I think they already did it after few years. Maybe not with gas chambers but with raids, bombings, special forces, green, yellow and red hats, and maybe nukes too. History keeps on repeating no matter what lesson do we learn from it doesn't it?

Anyway, I hate picking on other people posts and to be fair I don't care. All I care off is not being judged when I say what I think. And sorry to repeat it again but unfortunately you sir didn't get the essence of my post. And to bad for one who doesn't educate himself from mass media or from the ideological food for masses.

[edit on 27-12-2007 by Telos]

Hitler caused the holocaust and the murder of six million Jews and some homosexuals and gypsies and political dissidents, and certainly the allies aggravated the bad conditions of the death camps.

One of my problems with the OP's posts are that he suggested that prisoners were moved to the camps _for their protection_. I disagree with that. My understanding is that the prisoners were moved to the camps to get them out of society and so that they could provide relatively inexpensive labour. Ultimately, of course, the survivors were to be moved as far east as possible where they wouldn't be an eye-sore.

Holocaust Survivor Viktor Frankl's book on the subject is an interesting read. Aside from his mentioning the hospital's ration of seven or eight aspirin a month (due to the destruction of supplies brought in by trains), he also mentioned that the other prisoners who were granted authority by the Nazis were the most inhumane in their treatment of the other prisoners.

In other words, he wrote that the most savage abuses were by fellow inmates (I'm not saying he wrote that the SS were best chums with the prisoners).

And, of course, the Nazis and guards and Himmler and Hitler were where the bucks stopped.

I do think it's wrong that people aren't allowed to state their opinion that it was maybe only, say, 5,999,999 Jews gassed at Auschwitz instead of 6,000,000. Especially when they've actually researched the subject.

F

PS -- And Scientist: kudos to you for bringing up the germ-warfare conducted against America's indigenous people.

PPS -- It's easy to forget that several concentration camps were overrun by typhoid fever, which may have been almost as efficient as Zyklon B in killing people.




[edit on 27/12/07 by Fuggle]

deleted

[edit on 27-12-2007 by weedwhacker]

Natural progression of disease by the ignorant does not count as bio war, and please do not bring up pox blankets either.

Originally posted by Fuggle
Hitler caused the holocaust and the murder of six million Jews and some homosexuals and gypsies and political dissidents, and certainly the allies aggravated the bad conditions of the death camps.

One of my problems with the OP's posts are that he suggested that prisoners were moved to the camps _for their protection_. I disagree with that. My understanding is that the prisoners were moved to the camps to get them out of society and so that they could provide relatively inexpensive labour. Ultimately, of course, the survivors were to be moved as far east as possible where they wouldn't be an eye-sore.

Actually Jews were moved to ghettos created for the purpose to lock them away in their own little hell. The concentration camps came later to exterminate them. The was just one purpose for concentration camps in Poland and that was to kill.

reply to post by Xtrozero


Well, so says you and whatever you've read or studied which might be more than I've read or studied, but I think you might not be entirely accurate.

I'm not disputing that the ghettos were hell or that too many people died in the death camps.

F

EDITED for irony.

[edit on 27/12/07 by Fuggle]

Originally posted by Fuggle
reply to post by Xtrozero

 

Well, so says you and whatever you've read or studied which might be more than I've read or studied, but I think you might not be entirely accurate.

I'm not disputing that the ghettos were hell or that too many people died in the death camps.

F

EDITED for irony.

[edit on 27/12/07 by Fuggle]

Concentration camps were not needed to contain Jews since the ghettos, which housed 10 times what a camp could, were already in place. Majority of the Jews sent to the concentration camps were sent from the ghettos which housed millions of Jews. It’s all about the timeline and the ever increasing persecution on the Jews up to the final solution started.

Not much to debate on this part....

reply to post by Xtrozero


Xtrozero,

Good point and you maybe you're right.

But...I can still consider some other reasons as to why the populace of the ghettos were forcibly migrated to the camps, under horrible, inhumane conditions.

Lebensraum was much of the original modus operandi of Hitler's plans of WW2.

It doesn't seem improbable that the Nazis, drowning in their infamous beauracracy, would continue as long as remotely possible, their plan to move non-Aryans as eastward as possible.

If this meant moving them to a more convenient (and out-of-sight-out-of-mind) location, like Bergen-Belsen or Buchenwald, or wherever--then it'd still seem that whatever governmental arm (and Himmler) were still doing their job.

If this contradicted the facts as reported by the generals who were fighting the war, well, so what (Army trying to move east or hold the lines while internal beaurocrats were trying to ship-out undesirables)?


I agree--maybe you're right and I'm wrong. If so, I apologise for wasting your time. After all, Certainly the SS didn't hesitate to murder in cold blood any other number of times.

F

Originally posted by Fuggle
But...I can still consider some other reasons as to why the populace of the ghettos were forcibly migrated to the camps, under horrible, inhumane conditions.
Lebensraum was much of the original modus operandi of Hitler's plans of WW2.

It doesn't seem improbable that the Nazis, drowning in their infamous beauracracy, would continue as long as remotely possible, their plan to move non-Aryans as eastward as possible..

I don't know of any other reasons. Can you think of some? The ghettos and 5 of the 6 big concentration camps were all in Poland.

If this contradicted the facts as reported by the generals who were fighting the war, well, so what (Army trying to move east or hold the lines while internal beaurocrats were trying to ship-out undesirables)?

Honestly when you look at it all I think it was just a crazy man with a crazy plan. We most likely would be speaking German today if they didn't do so many crazy events.

When they invaded Poland they destroyed EVERY building in Warsaw…everyone. Hitler ordered Paris to be flattened too, but his generals there disobeyed him. Hitler continually changed the plans for the Africa front from those of his genius general advisors. Those changes cost him that front and those changes were of a madman. These type events go on and on.

So the question is why would a person put so much time and effort into the killing of Jews when if he just embraced them he would have had a million more soldiers and great minds that would have gave him things like the A-bomb years before we made one.

The mind of a madman is the only answer I can come up with.

If Hitler was mad then a true demon that walked the earth was Stalin. I do believe Russia killed millions of Jews too, but in this case they died from pure evil incarnated.


[edit on 28-12-2007 by Xtrozero]

well since the allies and the axis worked together (were on the same side the whole time during the war) it can be pinned on both of them.

reply to post by tankthinker


Tankthinker, what are you talking about?

And as for battlefields of the war--I think it's interesting that pop-historians often abstain from mentioning that ENIGMA was cracked as early as it was.

Rommel may only have been up against Monty--But Monty knew what Rommel was going to do.

So, enough about the battlelfiends in The European (and African) Theatres.

Anyway, few here disagree that Hitler murdered six million Jews in the holocaust.

F

Edit: for including "~African~".

[edit on 28/12/07 by Fuggle]

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by scientist

since when does bio-warfare not count? That's ridiculous.

Natural progression of disease by the ignorant does not count as bio war, and please do not bring up pox blankets either.

fine, then don't bring up starvation. That's a natural cause of death too, should that not be counted?

I am convinced now, more than ever there is something to this entire hypothesis, as I have held for quite a while. The amount of ignorance (as in, people accusing others of being holocaust deniers at whim) into this matter shocks me. Not in the jaw-dropping kind, but in the losing-all-faith-in-open-minded discussion kind.

[edit on 28-12-2007 by scientist]

Originally posted by scientist
fine, then don't bring up starvation. That's a natural cause of death too then.

Let’s get back the first post of the statement of "Americans killed 16 million Indians".

This is what I was raising the BS flag on.

You my friend are jumping all over the place of history for the time period that you are suggesting with the starvation is mainly the 1800s.

As far back as 1493 Columbus brought Influenza to the new world, following that there was smallpox that wiped-out the Mayans, Aztecs, and the Incans by 1530. With the huge smallpox epidemic came the measles that the Spanish explorer DeSoto’s 1539 exploration party was responsible for killing 75% of all American Indians in the Southwest. By 1545 other plagues were in America too such as Bubonic, pneumonic, and typhus.

Up to 1585 all this has been done by the Spanish and the Portuguese and I don’t see too many blaming them for anything even though by 1620 up to 95% of the Indian population was gone by diseases.

From 1700 to 1900 these same diseases continued to reduce the Indian population even more, such as Russian fur trades wipeout 80% of the Aleut population in Alaska in the mid 1700s as example. Instead of 100,000s to millions dying there were thousands because their population was reduced too much to account for anything much higher.

By the 1800s when America finally started their atrocities on the Indians there just was not that many left. This doesn't reduce the evils that America is responsible for, but in the big picture the true villian was the Spanish in many ways. (can we say the distruction of 10,000s of Mayan tablets as example)

But with all this we still get the America killed 16 million Indians or something close to that. In the end it is just another bash America for everything...even things before we were even a country...hehe

Originally posted by scientist

I am convinced now, more than ever there is something to this entire hypothesis, as I have held for quite a while. The amount of ignorance (as in, people accusing others of being holocaust deniers at whim) into this matter shocks me. Not in the jaw-dropping kind, but in the losing-all-faith-in-open-minded discussion kind.

[edit on 28-12-2007 by scientist]

Because somewhere is the truth and that truth most likely leans heavily towards the holocaust by the Germans. Now were there 6 million killed or 3 million, and how many did the Russians kill that was labeled German killings? These are the areas that I feel people should investigate, but when people start to deny it ever really happened, or the Germans were not really part of it, or there was a few 100,000 killed at best is when we start down the path that even though you and others feel these are very important questions many, including myself, feel that our time is wasted.

The reason for the waste is this is almost like a debate where people debate on the Romans and what happened during their time and a group comes along with a statement of “the Romans never actually existed”. This too is thinking outside the box, but it is so far from known events that it is not just unconventional thinking but absurd thinking all the while presenting these rather extreme ideas as totally factual instead of a hypothesis that needs further proof.

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by scientist
fine, then don't bring up starvation. That's a natural cause of death too then.

Let’s get back the first post of the statement of "Americans killed 16 million Indians".

This is what I was raising the BS flag on.

You my friend are jumping all over the place of history for the time period that you are suggesting with the starvation is mainly the 1800s.

actually, i was the one being on topic. I was referring to the Nazi Concentration Camps, and trying to say that it's just as unfair to ignore all the indians that died via pox blankets as it is to ignore all the people that starved to death (or died of other natural but stress related causes), and weren't necessarily shot or gassed.

For example, what if, instead of gas chambers and firing squads - they used blankets with smallpox? All of a sudden, it's ok?

The rest of your post was sort of pointless, since it was based on a false assumption. I take partial blame for not being more clear, but I hoped that it would be assumed I was talking about the original topic.

[edit on 28-12-2007 by scientist]

Originally posted by Xtrozero
when people start to deny it ever really happened

PLEASE please please link me to where someone said these things in this thread. I have already requested this 3 times now, but no one has been able to do it.

THis is exactly what I am talking about. People can't even question alternative theories without being called a denier. How ignorant is that? It's ignorance of the highest order.

[edit on 28-12-2007 by scientist]

reply to post by scientist



I find it frustrating that people are not allowed to question any aspect of The Holocaust without being labeled a Holocaust Denier. And to think that in some countries questioning "the facts" can get them locked up. It's bizarre.

Unfortunately, it's the path of least resistance to just say that Hitler gassed six million Jews (and maybe more!) in Auschwitz.

F





[edit on 28/12/07 by Fuggle]

Hello,

I find ATS Forum threads to be lively, to say the least. While engrossed in paging down and reading various posts I find I occasionally forget to look up at the original Title, and the Original Post. Just went and looked...I invite a clarification because the Title belies the OP's initial sentences in his first paragraph of the post. Or, am I missing something?

To wit: The word in parentheses "(Hypothesis)" versus the claim by the OP that what is posted is 'truth'.

Comments?

You should be hung as a traitor of the United states and the planet!

Originally posted by jkrog08
You should be hung as a traitor of the United states and the planet!

Um, to whom are you referring? Just wondering, we were all new here at one time and had to discover the protocols to use and abide by.

I, like you, am fairly new at posting here. So, no harm, no foul...

Welcome