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Americans Falling Behind on Credit Card Payments at Alarming Rate

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apc

posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 08:01 PM
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The cost of freedom is a high one, I'll give you that. Abuse is inevitable, but not unimpedible (I'm pretty sure that's a word).

As far as the Fed and the credit situation, I see our course as paralleling Rome. There was a time when the Romans had a chance to change their path, to keep their republic whole and strong. We are still in that time.




posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 09:08 PM
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It's not fascism or communism, it's something much older, called feudalism. The wealthy control the government, the banks, and the markets, and they dictate how everything is going to be. Some they capture through religious ideology, some through nationalism and militancy, and in this new wave it is the fervent, almost religious belief in free markets.

The powers that be want to re-establish an aristocracy. This is what conservatives have always sought, and always will.



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 09:56 PM
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This is why I have no bank account and no credit cards. I have $300,000.00 in my safe in my house and the rest in stocks and that's where it shall stay. And the banks are like, please! pay us to hold your money. And I'm like, uhhhhh...no. I don't know about you guys, but I like keeping my money in my pocket instead of giving it to banks and CC companies in hidden fees and interest rates. Bump dat. FUUUUUUUUCK Capitol One and Bank of America.



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 10:35 PM
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reply to post by mike_b
 


Its too bad that every day the value of that $300,000 is less. In 10 years time the buying power of that money will equal around $250,000-$270,000 in todays terms. Inflation. This is why people put their money in banks to earn interest...atleast keep up with inflation. I have never paid a bank to hold my money, and the more money you have - the better investment they offer you to pay you even more. Of course they make a cut of it too, but at least the purchase power of your money would be growing instead of shrinking.

Not to mention if you ever get robbed - your screwed.

[edit on 26-12-2007 by LightinDarkness]



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 11:37 PM
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A note about fascism. Even Hitler knew enough not to mess with the economic elite. He stomped out everyone else, but still had to do business with the puppet-masters. Read "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" for some insights.



posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 12:33 AM
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Joe the loan shark visits Bob the baker. Joe tells Bob he's interested in helping business to grow in the neighborhood, and that what Bob really needs is a new mixer to make more product faster. Now Bob has already been thinking the same thing, and agrees to borrow the money from Joe to buy the mixer. Bob pays Joe back in full at the end of the month. As a reward for paying on time, Joe gives Bob a few bags of flour from a bakery that just went out of business across town. They have established a friendly business relationship.

Over the next few months, it continues in much the same way. Joe keeps giving Bob little gifts to help his business along, and Bob starts borrowing to buy regular supplies. But Bob is still able to pay off at the end of each month.

Then Bob gets some bad news. His big contract for supplying the hard rolls to a chain of delis has gone to Paul the baker out of town. Joe tells Bob not to worry, he can make up the difference by attracting new customers. Bob borrows the money from Joe for a new display case.

At the end of the month, Bob does not have all of Joe's money, but there is no real concern. "I know you're good for it," Joe tells Bob, "I'll just have to charge you a few extra bucks next month."

But again Bob comes up a little short. Again, no hard feelings, no problems. "You know what you need Bob?" Joe asks, "A new sign out front. That'll get the people in here." So Bob borrows the money for the sign. At the end of that month, he doesn't have all of the money for the sign, or the display case. "Don't worry," Joe tells Bob, "You just give me a box of rolls everday from now on, and I'll let you wait til next month to pay the whole thing off. You'll have to still pay that few bucks extra though that we already agreed to."

Well, this keeps up for a few more months. Joe promises to steer some business in Bob's direction. Bob keeps trying to pay off as much as he can, but he keeps losing business to Paul the baker from the next town over. Joe keeps up an accomodating rapoire with Bob, pep talking him and such. "It's no problem Bob, things'll get better. By the way, could you make me a big cake for my kids' graduation...Hey, I'm opening a new resaurant, you could give me all the bread I need there. It'll be good advertising for you and you'd be helping me so I can keep helping you...Oh, by the way, my restaurant just started selling cakes now, so you'll have to start making those for me..."

It gets to the point that Bob hardly has time for his paying customers. And his paying customers don't even cover the costs of the supplies like flour and sugar that he needs. Bob is borrowing more each month from Joe just to keep the business afloat and doing just about all the favors he can.

Finally the day comes that Bob doesn't have another penny to pay Joe. "Don't worry Bob, it's not like I'm gonna break your legs, but I think we both know that this business just isn't going to work anymore. Maybe you should just go work for someone else. Sign the business and the property over to me, and I'll only hold you responsible for the interest."

So Bob signs it all over. A month later Bob is still looking for a job and walks past his old bakery, which also happened to be where he lived upstairs until he signed the property over to Joe. There's a bunch of people coming and going, and a big fancy new sign out front that says Paul's Bakery. When he walks in, Joe is there and says with a smile, "Come on in Bob, I want you to meet my brother Paul the baker."


[edit on 12/27/0707 by jackinthebox]



posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 12:04 PM
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Tell me how you guys keep calling this predatory lending. First off we are talking about UNSECURED debt, of course the interest rate is going to be high, the debt is UNSECURED, the bank needs as much money from you as possible in case you default. That why loans that are secured have better interest rates, if you dont pay your mortgage they foreclose, you dont pay your car note they repossess it, if you dont pay credit card bills they what.... put a judgement on you (which serves no good unless you are a homeowner and even then there are homestead exemptions) they garnish your wages (this can actually be killer, some states allow them to garnish quite a bit, some up to 25%), or they send you to collections.

Buyer Beware, the one thing you learn in HS Economics, you are responsible to read the fine print, and if you dont understand what your reading you shouldnt be signing. The bank didnt make you borrow the money, the bank didnt make you buy the goods or services, the bank doesnt tell you how much to pay monthly (aside from minimums), the bank doesnt tell you where you can or cant use the card. You are an account number to them, they dont care if you lost your job, if you got sick, if your spouse has issues. They don't make special considerations for people because if they do it for 1 person they have to do it for everybody, and then the business plan fails. Banks are businesses just like your corner store, their purpose is making money, they issue credit cards to make money, if people cant be responsible enough to use them properly they deserve everything they get. Banks issue credit cards to make money, not to make your life more convenient or for you to live outside your means.

You signed a contract, you agreed to the terms and conditions, you agreed to the universal default clause, you agreed to the fact that they can raise or lower or adjust your interest rate at anytime for any reason, you agreed to repay the debt as the contract stipulates. They agreed to let you borrow up to your credit limit, and they agreed to let you use the card how you want, other than that they stick to the contract.

I am a bill collector for Chase bank, I have been on both sides of the phone as a bill collector and as a debtor. I was $20,000 in debt and in collections, unemployed and broke. Found a job and worked my way back up from the bottom. I am still paying for it though because my credit score went from 720 to 560 in 1 year, but I am out of debt and am rebuilding my credit. It's not the banks fault I was careless, it was mine.

[edit on 27-12-2007 by BluByWho]



posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 12:09 PM
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reply to post by BluByWho
 


So you simply admit defeat by saying that they are a business and they can do whatever they want? Thats fine but the central banking system controls the currency through unethical means of causing inflation (fractional reserve banking) which in turn controls the indebtness of the populace. Then they do everything in their power to create situations where people have no other choice but to remain in debt and pay minimum payments every month. We arent talking about a simple black and white situation of borrowing someones money because there was non to lend in the first place!!!



posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 12:13 PM
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reply to post by BluByWho
 


Also...buyer beware doesnt apply here because contract law is what needs to be referenced in this situation. The bottom line is that when two parties signed a contract each side has to voluntarity go through the process of full disclosure because it is not soley on the responsibility of the signor to understand the terms and conditions because they must be fully known and negotiable.



posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 12:26 PM
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Originally posted by GUICE2
reply to post by BluByWho
 


Also...buyer beware doesnt apply here because contract law is what needs to be referenced in this situation. The bottom line is that when two parties signed a contract each side has to voluntarity go through the process of full disclosure because it is not soley on the responsibility of the signor to understand the terms and conditions because they must be fully known and negotiable.


Its called the cardmember agreement, and if you dont read it it is your own fault, by using the card you agreed to everything they included in the agreement, that becomes your fault not theirs.

By contract law I assume you mean offer (the credit card) acceptance (you signing the card or using it) Consideration ( the $ they are lending you under CONTRACT)

I used buyer beware as a general statement, its the consumers responsibility to become educated, not the businesses to educate you.



posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 12:31 PM
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Originally posted by GUICE2
reply to post by BluByWho
 


So you simply admit defeat by saying that they are a business and they can do whatever they want? Thats fine but the central banking system controls the currency through unethical means of causing inflation (fractional reserve banking) which in turn controls the indebtness of the populace. Then they do everything in their power to create situations where people have no other choice but to remain in debt and pay minimum payments every month. We arent talking about a simple black and white situation of borrowing someones money because there was non to lend in the first place!!!


When you use the banks credit card, how they do their lending and accounting should be none of your concern or any of your business really. Your business with the bank is you borrowing money they agreed to lend you, and you agreeing to pay it back on time. Other than that where they get their money, whether or not they actually have the cash on hand, or where the money came from has nothing to do with you.

EDIT: To ADD

I don't admit defeat, i'm just not like all the other consumers. I learned the hard way, I defaulted on nearly $20k in unsecured debt, I paid it back and am now debt free. I made the mistake and I wont make it again. At the end of the day I never once blamed the bank, blamed interest rates, tried to weasel my way out of a legal and binding contract under technicalities. I manned up, I admitted I was the one to blame, and I did what I had to do to fix my situation. I'm not like the 90% of people out there who are in default and act like they are the victims, because at the end of the day when you default the bank is the victim. I don't call it admitting defeat, I call it responsibility for ones own actions.

[edit on 27-12-2007 by BluByWho]



posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 12:35 PM
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reply to post by BluByWho
 


Like i said simply....all terms and conditions have to be out in the open and made knowledgable to both parties. What part of the words made knoweledgable to each party do people not get? Im not talking about the stuff you can see im talking about the micro print under your name that we see as a dotted line....that contains part of the terms and conditions but is not legible by the naked eye. So then i guess your argument there is that it is up to the signor to find a microscope and read those words?
The fact that you have to put all the effort into finding out that there is an extremely high and urealistic penalty rate does not constitute full disclosure because it isnt out in the open and it should be. It should be the first thing you read when applying for a card so no one can miss it. You know as well as i do that the banks purposefully include this info amongst the fine print because they know no one will every read it and even if they did they make it so its easily missed if one just quickly skims over the agreement which is all the time most people can afford to muster. Did you here me when i said that there was no money to lend in the first place? Its an accounting entry and through fractional reserve banking, money is created and the economy is inflated. Thats why interest is high not because we are using someone else's money. If that is true then you show me the debit to the account whery my credit came from....just go to google and look up fractional reserve banking before you come back and post on this site. Then maybe you wont be so accusatory when you call people to collect from them. The banks get free money from us and put it back into circulation but not before they get to lend it out once again up to ten times. They dont have these funds on deposit which is why if we all went to our banks to take OUR money out they wouldnt have it and would become insolvent. That is why the federal reserve system was set up under the guise of being a legitimate banking system....they created a cartel just like OPEC and can do whatever they want with currency and money. This isnt such a simple debate as to whether or not you should pay back money you borrowed....there are so many hidden implications and agendas that to label it as such a black and white argument just shadows the truth.



posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 12:37 PM
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reply to post by BluByWho
 


Ok....so im going to lend you 1000 dollars and charge yo use of funds interest. Then you find out i never had that 1000 dollars at all but am still charging you interest on the guise that you were actually using my money. That is fraud my friend....it has everything to do with the process. So your ok with the fact that the central banking system just creates money out of thin air to lend to people? That makes no sense dude......the bank you have deposited that 1000 dollars in that creates a checking account for you actually does not have that 1000 dollars because they have lent it out 10 times over. Like i said...if we all went to get our money it wouldnt be there and thats why it has everything to do with us.


apc

posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 12:39 PM
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reply to post by BluByWho
 


It's still predatory lending. Just like title loan or cash advance places. They prey on the weak and often inexperienced or uneducated as they are easy targets. I used an analogy once of a sexual predator. It's the same thing. Just because the ten year old "consented" doesn't make it OK.

These lending practices have gutted the middle class as was always intended. I for one don't think that is a good thing.



posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 12:40 PM
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reply to post by BluByWho
 


HAHAHAH,.....the bank is the victim??!!
no offense but that is seriously laughable....they are the vicitims of nothing. I never said i was a victim because i want to pay my debt and get out of the system entirely but they purposefully make it 100 times harder with their high interest rates and unreasonable fees. You talk about personal responsibility what about accountability on their parts for confusing the populace to such a point that they actually beleive their money is sitting in the bank? Or that the 10000 credit card they received actually debits from an account in their name that is backed by something tangible like gold or silver.


apc

posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 12:43 PM
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reply to post by GUICE2
 


Guice, you're still fussing over the irrelevant. By your logic you should just give your car away because the money borrowed to pay the dealer didn't really exist.

I don't think the courts will agree.



posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 12:43 PM
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Originally posted by GUICE2
reply to post by BluByWho
 


Ok....so im going to lend you 1000 dollars and charge yo use of funds interest. Then you find out i never had that 1000 dollars at all but am still charging you interest on the guise that you were actually using my money. That is fraud my friend....it has everything to do with the process. So your ok with the fact that the central banking system just creates money out of thin air to lend to people? That makes no sense dude......the bank you have deposited that 1000 dollars in that creates a checking account for you actually does not have that 1000 dollars because they have lent it out 10 times over. Like i said...if we all went to get our money it wouldnt be there and thats why it has everything to do with us.


Considering the money you keep in the bank or under the mattress isn't backed by anything and is worthless anyway whats the difference if the bank creates the money out of thin air?

Your right about the money you keep in your checking, but if a situation arose where everyone wanted their money out at the same time I think we'd have bigger problems than $ to worry about. Not to mention if they didn't have the $ to give you they are FDIC insured to $100,000 so you'll get your money anyways.



posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 12:45 PM
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Originally posted by apc
It's still predatory lending. Just like title loan or cash advance places. They prey on the weak and often inexperienced or uneducated as they are easy targets.


Dear APC, if they lend to somebody who's not in a position to fully repay, they'd be losing money in reality. This happened at times at Discover card (I worked in the parent company for a while so I know). It's not a good business practice and largely unwanted risk. Of anything, a bank can try and speculate that the borrowers will be better off in a year and be able to repay. This doesn't always happen
So frankly I think that the "easy target" theory is not justufued at all.


I used an analogy once of a sexual predator. It's the same thing. Just because the ten year old "consented" doesn't make it OK.


Oh gosh that's way too far. An adult who can read and knows what a paycheck and interest rate is, is on no way comparable to a small kid (or I hope so).



posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 12:45 PM
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reply to post by apc
 


Exactly my friend....statuatory law puts sexual predators behind bars even when they havent committed the crim. Just watch cnn's to catch a predator....there is no crime committed and the illusion of intent to physically commit the crim is created by the cameras and the fake 13 year old chatting on the site but there is no commission of a crime itself. That is what we call entrapment by its simplest definition. Intent is the hardest thing to be proven in a criminal case but usually there was an actualy phsycial crime committed.

for those of you that dont know there are three parts to a crime that must exist first before it can be considered a crime:
1. mens rea (intent)
2. actus reus (the act itselft)
3. the first two must be concurrent in creating a resultant harm.



posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 12:47 PM
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reply to post by apc
 


I know i need to give my car away but cant remember? That logic is supposed to paly into the fact that they shouldnt be doing business like this in the first place. I took out the loan or credit and i will pay it back but its because of that logic that they have no right to charge me rediculous interest and fees which makes it harder to get out of debt. Dont misunderstand me.



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