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We should rid ourselves of America...

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posted on Jan, 25 2008 @ 09:10 PM
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posted on Jan, 25 2008 @ 09:15 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


Whoa I am agreeing with you.

**runs off to check pigs to make sure they don't have capes or wings and are in fact firmly on the ground**


[edit on 25-1-2008 by WraothAscendant]



posted on Jan, 25 2008 @ 09:29 PM
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reply to post by Xtrozero
 


Then you should happily give all your wealth back to the schmucksin the third world who you're leaching off of, right?



posted on Jan, 26 2008 @ 06:35 AM
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reply to post by ItsHumanNature
 


well, that's the slippery slope logical fallacy. it's not necessarily true that this would happen.

reply to post by WraothAscendant
 


we were bound to agree on SOMETHING eventually



posted on Jan, 26 2008 @ 08:52 AM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
we wouldn't immediately do that whole "open borders" thing. it would be a gradual transition process. first we'd actually make the countries self-sufficient and thriving, THEN we'd open the borders. this way, we prevent the flood of employment.


I think you need to focus your ideas on how to do this first before diving into how to accomplish end results. Once a realistic solution to how this is accomplished can be found, then we can move forward.


Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
it's actually not due to lack of land, it's more a mismanagement of land. you can build up...


The world doesn't have hundreds of Donald Trumps willing to build skyscrapers (which is what you are suggesting). They are a huge investment which requires a the investment to be made back via rents, etc. Most companies wouldn't make the investment because they will not be assured of profit to be gained. Do you have sources that it is due to mismangement instead of lack? People need to be willing to sell land for it to be purchases. Who would pay for the purchase?



firefighters, first responders, police forces, etc etc
there are plenty of jobs that they could do... hell, we'd take military funding away, give it to public service and create those jobs for them.
they have the training, they just need a few specifics.


And you just turned us into a police state. Crime is motivated by need. They want something they don't have. Your system will eliminate that (in theory - yet to be proven), so if you system works 100%, there wouldn't be a need for that many services.


farmers would be subsidized for the food that goes to those markets. obviously not all of it would or the rest of the world would starve.


And who is paying for that? If you say the government, then that would be taxes. If it is taxes, then that is more out of my pocket, which contradicts your first point. Remember, nothing is free. It has to be paid for someway.


the government. they'll be put into healthcare facilities. those that can't be rehabilitated to be fit for working will be taken care of.


Once again, taxes.



well, i never said pure capitalism... it's capitalistic.

Actually, it is socialistic. Stop deluding yourself.



and who decides it...well, i haven't worked that out yet.


That is very key to what you are proposing.

You have already stated that you haven't studied economics very intensely. I recommend that you do. Economics is the foundation of what you are proposing and without a study of the basics, you seem to be missing several points.

You seem concerned that there are children starving in Africa. That is fine and dandy and all, but take a look at what is going on in the US. Children are starving. Children are suffering from lack of heat, shelter, nutrition. This is in our own backyard.

I've donated 1/4 of my yearly salary to Habitat for Humanity in supplies they needed to build homes for the homeless. Add the thousands in supplies to Katrina Survivors (someone forgot they had infants when they set up centers). I was even talked about on the radio for donating my bonus to Children's Hospital. You know what? It is all a drop in the bucket.

Instead of thinking globally on how to fix problems, start with something smaller. Nationally, still too big. State, probably still too big. What can you do in your community to make a difference?

I believe you said you were from St. Louis? (If I am wrong, please forgive me, I read a lot of these threads). Their unemployment rate was around 5.5% last year alone. If you can come up with a solution to employee 100% of the people looking for jobs... to take care of our healthcare system... our problems with eduction... in just your home town.... then grow the system from there... you might have something.



posted on Jan, 26 2008 @ 09:37 AM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by resistor
Ideally, the regional nation state should serve the needs and proclivities of the people in that region, as they determine. Different cultures and creeds will have different ideas of what's best, so why not allow them self determination?

because not all ideas for "what's best" are equally effective... or right.


Different peoples have different needs. Who are you to decide for them what is best or right, or to rise and try to save them from themselves? People shouldn’t try to play God. It always ends in disaster.


more local government doesn't work... it actually deprives many individuals of rights as the tyranny of the majority is more likely on a smaller scale. in larger governments there are safeguards to protect against this... but in a local town, the minority groups get oppressed.




well...it'll sure as hell stop mass scale wars like we've seen in the past. china and america will NEVER attack each other due to their economic dependence.
that's just one example



Where is the evidence?
A line of reasoning with supporting evidence would be so wonderful right now.
That way i can actually discuss things, bring in counterpoints and counterevidence instead of just asking for evidence.


i'm talking borders
no nations, no wars. it's kind of simple.



It's kind of simple minded. Borders are a natural thing that grow up around cultures and regions. You can try to remove them and meld all people together, but what you're going to get is violence until they are reestablished. Yugoslavia is a great recent example, as well as current Iraq. All eliminating borders will do is present a power grabbing opportunity which will inevitably be seized upon, resulting in the people acting to preserve their culture/region/way of life, which is in fact war.

What you are proposing is globalism, whether you want to admit it or not. It may not be your intention, but it would be the result. What you are suggesting would require a global Pax Romana; enforcement by tyranny. None for me thanks. This world is not and will never be any type of utopia, and all the best laid plans of mice and men can't make it one. All you ever get by centralizing power is a bigger stronger tyranny.



posted on Jan, 26 2008 @ 01:20 PM
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Originally posted by resistor
Different peoples have different needs.


way to state the obvious, but the basic needs are still the same. food, shelter, clothing, education, etc.



Who are you to decide for them what is best or right, or to rise and try to save them from themselves?


well, the idea has nothing to do with infringing on personal sovereignty...



People shouldn’t try to play God. It always ends in disaster.


1: sweeping generalization
2: if we aren't going to play god, the part will go unplayed.




It's kind of simple minded.


as is not responding to those parts of your post where i skewer your arguments.



Borders are a natural thing that grow up around cultures and regions. You can try to remove them and meld all people together, but what you're going to get is violence until they are reestablished.


i'm not trying to forcibly "meld" people together. the idea is that the "melding" would happen through slow diffusion of peoples and ideas in a world that is truly open.



Yugoslavia is a great recent example, as well as current Iraq.


really? those seem like power vacuum issues...



All eliminating borders will do is present a power grabbing opportunity which will inevitably be seized upon, resulting in the people acting to preserve their culture/region/way of life, which is in fact war.


no, it won't. this will be a slow process with O R D E R



What you are proposing is globalism, whether you want to admit it or not. It may not be your intention, but it would be the result.


good
globalism is a GOOD THING. people interacting with each other all over the world is GOOD. isolationism is bad.



What you are suggesting would require a global Pax Romana; enforcement by tyranny.


more baseless statements. you can't even provide a line of causation.



This world is not and will never be any type of utopia, and all the best laid plans of mice and men can't make it one.


straw man and cliche
i'm not calling for a utopia, all i want is something better.



All you ever get by centralizing power is a bigger stronger tyranny.


tyranny is found more at the local levels...
who had to come in to enforce desegregation because of LOCAL resistance to equality? the federal government...

where did you find jim crowe laws? in local and state policy..
tyranny is found at the local level. it allows for the oppression of minority voice without much resistance. a small minority in a small system has a smaller voice than that same minority in a larger system, as it has more representation in that larger system.
3 wiccans in the bible belt being oppressed? well... not much they can do about it on the local level besides getting a good ol' fashion beating from the klan...
on the national level? well, they can actually petition the federal government which will be forced to hear them out because it isn't controlled by a small, local group



posted on Jan, 26 2008 @ 01:43 PM
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i'm just going to start this off by saying i actually enjoy these posts of yours, they're making me develop the idea instead of just attacking it for things that aren't there...


Originally posted by TLomon
I think you need to focus your ideas on how to do this first before diving into how to accomplish end results. Once a realistic solution to how this is accomplished can be found, then we can move forward.


indeed, it would help if i had some people helping me out. i'm just one person here, someone who is a bit busy and doing this just for a bit of a mental challenge... so it'd be nice if someone could lend a hand.



The world doesn't have hundreds of Donald Trumps willing to build skyscrapers (which is what you are suggesting).


eh, not really. skyscrapers aren't entirely necessary yet...
i was thinking more along the lines of 5-10 story apartment complexes.



And you just turned us into a police state. Crime is motivated by need. They want something they don't have. Your system will eliminate that (in theory - yet to be proven), so if you system works 100%, there wouldn't be a need for that many services.


well...it's not going to work 100%

well, we'd still have fires. most aren't arson, they're accidents. so we'd still need firefighters
we'd still need first responders for natural disasters.
we'd still need paramedics.
we'd still need security guards

and not all crime is motivated by need. quite a bit is motivated by greed, some are crimes of cruelty, others are crimes of passion...
rape isn't motivated by need
assaults aren't motivated by need
though, i'll agree that most property crime is motivated by need.



And who is paying for that? If you say the government, then that would be taxes. If it is taxes, then that is more out of my pocket, which contradicts your first point. Remember, nothing is free. It has to be paid for someway.


pool the money that would have gone into military spending, think about how much money we have there



Once again, taxes.


once again, lack of military spending.



Actually, it is socialistic. Stop deluding yourself.


i'm not deluding myself. the end goal is a truly equitable capitalistic society, which would mean it takes some elements from socialism



That is very key to what you are proposing.


i know, and that's why i'm not going to just make some random statement before thinking it properly through.



You have already stated that you haven't studied economics very intensely. I recommend that you do. Economics is the foundation of what you are proposing and without a study of the basics, you seem to be missing several points.


i've noticed that.



You seem concerned that there are children starving in Africa. That is fine and dandy and all, but take a look at what is going on in the US. Children are starving. Children are suffering from lack of heat, shelter, nutrition. This is in our own backyard.


i've noticed that as well.
well, we could fix all of that... it's just not profitable to do so.



I've donated 1/4 of my yearly salary to Habitat for Humanity in supplies they needed to build homes for the homeless.


really?
i used to volunteer with them.



Add the thousands in supplies to Katrina Survivors (someone forgot they had infants when they set up centers). I was even talked about on the radio for donating my bonus to Children's Hospital. You know what? It is all a drop in the bucket.


yeah, i've noticed that... but imagine 100 million drops in the bucket, that's 100,000 liters





Instead of thinking globally on how to fix problems, start with something smaller. Nationally, still too big. State, probably still too big. What can you do in your community to make a difference?


well, i'm in malta at the moment... so not much. the problems are those of culture. still too much bigotry here... kind of hard to change that when your own people consider you an outsider for growing up in america and getting dual citizenship...



I believe you said you were from St. Louis? (If I am wrong, please forgive me, I read a lot of these threads).


well, i grew up there, i live in malta at the moment.



Their unemployment rate was around 5.5% last year alone. If you can come up with a solution to employee 100% of the people looking for jobs... to take care of our healthcare system... our problems with eduction... in just your home town.... then grow the system from there... you might have something.


well, there's at least one issue that has to be addressed there... meth.

but i just wanted to do this to get the ball rolling on ideas for change. it's not like i actually wish to implement this system, it's unworkable until you get enough people behind it. the point was to get people thinking about how to make positive change and to address certain problems in the world like how nationalism has become quite corrosive as of late...



posted on Jan, 27 2008 @ 03:42 AM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


Yea even a long shot of a possiblity is a possiblity.


Know great many people that need to take that into account.


[edit on 27-1-2008 by WraothAscendant]



posted on Jan, 27 2008 @ 06:03 AM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


Isn't that technically the goal of the NWO and all that jazz? I never thought one world government was a bad thing...It's time we start acting like a species anyway...I brought up the NWO thing because people think it's something so damned sinister..And yet everyone wants a united world....Hurts my head.



posted on Jan, 27 2008 @ 06:09 AM
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reply to post by projectvxn
 


Cause alot don't really want it. They just pretend they do.
They like their divisions.
Especially Americans. If we were one speices (one world) how could we repeatedly say "We're the best nation in the world." funny is when we say it after bitching about how screwed up our country has gotten.

In a nutshell.
Alot of people like having an "us" and a "them".
It serves their neurotic purposes.
Or they want it on THEIR terms with them being the head.

[edit on 27-1-2008 by WraothAscendant]



posted on Jan, 27 2008 @ 06:17 AM
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Don't forget the upcoming Asian union and all that Jazz. There.

Also the UAE is a beacon for globalism in the mid east. Things are happening...And I wouldn't be surprised if all this took place within my lifetime..But I'm going to do what I usually do when something weird happens in the world..Sit back and go Hhhmmmm(Rub goatee) and think about it. ALOT. So I don't enter said world without the ability to handle myself and my thoughts effectively.



posted on Jan, 27 2008 @ 06:18 AM
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reply to post by projectvxn
 

Great idea.



posted on Jan, 29 2008 @ 02:36 AM
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I find it interesting that people who live within the United States are against a larger United World.

Could it be the climate of current events with abuse of executive powers?

I brought this topic up with a friend of mind who is from India. He proceeded to tell me it was not a good idea. That the carnage and unrule that goes on in India and other parts of the world would tear this country apart.

The stories he has told me curdle my blood.

But like all discord within the world, men of stature correct the wrongs.

While Madness and I dont agree on Jesus Christ, I might bring up this quote by him as it seems to pertain:


There are two classes of the sons of men; they who would build the human race upon the sure foundation stones of justice, truth, equality and right, 22 And they who would destroy the holy temple where the Spirit dwells and bring their fellows down to beggary and crime. 23 The holy brotherhood of right must stand united in the stirring conflicts of the hour. 24 No matter whether they be Jews, Samaritans, Assyrians, or Greeks, they must tramp down beneath their feet all strife, all discord, jealousy and hate, and demonstrate the brotherhood of man. 25 Then to the ruler of the synagogue he spoke: he said, United in the cause of right we stand; divided we will fall.


The OP believes in equality, right and justice. These words being based on an understanding that this is the right way to be. Hence " The Truth"
Jesus calls on all walks to fight for right.

If we are to undertake that which is proposed, as we do now, we will need to band together as brothers and sisters..for a common Good.

United We Stand, Divided We fall.

heard that before?

Peace

[edit on 29-1-2008 by HIFIGUY]



posted on Jan, 29 2008 @ 05:01 AM
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reply to post by HIFIGUY
 


i knew that jesus guy and i agreed on some things too!

it's odd that so many are against this idea in principle based on slippery slope paranoia...
"once you unite the world, it's going to become tyrannical!"

nobody has shown ANY causation that would lead to that, they just state it...
it seems like people aren't thinking here, they're fearing...



posted on Jan, 29 2008 @ 05:23 AM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
it's odd that so many are against this idea in principle based on slippery slope paranoia...
"once you unite the world, it's going to become tyrannical!"


Personally, I am still waiting for an answer to the question: Who will be making the decisions?

I was also thinking about some of the things that would be needed to accomplish the final goal of this.

1) Standardized Language
2) Standardized Currency

I think the Euro would be a good place to start with for the global "coin" but the name would have to change to reflect a more universal tone.



posted on Jan, 29 2008 @ 09:42 AM
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reply to post by TLomon
 


i don't really think we'd need a standardized language, just a universal language of diplomacy and commerce...and i still have not a clue as to who would run things

any input would be welcome



posted on Jan, 29 2008 @ 09:49 AM
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Great idea! It must be done slowly like the EU has done. The EU is becoming like one nation. The lack of borders there has had little effect.



posted on Apr, 23 2008 @ 08:27 AM
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*bump*

i just wanted to revive this thread, i think it provides great balance to the whole "OH NOES! ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT = SATAN ZOMG!" hysteria you often get there

maybe we could just start bouncing ideas off of each other to see how we could get a real one world government for and by the people to work.



posted on Apr, 23 2008 @ 10:17 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


Give it up globalist boy. Your parsing of every word instead of taking arguments as a whole has worn everyone out. You'll get your one world gov, whether those of us who love freedom like it or not. Enjoy.



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