Cop's demand citizenship proof in Arizona from all citizens

www.townhall.com...

Because a cop got killed by an illegal Mexican immigrant, all of the cop's in one town are demanding that everyone they stop produce PROOF of citizenship. If a person does not have written proof, which is NOT required by any Federal or State law, and cannot be Constitutionally, or if a person speaks a language with which the cop is not familiar, then the person gets hauled in and must prove that they are indeed a citizen.

This is blatantly illegal: NO PERSON in the entire USA has to answer ANY QUESTIONS PUT TO THEM BY A COP ON THE STREET. None. There is NO requirment that we speak to a cop or answer any questions. If the cop has no probable cause to believe that a person is here illegally, then by LAW that person must be freed. Refusing to answer cop's questions is LEGAL, and cannot lead to an arrest for ' suspicion ' or any other flimsy cop excuse for violating our rights.

If a person stopped remains silent about his citizenship, then the cop's have no basis for any further contact. What illegal is going to admit it to a cop? Why give a real name to check? This is totally ineffective as a way to stop the bad illegals, the criminals, and will only serve to allow more abuses by the cop's of us all. The Arizona cop's will have to learn the hard way: No court in the land will allow cop's for ANY reason to DEMAND conversation or proof of citizenship or written proof: It is illegal to do so, and of course the cop's only want a fast and easy way to arrest and harrass as many people as possible while violating the very laws they purport to uphold. Remember:

If they can demand it from them, they can demand it from US, and remember also that NO LAW exists in the USA that demands written ID or proof of citizenship. It is supposed to be ASSUMED that you are legal unless there is PROBABLE cause to believe otherwise: The cop's want to place the burden of proof on US instead of THEM!! Naturally, the easiest way for them that also takes our rights away is exactly what they want.

As soon as it gets to court it will be thrown out. No one ever has to answer any questions put to them by any cop, and are advised never to speak to them without an attorney present. Make them work for their cases, and not rely on us to incriminate ourselves so they can have an easier life. Probable cause or go away..that is what cop's should be told.

Trolling Removed

[edit on 12/23/2007 by Djarums]

In the case of Terry v. United States the police are allowed to request identification AND preform a weapons check on any person that is suspected to commiting a crime (only reasonable doubt is required not probable cause). Since being in this country without going through the proper channels is illegal then technically the police have a right to do an identification check on anyone suspected of being here illegaly. Now about requiring every person in a town to show identification that was made illegal as established by a case in Texas (Brown v. Texas). On the realistic side, a refusal to answer a police officers question on the street, especially after a cop has been killed, will most likely end up with you arrested on some bs charges anyway (most likely disorderly conduct). So I think the point of this whole speil is that if the cops want you they got you.

[edit on 23-12-2007 by lugnut387]

It kind of depends on how you look at it. You can say that citizens have the right to not be required to prove citizenship...but illegals are not citizens and hence they do not have that right.

I lived in the Phoenix area for a little over 7 years. If Sheriff Joe wants it that way, that is the way it's going to be done.

He was also on CNN not too long ago saying that Arizona now has a zero tolerance for illegals in the state, so while the shooting might have had something to do with the new policy, I don't think that it is the only reason.

An officer can ask you for anything, but you are not required to speak.

Having a proper ID is something that allows you to speak without having to utter a sound.

Its best to keep it someplace that doesn't require you to reach behind you to get it so that these trigger happy officers that live on the edge won't get any more nervous than they already are.

a cops job is to enforce the law, and if you are here illegally, then you are breaking the law. oh, i'm sorry, its not pc to call them illegal, they are undocumented workers right.

i don't know where the OP is from, but here in texas we have a major problem with illegal aliens. they are increasingly commiting crimes, foremost among them is DUI.

i am all about watching the cops and making sure they observe our rights, but in this case they are doing their job. remember, if you are here illegally, you basically have no rights, as only citizens are protected

It does not matter where you are or what your issues are with illegals. The law says that we as citizens ( meaning anyone here in the USA until proven otherwise) do NOT have to carry ID, we do NOT have to answer any questions, and we do NOT have to prove we are citizens just because we 'look ' Latino or speak Spanish. That is called ' Racial Profiling ', and it is illegal.

I as a white English speaking American will NEVER be asked by some cop for citizenship papers: ONLY the dark skinned and ' foreign ' looking will be bullied into answering questions about their status.

The place to find out if a person is here illegally is when they are arrested for some CRIME and then they can check all they want to: But on the street, no one has to answer ANY personal or legal questions, and they are advised NOT to.

A TERRY search is a pat down of the outer clothing to see if a person ' reasonably suspected ' of committing a crime. It does NOT apply to those who are just out in public doing nothing wrong. it also does NOT demand that we answer: A cop can ASK all he wants, sure, but we have NO legal obligation to answer, and our refusal to answer may NOT be used as ' reasonable grounds' or ' probable cause ' in any way, shape or form. Our silence cannot be used agaionst us. A cop CANNOT legally assume ANYTHING from silence or the lack of written ID.

Some of you seem to think that Sheriffs have all the power in the world: They do not, and must answer to a court of law. Damn what he wants. What matters is the rule of law, and that says that we have rights despite the issues we face with illegals. There are plenty here where I live, yet I do not want to see all of our rights and protections thrown away over some kneejerk reaction to political foolishness.

It is very simple: Cop's must obey the law too!! Believe it or not!! And the only way to make sure that they do is to exercise our rights. Never speak to a cop, never give them any personal or legal info, and always hire an attorney and sue the cop's when they make the slightest error. Let's keep em honest and keep our rights!!

By the way, for all you out there that believe that cop's have some kind of ' intuition ' that tells them who is illegal and who is not: you are wrong. HOW do you tell if a person is an American or an illegal alien? Here is how:

You find probable cause for a legal arrest, and then you run his prints, or ask him, or whatever. But until a legal arrest for a real CRIME has been made, there is NO WAY TO TELL WHO IS LEGAL. Is there? No. One Cuban from Miami who was born here might very well look like a ' Mexican ' to some moronic cop looking for an easy bust, but he would be wrong, now wouldn't he? LOOKS CANNOT be used as a reliable measure of residency legality!!

Since cop's CANNOT legally assume that anyone is illegal, and since we are NOT required to answer any questions or provide writen ID, then all the cop's can do is BREAK THE LAW to continue this racial profiling, or abide by the law, and leave people alone until they are arrested for some REAL crime. As if illegals are going to tell the truth anyway to some cop.

Some here need some respect for the law, and less for the nonsense spsewed by the cop's. They hate us all!! And they will profilr us and abuse us if we let them, and the first step is stuff like this: " They came for the illegals, and I said nothing..then they came for.."

reply to post by eyewitness86


You sound like a person who has had experience at the wrong end of the law. For you to lump all cops into one group of haters, is well, wrong.

Do you have any idea how difficult of a job it is to be a police officer? They have to expect that anyone is capable of shooting them. They have to deal with drunken idiots, and dope heads. They have to deal with any number of criminal types, and situations. Nope, not everyone is guilty, but the police have to use quick judgement a lot of the times. There are a few rogue cops out there, but all of them who are on the streets are not bad. It takes a very special person to dedicate their lives to the job they have to do.

They are following orders and proceedures handed down from higher ups.

If you don't like a policy, you need to take it up the ladder.

news.yahoo.com...

Mexican illegal immigrant Lindi sat down with her husband Marco Antonio in the weeks before Christmas to decide when to go back to Mexico.

In the past year, U.S. immigration police have stepped up workplace sweeps across the country and teamed up with a growing number of local forces to train officers to enforce immigration laws.

It's amazing what happens when we actually enforce our laws!

This is completely legitimate and about damn time too!

You realize this came about because a police officer was slain by an illegal immigrant, right?

You realize the police didn't know he was an illegal and had arrested him twice prior, right?

You realize that if he was deported the first time for being an illegal that officer would still be alive, right?


Get over yourself, this is no conspiracy. It's a city standing up for itself.

reply to post by Enthralled Fan



I know more about policing than you, guaranteed. It is idiotic to imagine that some cop would have been alive if he had been deported: All they do is come back, and you know it. They will come back until they are locked up for some crime. If that guy that killed the cop had been deported yet again, he would have come back and klled the cop anyway. No way to assure safety from the system we have, or a more draconian one that violates rights.

You weeping willows here that are defending the illegal use of racial profiling are bigots and should be asahmed. Prejudice never helps. ONLY Latinos will get asked about PROVING tyheir citizenship, and that is wrong. Anytime the cop's assume anything, we suffer. It amazes me that you believe that the life of a cop is more valuable than yours, or any other civilians. If a cop gets killed, the others fall all over themselves violating rights and using improper means to get back at all people who fit the profile of the accused. It is wrong morally and legally.

Some of you here actaully applaud the cop's demanding proof when no law requires it: No one knows who is a citizen or not just by looking: What is happening here is PROFILING, and if you support racial profiling, then you are a bigot. It is ILLEGAL, people. Do you support breaking more laws to avenge some cop? Is that what the cop's life stood for? Is that what his memory brings? Abuse of the law, profiling and unConstitutional questioning are NOT American values, and cop's should NEVER be allowed to change policy out of revenge.

reply to post by eyewitness86


First of all, I did not bring up the deportation issue. The person that posted after me, did.

Second of all, I live in an area where there are not just hispanics, but a wide range of races. There are many immigrants near where I live that got here legally. I don't think it is correct to stop a person just because of their race. If they match a description for a crime, then, it's understandable.

I am also of the opinion that if a person has nothing to hide, then they should not mind being "profiled" as you put it.

I am leaning towards the side of the law in the thought of, better safe than sorry.

Unfortunately, we live in a time when there are a lot of illegal immigrants here. Along with that bunch, there are people slipping in who could be terrorist, or here hiding out for crimes that were done in other countries.

Profiling doesn't always fit the bill, either, as a 72 year old female relative of mine was taken aside at the airport (November 2005) and searched. All her luggage, too. By the way, she is white, about 4'9" and weighs maybe 85 lbs on a good day. She said she actually felt safer, getting on a plane afterwards.

As I mentioned earlier, the police are just following orders. If you don't like the way they are doing business, get active besides posting here. Write your state representative. Call the ACLU, and complain. Call your local Sheriff and complain.

Just writing about how much you dislike police on this site, is not going to help the situation you have such disdain for.

Well I can say that I am no bigot. I do 100% agree with what they have been doing in AZ. What makes you think that your or the life of this illegal immigrant is more important than the men and women that put there lives on the line everyday to help protect the good natured citizens?

There's enough bad to deal with, with our own citizens. There is obviously a problem with the amount of non-documented people coming over the border.

The law needs to be changed for the better of this country. To many people try to get into this country the right way. Maybe we should just tell them to go south of the border and come over illegally? The law needs to change ASAP for the good of all the current citizens and for the immigrants that are trying to come here legally.

reply to post by eyewitness86

I know more about policing than you, guaranteed.

You do? How do you know this? What is your guarantee?
What exactly do you know and how?

reply to post by eyewitness86

They hate us all!!

Uh, no they dont. Most of my friends are cops....they are nothing like you continually rant about here. Nothing.

You are really very bitter towards the men and women of law enforcement.

Why is that?

Originally posted by greeneyedleo
reply to post by eyewitness86

 

I know more about policing than you, guaranteed.

You do? How do you know this? What is your guarantee?
What exactly do you know and how?

First, I graduated the police acadamy at Miami Dade Jr. College in the early 70's, was in the security field for many years, and was a SWORN POLICE OFFICER with the City of Miami police as a special officer for over a year. My Dad was a cop in Miami for 30 years, Uncle was the Chief, and cousin the FBI agent. I grew up in a police station. I have seen it all. I have ridden along so many times that it got boring. I have personally arrested more than 100 person for theft at retail stores as a security chief and have a 99.5 conviction rate.

AND YOU???????

Originally posted by greeneyedleo
reply to post by eyewitness86

 

They hate us all!!

Uh, no they dont. Most of my friends are cops....they are nothing like you continually rant about here. Nothing.

You are really very bitter towards the men and women of law enforcement.

Why is that?


Because I know the TRUTH, and you do NOT!! I have NO issues with the one percent ( 1 % ) of all cop's that really obey the law and do not abuse their authority. Even the former Chief of Police of Seattle. Norm Stamper, said that " 99% of all street cop's have perjured themselves on the stand to make a case stick". 99%. Can you comprehend what that means?

The vast MAJORITY of all cop's WILL lie under oath, they WILL arrest falsely to make a point, they WILL ask citizens to throw away their Constitutional Rights so that things are easier for them..all proven. WHY do you think that virtually ALL cop's ask us to give up our rights for CONSENT searches? because they LOVE to go fishing..on OUR boat and with OUR bait!! Cop's who bully and bluff, cop's who lie and intimidate..this is the NORM, and if you do not believe that then you are either grossly uneducated about reality or you are just another cop lover who loves to lick the jackboots of the oppressor.

Some people just cannot see the big picture, and perhaps you are one. You have my sympathies.

Originally posted by zoso28
a cops job is to enforce the law, and if you are here illegally, then you are breaking the law. oh, i'm sorry, its not pc to call them illegal, they are undocumented workers right.

i don't know where the OP is from, but here in texas we have a major problem with illegal aliens. they are increasingly commiting crimes, foremost among them is DUI.

i am all about watching the cops and making sure they observe our rights, but in this case they are doing their job. remember, if you are here illegally, you basically have no rights, as only citizens are protected

ah, the old "you shouldn't care if you don't have anything to hide" defense. Boo to that. That's the type of mentality that has allowed our freedoms to erode away to their present state. Thanks for being part of the problem.