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We should rid ourselves of America...

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posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 12:38 AM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


Whoa mate, calm down!


A lot of what I said wasn´t in direct response to what you have written, but rather a collection of thoughts about various things that could be tied INTO what you said.


I wasn´t trying to put words into your mouth.

Also, race isn´t a myth. That´s painfully obvious. There are ongoing studies now which may hint that we originated from China, not Africa as we assume now. It also suggests that Africans and those who originated from China are two different *stems on a tree.*

Sorry, don´t have a link, but I´m sure google could bring something up.

Also, Hamburgers didn´t come from Germany, it came from ancient Rome.


Peace,
FK




posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 01:04 AM
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Bad Bad Bad idea.....I am not ready to give up my constitution or my sovreignty because people actually believe we live in a "Utopian" world....We have a lot of wars going on around the world and the USA is not involved in them....And I deffinetly do not want our borders anymore wideopen than they already are...And bringing all that stuff to our country on top of the problems we already have.......Also the NAU,AU and the EU are not complete open borders btw even the NWO knows complete open borders would be chaos and they would even lose control....


I goive it three thmbs down...



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 01:07 AM
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The federal government is already trying to destroy America and the constitution. There really is no need for this thread lol, come on nafta superhighways? You gotta be kidding me.



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 02:52 AM
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America is one of the few places on earth where ideas and the means to actually free mankind can go beyond just ideas. America is the last place you should want to get rid of, but the exact opposite - which I know many will hate me for saying this. America is the one of the models you should try to make out of other places.

Opening borders to uneducated peoples who can think of nothing, but getting enough for the moment would just create chaos and more war. You cannot just give away equality you have to educate people and prepare them first.

How many ignorant money foolish folks win the lottery every years just to blow it all & ruin their lives, because they don't have the fiscal knowledge or education to handle money. Many people even in America live in poverty - mostly due to lack of education. Governments will always be too greedy to educate all their peoples - it's up to the people who have the ability to do it by donating their time extra money & ideas to bring the peoples of world up to the same speed. Those of us who are here & have the time to be here are those who are responsible for saving mankind & freeing the peoples of earth.

Governments should remain in place and take their role as servants to the local peoples taking care of things like basic infrastructures support and day to day mundane tasks that need to be done. With new communication technology's such as then Internet and successful people from places like America we can educate and bring the rest of the world up to our level.

It is the Internet that can free mankind and bridge the gap.

The evil & the greedy peoples on earth will be exposed when the walls to knowledge are torn down and we can all work together as one.

Eventually we may be able to dissolve all earth borders, but first we need to equalize the pressure before opening the airlock.



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 06:26 AM
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Originally posted by freight tomsen
Oh, ok, let's have a top-down federalized world government so we can all be "equal." Do you realize you're promoting the New World Order!?


i NEVER said top-down...
i actually believe in a bottom up world. power by the people. governments should be afraid of their people and all that jazz.



Everybody leave ATS, people are promoting the the conspiracy now under the same guise the Brotherhood uses.


ah, so this shouldn't be an open forum for discussion, i must have missed the memo where we have to conform our beliefs/



Oh, the world is so unfair, but communist distribution of resources will solve everything!


clearly i'm not advocating communism.
either people on ATS have become very very dense or they're not reading what i've written (i'm quite sure it's the latter)



Government is bad at this level, so let's make a United States of the World to further centralize things! Everybody go home, the world is safe for sheeple everywhere!


oops, all evidence shows that centralized systems are more beneficial to the individual than decentralized ones
would you rather we live under the defunct articles of confederation?



Originally posted by Sentinel 1
Bad Bad Bad idea.....I am not ready to give up my constitution or my sovreignty


personal sovereignty would remain, no need to worry about that one
and the constitution? we'd have a global one with identical rights (and then some)



because people actually believe we live in a "Utopian" world....


did i say utopian?
did i imply things would be perfect? i just said they'd be better and less bloody.




We have a lot of wars going on around the world and the USA is not involved in them....


um... i did say all other nations, did i not?



And I deffinetly do not want our borders anymore wideopen than they already are...And bringing all that stuff to our country on top of the problems we already have.......


the world would be completely open and it would be a slow, gradual process so the world could properly adjust



Also the NAU,AU and the EU are not complete open borders btw even the NWO knows complete open borders would be chaos and they would even lose control....


the NAU is a conspiracy theory, the AU is something different from the EU, and the EU does have open borders via the schengen system.



I goive it three thmbs down...


with absolutely no logical basis


Originally posted by topsecretombomb
The federal government is already trying to destroy America and the constitution. There really is no need for this thread lol, come on nafta superhighways? You gotta be kidding me.


someone didn't read anything i wrote and went only from the title. i put in the "..." for a reason.


Originally posted by verylowfrequency
America is one of the few places on earth where ideas and the means to actually free mankind can go beyond just ideas. America is the last place you should want to get rid of, but the exact opposite - which I know many will hate me for saying this. America is the one of the models you should try to make out of other places.


exact, but i'm extending it to the world. in the end, america is gone with the other nations and we have a system which takes the best from america and all the existing nations and then applies it to the rest of the world. in the end, america will be gone and replaced with something better, as we can ALWAYS do better.



Opening borders to uneducated peoples who can think of nothing, but getting enough for the moment would just create chaos and more war. You cannot just give away equality you have to educate people and prepare them first.


exactly, you completely agree with me here. i've said it will be a gradual process for a reason.



How many ignorant money foolish folks win the lottery every years just to blow it all & ruin their lives, because they don't have the fiscal knowledge or education to handle money. Many people even in America live in poverty - mostly due to lack of education.


indeed, but sometimes that lack of education is due to circumstance. a good example is st. louis (my hometown)
the city schools are horrid, but the county ones are quite good... so if you live in the city and can't afford to live in the county, you're a victim of circumstance (especially if you can't afford a private school)



Governments will always be too greedy to educate all their peoples - it's up to the people who have the ability to do it by donating their time extra money & ideas to bring the peoples of world up to the same speed.


unless the people become the government



Those of us who are here & have the time to be here are those who are responsible for saving mankind & freeing the peoples of earth.


it's not the peoples of the earth. peoples implies that we aren't one. one world, one people.



Governments should remain in place and take their role as servants to the local peoples taking care of things like basic infrastructures support and day to day mundane tasks that need to be done.


basic infrastructure, healthcare (just look at the WHO ratings, socialized systems are clearly superior), education, etc



With new communication technology's such as then Internet and successful people from places like America we can educate and bring the rest of the world up to our level.


not without centralization. we need a uniting force, a way for all the people that want to do good for the world to unite and to prevent anyone from pushing their personal agenda.



It is the Internet that can free mankind and bridge the gap.


i might have to disagree there... it will only do this if there is universal internet access.



The evil & the greedy peoples on earth will be exposed when the walls to knowledge are torn down and we can all work together as one.


um...already done.



Eventually we may be able to dissolve all earth borders, but first we need to equalize the pressure before opening the airlock.


yes, but i think we need to find a unifying force to do that



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 07:25 AM
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reply to post by METACOMET
 


thank you Sir, for protecting that which protects me.

The constitution is the Only thing i can see giving me a bright future.

We must go back to it, and protect it.



World Gov't will do nothing but make the entire world a ghetto of sweatshops.

Individual liberty is our only option for progress.



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 08:36 AM
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I do so applaud your good intentions. however there is a couple of things to consider.

1: have you noticed that the majority posting are against the idea or say it wont work. That in a nut shell should tell you about the world you in vision. We are not ready nor Do I believe we will ever be ready.

2: Ever stop to wonder why we have the systems we do. They didn't develop by accident. They developed because they match the way we are built. Some refuse to believe it but we are animals and as animals our base instincts are still intact. The biggest of those is selfishness.

I once told a counselor that every person on this planet is selfish. He informed me that he certainly was not selfish. I said prove it. he used his job as an example. he said the fact that he listens to and try's to help people is the proof.

I ask him why he did it. He thought about it for a minute then replied with a smile. he said it makes me feel good to help other people. I said well there ya have it. do you need any more proof then that.

Once you understand that the root of man kind is the self you will have a better grasp on why our systems devoliped the way they did. People will only tolerate a change or improvement in the system if it gives them something that cant be taken and doesn't have to be shared. unfortunately politicians are people to. What they have they don't want to loose. in a one world government they would loose it all.

Well thats just the way I see it any way.

[edit on 26-12-2007 by angryamerican]



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 09:39 AM
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Originally posted by angryamerican
1: have you noticed that the majority posting are against the idea or say it wont work.


yes, i've noticed. i also noticed that nobody seems to have any proper reasoning and they keep making blanket statements and appealing to emotion, spewing nationalistic rhetoric, and using scare tactics/fear mongering.



That in a nut shell should tell you about the world you in vision. We are not ready nor Do I believe we will ever be ready.


maybe if we had a bit more education and less fear mongering about the concept of a world government...



2: Ever stop to wonder why we have the systems we do. They didn't develop by accident. They developed because they match the way we are built.


yes, i've noticed that



Some refuse to believe it but we are animals and as animals our base instincts are still intact. The biggest of those is selfishness.


selfishness? a societal species can't survive on selfishness. it's obvious that altruism is also instinctual, as are compassion etc. just read into evolutionary psychology



I once told a counselor that every person on this planet is selfish. He informed me that he certainly was not selfish. I said prove it. he used his job as an example. he said the fact that he listens to and try's to help people is the proof.

I ask him why he did it. He thought about it for a minute then replied with a smile. he said it makes me feel good to help other people. I said well there ya have it. do you need any more proof then that.


this is a bit of a childish argument. it may make him feel good at some level, but he still suffers in many ways. counselors see counselors in higher numbers than any other profession. this isn't selfishness, and i'm surprised that you weren't thoroughly refuted on the spot



Once you understand that the root of man kind is the self you will have a better grasp on why our systems devoliped the way they did.


i turn this around and say it right back at you. you don't have an understanding here, you have an idea, knowledge that can be applied, but you don't seem to have your head wrapped around human behavior completely. you look at the human animal from the wrong light.



People will only tolerate a change or improvement in the system if it gives them something that cant be taken and doesn't have to be shared.


no...
i don't want to write out too much on this, but that's just malarkey. people will tolerate change if it gives them ANYTHING or if it causes no real change at all



unfortunately politicians are people to. What they have they don't want to loose. in a one world government they would loose it all.


now you're stereotyping politicians...


Originally posted by muzzleflash
The constitution is the Only thing i can see giving me a bright future.


statement... but no argument. i'm seeing A LOT of that here, nobody seems to have any logical arguments, only appeals to emotion and statements.




World Gov't will do nothing but make the entire world a ghetto of sweatshops.


again, a statement, but no argument to support it.
why? why would a world government do this?



Individual liberty is our only option for progress.


world government isn't the antithesis to individual liberty.



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 09:50 AM
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This all sounds good if we lived in a perfect world. Unfortunately we don't so it would never work.





[edit on 26-12-2007 by Digital_Reality]



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 09:54 AM
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reply to post by Digital_Reality
 


ANOTHER person who didn't read anything past the title.

hey, how about you read the thread instead of forming a bias based off of 6 words?



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 10:15 AM
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I read the entire thread.

You know what they say about people who assume don't you?


[edit on 26-12-2007 by Digital_Reality]



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 10:42 AM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


Its a pipe dream. It sounds good and looks good an paper but it would never work. Rid ourselves of America not the answer. All I can picture when I think about your idea is chaos and confusion.

I think America needs to stay together and focus more on itself. Try to become a better country and set an example for all the rest.
We as a world need structure and borders. When you take all the borders away and mix everybody up like your saying it is a recipe for destruction.

Why does change like this have to start with America opening their borders and breaking apart?
Why do you think all the opportunities are available in America and not everywhere else?
How long do you think these things will last if America does not exist anymore?
There has been borders and separate tribes and cultures since the beginning of time.

It would be nice if we could all join hands and sing kumbaya but its not likely to ever happen.



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 12:24 PM
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Originally posted by Digital_Reality
This all sounds good if we lived in a perfect world. Unfortunately we don't so it would never work.


wouldn't need a perfect world for my idea to work. in fact, my entire premise rests on humanity being very imperfect


Originally posted by Digital_Reality
Its a pipe dream. It sounds good and looks good an paper but it would never work. Rid ourselves of America not the answer. All I can picture when I think about your idea is chaos and confusion.


again a statement with no explanation.
why would there be chaos and confusion?



I think America needs to stay together and focus more on itself. Try to become a better country and set an example for all the rest.


"hey look, america is such a great country, let's be more like them as we slowly starve to death for no reason other than the fact that we were born in this country"



We as a world need structure and borders. When you take all the borders away and mix everybody up like your saying it is a recipe for destruction.


again, another statement without logic behind it. this is just an opinion until you can show me WHY.



Why does change like this have to start with America opening their borders and breaking apart?


i never said it did.



Why do you think all the opportunities are available in America and not everywhere else?


various reasons, i could start a whole thread on it. part of it is access to resources, easy depopulation of natives, isolationism during the nationalism/revolution period in europe to establish a proper economy and standard of living during that period, many many factors, but none of them make it right.



How long do you think these things will last if America does not exist anymore?


a long time, especially if things are done properly. hell, i bet we could make things even better.



There has been borders and separate tribes and cultures since the beginning of time.


really? dinosaurs had borders?
anyway, that's not an argument.




It would be nice if we could all join hands and sing kumbaya but its not likely to ever happen.


and, once more, that's not what i'm calling for



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 02:29 PM
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years ago now on the radio some commentators were having a discussion like madnessinmysoul proposes---the outcome would be that all of us would be poor and go to bed hungry everynight if all the wealth of this world was shared equally amongst every human presently alive.sorry--i dont enjoy watching others suffer but its not my/our fault in the usa if other countries and peoples and their families have shipwrecked their own lives---one small example---is it our fault that so many african men have aides that they are spreading around ?-----they live in a continent that has better weather/crop growing conditions than we have---yet the un/usa has to help feed them or they will starve to death--zimbabwe fed the rest of africa as long as it had a white government--once they got the freedom they wanted they murdered and drove out the white farmers that grew their crops----now they and the rest of africa are worse off.how do you educate other people to work so they can eat?why should we work to feed them if they'd sooner be having sex instead of working ?



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 03:21 PM
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Why does change like this have to start with America opening their borders and breaking apart?


i never said it did.

First, madnessinmysoul, You have been great in this thread defending your points and opinions. It IS appreciated. I may vehemently disagree with you, but I am learning something here, which is what ATS is all about.

Second, You most certainly did say it... And it was a very valid question that I would also like an answer to.



We should rid ourselves of America...and all other nations. Then open up the borders, create a federalized system in which the world is governed at a federal level...


What I think you might not understand is as humans, we have had to fight against government consistently for the last 6000 years, ever since its conception.

What we have learned throughout these thousands of years is government is certainly not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force. And like G.W said...Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.

The natural progress of things has been for liberty to yield and government to gain ground. Always. In every instance, when our descendants have given an inch of authority to government, government comes back and demands a foot, then a mile. Soon enough a "free" man finds himself in chains. History does NOT deviate from this path even slightly, this is the RULE....

Except for the tiny example of America. Americans created the sole example of a society whose job is to recognize the inherent flaws in human nature in regard to power and to counteract its effect. The constitution.

And painful as it may be for some people to hear it, there's nothing really special about Americans that sets them apart from the other people of the world. It is the Bill of Rights, and those rights only, that keeps us from becoming another of the worlds countless authoritarian regimes.

Americans were not given these things. They had to be taken by force. The Bill of Rights is a born rebel. It reeks with sedition. In every clause it shakes its fist in the face of constituted authority. It says abuse of power isn't limited to bad guys in other nations. It happens in our own country if we're not vigilant.

It makes perfect sense that America is in the position she is in. And the world shouldn't want to, or have to destroy what Americans have invented and achieved in order to gain global utopia. On the contrary, the rest of the world should emulate and strive for the American example in order to gain it.

I think JFK says what I' am trying to convey the best. Please read it carefully.

The wave of the future is not the conquest of the world by a single dogmatic creed but the liberation of the diverse energies of free nations and free men. – John F. Kennedy, University of California, 3/23/63

[edit on 26-12-2007 by METACOMET]



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 03:44 PM
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Mmk, well...

First of all thanks Metacomet for pointing out question #5 for him.

And secondly your idea is just not plausible frankly because deep down the majority of people on this planet like being separated and would rather be with their own kind (ie. race,religion,countrymen,family.....).

Not everyone is up for the whole idea of being mixed up together as one big world holding hands.

If you try to join the world together everyone will still group up according to the above classes I mentioned and eventually it will be right back to how it is now.



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 04:26 PM
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Originally posted by yahn goodey
years ago now on the radio some commentators were having a discussion like madnessinmysoul proposes---the outcome would be that all of us would be poor and go to bed hungry everynight if all the wealth of this world was shared equally amongst every human presently alive.


wow, this is by and far the most vague argument from authority i've ever heard.

logical fallacies aren't proper arguments

it's also complete BS.

are you aware that the world currently produces a surplus of food and that farmers are paid so to produce less than capacity?

the only reason there are starving people is that so many are obese and that food doesn't go to the hungry mouths of the world.


Originally posted by METACOMET
First, madnessinmysoul, You have been great in this thread defending your points and opinions.


thank you. it's been a bit tiring though, and i doubt i'd be as thorough if i wasn't sick for the last few days.



It IS appreciated. I may vehemently disagree with you, but I am learning something here, which is what ATS is all about.


now this is one of the things i enjoy hearing most. i love it when we all learn something even if we don't agree in the end.



What I think you might not understand is as humans, we have had to fight against government consistently for the last 6000 years, ever since its conception.


humanity predates government and it's a bit arguable when exactly it started, but the first one i'm aware of that could be considered a proper argument is back in Sumer, circa 3500 BCE.



What we have learned throughout these thousands of years is government is certainly not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force. And like G.W said...Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.


examples?



The natural progress of things has been for liberty to yield and government to gain ground. Always. In every instance, when our descendants have given an inch of authority to government, government comes back and demands a foot, then a mile. Soon enough a "free" man finds himself in chains. History does NOT deviate from this path even slightly, this is the RULE....


counterargument: norway or sweden (take your pick)

though i've yet to see a proper example of your argument.



Except for the tiny example of America. Americans created the sole example of a society whose job is to recognize the inherent flaws in human nature in regard to power and to counteract its effect. The constitution.


i actually burst out laughing at the arrogance and the sticky refuse from the nationalist system in that statement. learn about world governments before you flaunt your ignorance.



And painful as it may be for some people to hear it, there's nothing really special about Americans that sets them apart from the other people of the world. It is the Bill of Rights, and those rights only, that keeps us from becoming another of the worlds countless authoritarian regimes.


um... sweden and norway
sweden and norway are much nicer places to live. i'd actually readily move their once i've finished my education if i knew the language.

i'm just going to ignore the rest because it's built from the same foundation of a distorted view of the world....


Originally posted by Digital_Reality
And secondly your idea is just not plausible frankly because deep down the majority of people on this planet like being separated and would rather be with their own kind (ie. race,religion,countrymen,family.....).


and that's due to...
*drumroll*
ignorance!

in fact, if we made people realize that "countrymen" are just people that live within the same artificial boundaries, that religion isn't something to fight over (or should be done away with, but that's another discussion entirely), that race is a myth, and that we're one people, one HUMANITY, we'd be much better off.
(i excluded family because i don't see where that would get in the way of my idea)



Not everyone is up for the whole idea of being mixed up together as one big world holding hands.


and not everyone was up for the idea of:
abolishing slavery
getting rid of monarchies
setting up democracies
uniting smaller states into the modern nation-states
etc

but it still happend.



If you try to join the world together everyone will still group up according to the above classes I mentioned and eventually it will be right back to how it is now.



how? why?


 


honestly, where is the reasoning here? does no one on this thread know how to back up a statement with an argument?

almost all i've seen is opinion and ignorance.

far from starvation if we distributed all the food equally, so your argument falls.

i'm also not calling for equal distribution of wealth...

oh, and one more thing, wealth isn't zero-sum



sorry--i dont enjoy watching others suffer but its not my/our fault in the usa if other countries and peoples and their families have shipwrecked their own lives


but they DIDN'T. being born in a starving country isn't shipwrecking your own life. they're born into a circumstance that they cannot prevent.

it's not their fault that they're suffering in nearly all of these instances, yet you wish to blame them for their misfortune.



---one small example---is it our fault that so many african men have aides that they are spreading around ?-----


is it their fault that they live in areas where proper education about the disease and access to condoms are unavailable?



they live in a continent that has better weather/crop growing conditions than we have---yet the un/usa has to help feed them or they will starve to death--


they also don't have an infrastructure to support farming...
and then there's the political unrest, lack of education,religious strife, genocides...



zimbabwe fed the rest of africa as long as it had a white government--once they got the freedom they wanted they murdered and drove out the white farmers that grew their crops----now they and the rest of africa are worse off.


the racist undertones are a bit too overt there...
you know, maybe if they had educated the general populous in agricultural methods and hadn't done any suppression to cause some sort tension...
yeah, let's not blame colonialism and blame the oppressed



how do you educate other people to work so they can eat?


the same way you educate any people



why should we work to feed them if they'd sooner be having sex instead of working ?


if i walked into a room of human beings and asked them to raise their hands if they'd rather be having sex instead of working and saw a single hand down, i'd immediately suspect that person has some mental issues....



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 04:45 PM
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honestly, where is the reasoning here? does no one on this thread know how to back up a statement with an argument?


I am not in this thread to argue with you. If your looking to argue id rather not participate.




almost all i've seen is opinion and ignorance.

And you are doing a very good job of it.








Originally posted by Digital_Reality
And secondly your idea is just not plausible frankly because deep down the majority of people on this planet like being separated and would rather be with their own kind (ie. race,religion,countrymen,family.....).




and that's due to...
*drumroll*
ignorance!

in fact, if we made people realize that "countrymen" are just people that live within the same artificial boundaries, that religion isn't something to fight over (or should be done away with, but that's another discussion entirely), that race is a myth, and that we're one people, one HUMANITY, we'd be much better off.
(i excluded family because i don't see where that would get in the way of my idea)




Not everyone is up for the whole idea of being mixed up together as one big world holding hands.




and not everyone was up for the idea of:
abolishing slavery
getting rid of monarchies
setting up democracies
uniting smaller states into the modern nation-states
etc

but it still happend.




If you try to join the world together everyone will still group up according to the above classes I mentioned and eventually it will be right back to how it is now.





how? why?




#1 is not due to ignorance , its due to human nature.
#2 was just random facts that dont pertain to the conversation.
#3 is also again human nature.

I'm not trying to prove you wrong I'm just stating my opinion.

There is in reality no way to prove or disprove your theory with debate or conversation. The only way would be to see it in action which I don't see happening anytime soon.

But dont stop using the ole noodle!



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 06:17 PM
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Originally posted by Digital_Reality
I am not in this thread to argue with you. If your looking to argue id rather not participate.


this thread is a discussion. you discuss. if you have an opinion, you say it... but you should also SUPPORT it.



#1 is not due to ignorance , its due to human nature.


how so?



#2 was just random facts that dont pertain to the conversation.


they pertained directly to the argument that was brought up



#3 is also again human nature.


again, how so?



I'm not trying to prove you wrong I'm just stating my opinion.


alrighty, but i'd like to see the reasoning behind your opinions. just so we can all learn something



There is in reality no way to prove or disprove your theory with debate or conversation. The only way would be to see it in action which I don't see happening anytime soon.


ok... but part of my idea is that it wouldn't happen anytime soon.



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 06:23 PM
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The idea that a "one world government" could be good for anyone is pure madness.

The tyranny that the lower classes would likely face under such a circumstance is unfathomable.



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