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The Holocaust was carried out by the Allies, not the Nazis! (Hypothesis)

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posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 05:03 PM
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Originally posted by benign.psychosis
By "proper history", do you mean the "official story"?

I think we ALL know better than that.


Hmmm, are we "denying" the consensus of the majority of historians then? You seem to ignore 1st hand testimony, facts and physical evidence to accept your point of view and supplementing it with limited support for your arguement.

Were not the Nazi's responsible for the forced inccarceration and systematic killing of Jews, Gypsies and other "undesireables" who were innocent civillians ?




posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 05:16 PM
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reply to post by benign.psychosis
 



Belief is what fuels cause and effect in many circumstances, especially these. Belief in the latent, and false, premise of racial superiority.



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 05:22 PM
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Originally posted by scientist
maybe not in germany, but the US had it's fingers in plenty of pies during the 1930s. For example, the monroe doctrine along with various military interventions. We sent 5000 marines to Nicaragua in 1926 to counter a revolution, and we stayed for another 7 years after that. I would call that the opposite of isolationism.

In fact, between 1900 and 1933, we intervened in Cuba 4 times, Nicaragua twice, Panama six times, Guatemala once, and Honduras 7 times. And when I say intervened, I mean as in the US sent military troops to stay there for a few years. Again, the opposite of isolationism.


To Europe we were mainly isolationist, but not in our own backyard where we were very active. A big part of this I think was due to WWI with the desire for the US not to get tangled up in something like that again. Also our military was crap back then with antiquated equipment, and so we really didn’t have the capabilities to do anything.




Let me go on:

The US was well aware of the situation in Germany before the mid 30s. In 1934 there was a resolution passed in the Senate regarding Hitler's anti-semitic policies. It was brushed under the table. Roosevelt and Secretary of State Cordell Hull didn't make a peep.

When Mussolini invaded Ethiopia in 1935, the US put an embargo on munitions, but big business was allowed to keep sending oil to Italy, which was the primary reason they were able to carry on the war. The next year, a Fascist rebellion sparked in Spain, and Roosevelt passed a neutrality act, which effectively allowed Hitler and Mussolini to support Francisco Franco.


This statement above sure supports we were trying to stay neutral in Europe hence more of an isolationist. Honestly, I do not think the US cared much about any country over there but England, and at that time what did the US considered worst to the their interest Germany or Communism in the 30s?




FDR repeatedly deceived the American people during the period before Pearl Harbor... He was like the physician who must tell the patients lies for the patient's own good.

The point being, we did not intervene in the war because of some moral stance. My own opinion is that we didn't intervene on purpose, until it was extremely advantageous to do so.


And I'm missing your point. # hit the Fan in 39, so everything prior to that was based on a totally different picture with totally different objectives. In 39 the US got the wakeup call and it was at that point we started to put great effort into our military that at the invasion of Poland we would have been the guy bring a knife to a gun fight.

Everything the US does is based on national interest/objectives...everything. As a nation we try to base our actions on moral values, but that doesn’t mean that is the top priority. With the Nazis, if they were not so extreme in everything they did then the initial land grab that they first accomplished would not have been countered and we would most likely have worked with them on some future date. For a big part of that was the backbreaking laws imposed on them from WWI, and the US could have quietly aggreed with them, but what they did from 39 to the end of the war is what got us moving in the direction that they had to be stopped.

[edit on 26-12-2007 by Xtrozero]



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 05:57 PM
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LOL. No problem. The funny thing is that after I posted it, I also thought I mistakenly typed "Aliens". I considered changing it to the Allieds, but figured, "Hmm.. maybe more people will look at it now."



I don't think that is funny at all. We are getting deceived too much already. So I don't like how you try to get more people to read your believes (not the truth) by deceiving them, in a small way yes, but still ...
It's hard to believe what you stated, that's why I signed up actually, trying to respond ... takes some time though.



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 07:26 PM
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reply to post by benign.psychosis
 


No proof. No documents, no witness accounts, no evidence of any kind is given by the OP. He also has a loose grasp on history as shown by this:




they had top notch intelligence and sat recon pictures


sat as in satellite? In WWII? uhuh...Your "Hypothesis" as said in the title or "fact" as said in the first sentence is absurd; not because of the concepts within but because it is completely unfounded.

Come back with some evidence.



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 07:37 PM
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So lets see.......... the Jewish people died because the Allies bomb the supplies routes, but if those routes were bomb, how the Jews got to the camps in the firts place? The Jews started to get rounded up in 1933 and is documented that already a million had died in these camps before the implementation of the "Final Solution" in 1942 and was then in 1942 that the mass round up and killing of Jews started. So if the railroads were unusable how they got there?

The reason why more Jews died between 1942 and the end of the war than the previous 9 years, was because in 1941 Hitler gave the order for the "Final Solution" to go foward and the death factories were built. All of that is well documented with testimony of many SS officials, higher and lower ranking not only Jewish escapees with emotional distress.

[edit on 26-12-2007 by Bunch]



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 08:10 PM
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Originally posted by Frontkjemper
reply to post by Nickdfresh
 


Hehe thanks for the reply

...

1.) History IS written by the victors. It´s all around us, and even younger ones as myself can remember a lot of the propaganda being pushed. (Soviet Union, and the *War on Terror*)
...

I know you can´t be arrested in America for questioning the holocaust, however where I come from, you can. And in my humble opinion, that´s wrong.

Peace


FK


Well man, don't pretend that all things are equal when it comes to potential "victors."

We know the Nazi Germans were already referring to the Holocaust in euphemistic terms even before it began in earnest (i.e. substituting the word "evacuation" for killing).

Secondly, as far as me calling you an "anti-Semite," well perhaps I was a bit confused by your avatar which almost seems to have a neo-fascist symbolism or connotation. But 2+2 does not equal 5. My apologies.

And as far as the whole whining about not being able to question the Holocaust, well that is all fine I think. The problem I have with deniers is that they act as if the historical record, calculated by historians, eyewitness, scholars, and academics (not Allied gov'ts) was somehow an extraordinary claim when in fact they are guilty of an Orwellian "double-speak" of their own. In fact, the Holocaust deniers and skeptics are the ones making extraordinary claims and extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. None of which is offered in this silly thread...

And I am as against the "War on Terror" semantics, hollow blanket statements, and generalizations as you are, if not far more so...

And I also don't think you should go to jail for denying the Holocaust. but I also think think you shouldn't get a job teaching or as a scholar much like I think a scientist won't be able to get a job if he believes the earth is flat of the moon is made of cheese...

[edit on 26/12/07 by Nickdfresh]

[edit on 26/12/07 by Nickdfresh]



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 08:24 PM
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Originally posted by benign.psychosiskunkworks.

The point of view has no relavence.

When a raindrop falls, it falls. This is reality.

When a human describes it as beautiful, it is not.

When a human describes it as horrible, it is not.

When a human professes that it is from god, it is not.

When a human professes that it is not from god, it is not.

What happens... it has.

This is the truth. Belief is of no relavavnce.

What is said, what is intened, what is implied, what is promised - it is not reality.

Reality is the action.

The action - that is real. The action - it's effect - is real.


Oops ! Your anagrams are showing !

Your paring epitaphs imply a mechanistic view of the universe

Rene Descartes inspired dualism

Dualism inspires racism and xenophobia

Know your anagrams know

"Treat well those who are good,
also treat well those who are not good,
thus is goodness attained" Tao Te Ching (49)

[edit on 26-12-2007 by NWRHINO]



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 08:47 PM
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reply to post by benign.psychosis
 


I didn't read all the posts I will admit to that. Benign- are you 100% sure about this- Posting false information on purpose will perhaps get you banned.


But I will say this I wasn't there and I can only rely on what was in the US History books. But sometimes I wonder if the History books are 100% correct- I ask this because I learned about Hawaii and how it was a royal monarchy and how it was uprooted by US troops around 1893.

www.hawaiian-roots.com...

My point is I don't remember this in the history books. Anything that will stain America I would bet you wouldn't find it in the History books.



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 08:52 PM
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Funny, but I recall reading a lot about the US massacring Native American tribes and the internment of the Nisei Japanese in "history" texts...

In any case, most history book texts written by lazy second rate historians for greedy, uncaring publishers will give you a very base, limited view of history...

The next step is to seek our authors that are somewhat scholarly in their approach and read them...



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 09:04 PM
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can everyone just stop fighting about it?

does it really matter who was to blame?

is this what the dead wanted us to do to respect them?

i say no ones right. so lets just try to remember Blaming people for the past never brought any Good of it.

both sides. lets give silence to the dead. not mockerys.

Please.

and please lets all try to respect each other, if not for ourselves then for the sake of the death everyone has so much grief over.



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 09:19 PM
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reply to post by muzzleflash
 


How could everyone have forgotton good will?

Forgiveness

Buddhist Thought
"What I suggest regarding apologies and forgiveness would have little or no meaning without prior knowledge of the program or teaching as realized and expounded by the Buddha. Our consciousness or “conscience” is our guide on the Path. It not only allows but insists that we have a good feeling when we do good deeds, and shame when we do something bad. To continue on the Path, the Eightfold Noble Path shows us the necessity of both apologies and forgiveness- it is simply the right thing to do. It is the eraser, if you will, in order to make adjustments and corrections on the Path. "
www.greatwisdomcenter.org...

Jesus in the bible
"For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. (Matthew 6:14-15) "

www.messageofjesus.co.uk...

Mohammed
"During his lifetime, Prophet Mohammed endured insults and ridicule on a daily basis. His opponents mocked his message and used physical violence to stop him from challenging the status quo.

At no stage during this ordeal did the Prophet lose his temper or react to these provocations. Tradition has it that he would, instead, offer a prayer of forgiveness to those who showed contempt for him."

saluton.blogspot.com...

" Hinduism
The concept of performing atonement from one's wrongdoing (Prayaschitta — Sanskrit: Penance), and asking for forgiveness is very much a part of the practice of Hinduism. Praya#ta is related to the law of Karma. Karma is a sum of all that an individual has done, is currently doing and will do. The effects of those deeds and these deeds actively create present and future experiences, thus making one responsible for one's own life, and the pain in others"

that + alot more at
en.wikipedia.org...

Judaism
"It is forbidden to be obdurate and not allow yourself to be appeased. On the contrary, one should be easily pacified and find it difficult to become angry. When asked by an offender for forgiveness, one should forgive with a sincere mind and a willing spirit. . . forgiveness is natural to the seed of Israel."
And for this instance, i Trust Wikipedia as a good source here. just read the articles.

If you have any ability to read, i hope this stuff makes sense for you.



[edit on 26-12-2007 by muzzleflash]



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 10:11 PM
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Completely wrong!! I looked into Historical Revisionism a long time ago. I also studied, extensively, accounts from the survivors and accounts from SS sevice men. I have spent time with people who were survivers. I can not let this crap be posted without commenting on it. You are wrong. Just plain wrong. There are certain points that mat be correct. Namely, that the Alies did not do anything to help the situation, and did plenty to agravate it. But to claim that the Nazi's did not plan on killing all non-Aryans, is just rediculous. They did not kill a lot of survivors for a simple reason, The guards knew to get the hell out of there when the Alies came close. And they got close, a lot faster than anyone expected. I want the person who wrote this load of steaming crap to go to your neerest Jewish Temple and lay on the ground and ask for forgiveness. And pray to your non-Aryan God and ask for forgiveness. Only someone supremely ignorant coud have ever written this. I would bet the name of who he is protecting as a source may have Supreme Empirial Dragon in it.



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 11:39 PM
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reply to post by Leyla
 






But I will say this I wasn't there and I can only rely on what was in the US History books.


You are kidding right?

50 Million Pages of Nazi Records in ITS Bad Arolsen Archive Made Public
judaism.about.com...
Notice>>>Nazi Records



After 60 years of being hidden away from the public, Nazi records about the 17.5 million people - Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, mental patients, handicapped, political prisoners and other undesirables – they persecuted during the regime's 12 years in power will be open to the public.


You think it is only documented in American history books?




The Mauthausen concentration camp’s “Totenbuch”, or Death Book, records in meticulous handwriting how on April 20, 1942, a prisoner was shot in the back of the head every two minutes for 90 hours. The Mauthausen camp commandant ordered these executions as a birthday present for Hitler.







The immensity of information in the archives will provide Holocaust researchers with work for generations. Holocaust scholars have already started to revise their estimates of the number of camps run by the Nazis according to new information being found. And the archives present a formidable obstacle to Holocaust deniers.


this is disturbing,

Belgian Authorities Destroy Holocaust Records
www.brusselsjournal.com...

I am terrified for humanity,
This is what frightens me about the internet propaganda.

I have fought this battle before.

www.haaretz.com...



[edit on 123131p://bThursday2007 by Stormdancer777]



posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 12:08 AM
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Welcome to the game of war, where the winner gets to write history as they feel fit. Blocking an enemies line of supplies is a strategy to squeeze an economy so dry that they opposing army has no choice but to call it quits. Denying the holocaust is ignorance, but to keep throwing it in everyones faces well...that is just priceless. Why did they not let the Census bureau count how many Jews were lost after the World War? Not counting how much people were lost will go along way because then you can exaggerate the numbers and well get everyone to feel sorry for you.
Am I sorry the Holocaust happened? Of course I am, it would not be normal if you did not feel sorry for the victims. Am I pissed that the Census did not do their job after the war? Of course because now people throw it in everyones faces so we can feel even more sorry.



posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 12:17 AM
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I fail to see the OP's point to this post. I understand what is being said about the bombing of railroads and I see that as a silly argument as to who was really to blame for the Holocast. I've read about half of the posts and all I can see is a neo-nazi trying to do what neo-nazis do.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... it's a duck.

I ask the OP... is this a family thing? You know, are you trying to prove that your family wasn't really killing people? Or are you just trying to cause an argument and general hard feelings?

And by the way... as soon as you call the Jews Zionist, everyone on here sees right through you. You are either an Arab terrorist or a skinhead. Well... not nessecarily, but I thnk you see my point.



posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 01:35 AM
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well ill be its the allies fault
some could be the bombings the demolishing of infastructure the the act of destroying the ability of the enemy to arm itself take away the ability to feed an army and you take away the ability to sustain long campian take away the oil and you stop the tanks and the heating for troops, do anything to demorilise the enemy this is war this is what war is and this is what happened from both sides,and this happend from the alies at around 1941-42

but this
systematic rounding up of certain creed of people the labour camps the kill squads the taking of certain leadrers of the comunity the removal of the ability to defend youreself in the land of youre birth due to a reliegiest or color of you eyes and skin or hair forced removal of younger children to be doctoined in the way of the powers to be the death of people not even associated with the war ie gypsies or anyone that looked like them
and when did this happen date stamped fact it happened 1937-1939 and beyond .

i am not not good at writting. but i know how to read you op should have a go at it . what aload of bulltish



posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 01:40 AM
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Originally posted by scientist
it would not shock me at all to find that the number have been artificially inflated for political reasons.


Actually dude, the numbers are not accurate. only 6 million jews were recorded as being killed in the camps.
The number is actually much much higher...

and yeah, im not that pleased with the theory in the OP



posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 01:57 AM
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Originally posted by Odessy

Originally posted by scientist
it would not shock me at all to find that the number have been artificially inflated for political reasons.


Actually dude, the numbers are not accurate. only 6 million jews were recorded as being killed in the camps.
The number is actually much much higher...

and yeah, im not that pleased with the theory in the OP


so what's the real number, and what is your source? And why is the number reported lower than the actual?

p.s. I don't have an opinion on numbers. Just stating I wouldn't put it past anyone to manipulate statistics.

[edit on 27-12-2007 by scientist]



posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 02:41 AM
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reply to post by scientist
 


ill look for it tomorrow, i promise, but its almost 4am here and im gonna crash.

Im half Israeli. I'm pretty sure I heard it somewhere in the holocaust museum both in Israel and in Washington D.C.

but the number reported is lower because not all the Jews killed were recorded in the concentration camps. there were many killed that were never on record or on paper, for varying reasons

[edit on 27-12-2007 by Odessy]



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