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The Truth About Rapture

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posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 11:56 AM
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I am not promoting this idea as being the correct concept regarding the Rapture.


Over the years I have come across many ideas in regard to the rapture, one of which, had to do with the word used in II Thessalonians 2:3:

Apostasy : Apostasia

Being defined: A Falling Away, Defection, Apostasy

Noting the word "defection," the idea was "abandonment." The individual stated that what Paul was addressing in II Thessalonians 2:3 and this "defection" had nothing to do with departure from Faith, but instead, the literal departure of the Christians from the earth.

This is what the Thessalonian Christians had understood previously and is what Paul makes reference to when he says, "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? " (v5) In other words, 'Hello, aren't we still here?"

As for the "he" who now restrains, to the best of my knowledge, I believe this individual referenced the "he" of V7 to the body of Christ, with the understanding that we are His body and He is the Head, so He would be that body being removed.

Like I said, I read this years and years ago. Has anyone else encountered this theory? Like I stated above, I am not promoting this as the
ANSWER!




posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 12:19 PM
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Originally posted by jdposey
Has anyone else encountered this theory?


Yes! I raised this question on a Christian forum I also attend and that is the answer I was given. There are a few different Greek terms for apostasy. As I was told by some very knowledgeable Christians, the Greek term meaning 'a spiritual falling away' was not used in this case. The Greek term useed in this case means... 'disappearance!'

Is this correct? I do not know as I am not fluent in Greek. I did my best to check this person's claims with a lexicon and he does seem correct in some aspects but I simply do not know for sure.

As to the 'he' reference. First of all, the church is always referred to in the feminine sense- not masculine. But that is not what is important. In the original Greek I have been told the word in English as 'he' is actually neutral gender as 'it.' God and Jesus are always referred to in the masculine sense. Again, the church is always referred to in the feminine sense. So who is this 'it?' Let us look at the context:


And now you know what is holding him [The Antichrist] back, so that he [The Antichrist] may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.


So we have 'what' and 'the one' and some who say the word 'he' in Greek is actually an 'it' but that it was improperly translated into English. Again, I do not speak Greek but it is interesting.

If this 'it' is sealed within us and the 'it' goes, then whoever contains the 'it' 'disappears.' I'll leave it up to the individual to reach their own conclusion.



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 12:29 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


I am glad that I wasn't the only one to have run across this concept. I have seen so very little concerning it over the years, that it completely escaped my thoughts, until I came back to catch up on this thread.

It would be WONDERFUL if Paul was not referencing a falling away from the faith. I would much rather there be a great revival regarding the faith but, if we look closely around, I am afraid we are rather seeing people defecting their faith.

As one black woman, whom I dearly love, once said, 'Oh, lode Jesus! Whut'we'gonna'do?


[edit on 28-2-2008 by jdposey]



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 12:37 PM
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reply to post by jdposey
 


The thing, we can totally ignore this passage from Paul and look at all the others that state there will be a falling away in the end times. We have already passed through the "Golden Age" and the "First Awakening" and the "Second Awakening" of the 18th and 19th centuries. We are now in the time of the falling away as prophesied in just about every book of the New Testament. We can ignore this passage in Thessalonians and still see the dozens of prophecies that talk about the falling away in the end times.



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 12:51 PM
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Originally posted by AshleyD
reply to post by jdposey
 


The thing, we can totally ignore this passage from Paul and look at all the others that state there will be a falling away in the end times. We have already passed through the "Golden Age" and the "First Awakening" and the "Second Awakening" of the 18th and 19th centuries. We are now in the time of the falling away as prophesied in just about every book of the New Testament. We can ignore this passage in Thessalonians and still see the dozens of prophecies that talk about the falling away in the end times.


Most definitely, what we see with ours eyes, we can not deny. No matter how much some would attempt to squeeze revival into scripture, and there are some who believe there will be a great awakening take place, an apostasy is taking place right now and is gaining steam every day.

If a great awakening should come about, then I would hope it would take place in the tribulation, but even then, men will be witnessing wonderous things and still curse God.



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 02:07 PM
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AshleyD. Thank you soooo much for spending so much time on this! I'd like to point out first, that we are not here to defend our honour, we have no honour as such, we are defenders of the Truth-His honour!! You've said so much, it's difficult to address each idea, but as a whole, I DO agree with you, because the Word is true. I don't think you are any of those things which you get accused of! I only wanted to point out that noone "loses" the Holy Spirit, because you can't, it is a sealing from the Living God. We cannot defect or fall away from a seal that God has placed in us. It's just not humanly possible at all.

So as for the parable of the ten virgins, He cannot be talking about the Holy Spirit as the oil, it must be something else here. Oil, if you look in the concordance, is the same thing Yahshua gives on the mount of Olives (Oil)
so the entire chapter 24 Matt is 'oil' THEN chapter 25 ironically is talking about just that, but there are no ironics or coincidences with our Messiah

He always gives you the meaning, if we have ears to hear and eyes to see.
I believer everything in the bible interprets itself for you.
For example:
Lamps=candlestickes/lampstand=churches
So it is interesting that in the parable of the ten virgins that they all carry the church with them, but a church without the word or oil is no church of Yahshua's is it. So the wise virgins also carried the oil in their vessels=bodies. We are the the vessels that are part of the body of Christ, we build that firm foundation upon the Rock of our salvation and the Rock is the true church, the one that keeps their vessels filled continually with the Word of Yahweh.

I can't tell you how many times I've read commentaries, books, sermons that have no oil in them. Meaning that some people continually go elsewhere to find truth instead of going to the source of the truth, which is the Word. In (2 Thess 2:14-15) Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore,brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. We as believers, are told to stand fast (rather than fall away or defect) from the truth that was delivered BY the true witnesses, those who delivered it right into our homes today. What is SEALED is their testimony and witness to the truth, they did this free of charge, they haven't asked us for a dime. BUT, today, there are those that DO ask for money, they continually try and sell the word in their own interpretation. And I can raise my hand and say I've fallen many times into their trap, I've spent some money on books and stuff, only to find that they leave me empty, they don't take root. Why? Because only the Word of God which Yahshua sowed can and will take root. When the storms come and the wind, everything is going to blow away but the Word which remains rooted in a believer, that is the oil that the 5 wise virgins filled their vessels with.

(sorry for mistakes) I'm kindo of in a hurry-be back later! Love Ya all and may Yahweh Bless you always and keep you in His Son, Yahshua!!!



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 11:59 PM
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Originally posted by jdposey
As for the "he" who now restrains, to the best of my knowledge, I believe this individual referenced the "he" of V7 to the body of Christ, with the understanding that we are His body and He is the Head, so He would be that body being removed.

Like I said, I read this years and years ago. Has anyone else encountered this theory?


Yes, I posted that on the first page of this thread also. The first explanation I heard on that was by Adrian Rogers from a sermon called "Satan's Superman" about 14 years ago. He really broke down that verse. He also taught on the greek word apostasia "falling away" refers to more of a departure or removal.

The more I studied 2 Thess 2 and the greek text, it makes the most sense. Here is a site that has a decent reference to the greek meaning and topic: bibleprophesy.org...

If you can find an audio version of the sermon I was mentioning, check it out. He was a good man and teacher.


[edit on 29-2-2008 by defcon365]



posted on Feb, 29 2008 @ 06:47 AM
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reply to post by defcon365
 



Hi, Defcon! Thanks for the link. I skimmed over it, but will look at it in detail. It appears to be a very well laid out study. As for Adrian Rogers, yes, I listened to him a few times over the radio and he always seemed to present his teachings in a very well structured way, so that they were not difficult to understand.



posted on Feb, 29 2008 @ 08:08 AM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


The "he" as I have been taught is a reference to the removal of the Holy Spirit via the rapture. When all christians are taken there is nothing to restrain the lawlessness that will take over the world as lead by the antichrist.



posted on Feb, 29 2008 @ 08:12 AM
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JD/Ashley..great idea to discuss "the falling away" as related to this time. I haven't come across a discussion on that on ATS. I was wondering if there are any stats from major denominations wrt to this? I talk to some missionairies that have seen growth in areas such as China/Phillipenes/Mexico. On the other hand I know of some churches in the US that have went from several thousand members to nothing.



posted on Feb, 29 2008 @ 12:08 PM
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Originally posted by BlackProjects
The "he" as I have been taught is a reference to the removal of the Holy Spirit via the rapture. When all christians are taken there is nothing to restrain the lawlessness that will take over the world as lead by the antichrist.


That's exactly what I was saying.


'It/He' is sealed inside of us. Then 'It/He' is taken out of the way. Then those who are sealed with 'It/He' go bye-bye as well!'

And just in case Dbates (hopefully that got his attention
) ever gets to read this here is a pretribulation interpretation of II Thessalonians 2:1-8.

Before I thought it was saying that the gathering of the saints would not come until the great apostasy (spiritual falling away) and the rise of the Antichrist. But after having it explained to me and realizing I missed a huge reference, what was once my biggest Scriptural opposition to the pretribulation view has now become, in my opinion, one of the biggest supporters of it.

Starting with verse 1, the Christians of Paul's day were in a panic because they thought they missed 'the gathering.' Paul tells them to chill out because [and this is where I was wrong before] the tribulation will not start until the aforementioned things take place. I originally thought it was saying the 'gathering' would not occur until the Antichrist arose and the apostasy had begun.

The huge part I missed was: "Day of the Lord." I felt so stupid for not seeing it earlier because the 'Day of the Lord' does not simply mean His official second coming but is an idiom for the very last days, the seven year tribulation, and His second coming. It is simply an idiom for the end times.

The interpretation I was given is this:

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ being gathered to him, we ask you brothers not to become easily unsettled... [Meaning: the Christians were in a panic and thought they had been left behind].

By some report supposed to have come from us saying The Day of the Lord had already come... [Meaning: It becomes obvious the Christians thought they had missed the rapture and were now in the tribulation!]

Don't let anyone deceive you for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed... [Meaning: Don't let anyone think you were not 'true Christians' because you were left behind to suffer through the tribulation and that the tribulation has started because it won't start until the rebellion and the rise of the Antichrist.]

The "Day of the Lord" being an idiom is very important to understanding this verse. THEN Paul continues to reprimand them by saying "Don't you remember all of this what I told you? And now you know what is holding the Antichrist back" [Us who are sealed with the Holy Spirit].

If the word for rebellion is more correctly translated as 'departure' like many claim, then Paul is saying the tribulation [the Day of the Lord] will not begin until the departure and then the Antichrist will rise.

So that is one interpretation.

[edit on 2/29/2008 by AshleyD]



posted on Feb, 29 2008 @ 12:31 PM
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reply to post by BlackProjects
 


You know, I don't think I have ever seen anything related to falling away in relations to numbers, of course, I am sure the Lord has his numbers and we would be shocked to see them.

I was in a television ministry for some time and did talk shows, and I encountered reports, much like you stated in your post, the alarming number of preachers within the United States that were throwing in the towel and walking away. It really disturbed me.



posted on Feb, 29 2008 @ 02:30 PM
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reply to post by defcon365
 


Guess my last post was ignored, so I'll just move forward


Anyway defcon365, I looked over the link you gave it is VERY detailed, dare I say almost overly detailed lol. Someone spent a long time on this!

I'm going to say this one more time and even your link agrees..
The falling away Paul is talking about in 2nd Thess is definately NOT a removal of believers. First we need to realise that Paul is writing to believers, that's you and me included. First he beseeches us, brothers by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering together unto him. The first thing he is begging us not to do is be shaken in mind or troubled, neither by spirit, word or letter from them as that day is at hand. It doesn't make sense why Paul would go into such detail about the falling away, son of perdition, lying signs and wonders, strong delusion if the reader is being removed before all this happens. We will be present during all of this and it will be our steadfastness in the Word (verse 15) that keeps us from falling away.....WE are constantly reminded throughout the New Testament to "Let no man deceive us by any means"

Has anyone ever thought that believing in the rapture could be a deception from the enemy? Let's say you are expecting a rapture and that's what you get, but it ain't our Messiah who has wisked you away. We've got to be extremely careful as a believer, not to fall for lies and wonders, not even signs. We walk by faith, not by sight. The truth is this; when you accept Jesus (Yahshua Messiah) as your Lord and Savior, you are saved, provided you keep that same testimony of faith throughout your lifetime. He has 'called you out' already. He say's my sheep know my voice.

(2 Corinth 10:4-5) For the weapons of our warfare are not carnel, but mighty through God to pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.

(1 Corinth 15:51-52) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed

Here is the last trump: (Rev 11:15) And the seventh angel sounded; and there were voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world
are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever

(John 5-29) ... shall come forth: they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.



posted on Feb, 29 2008 @ 03:55 PM
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Originally posted by Elisha4Yah
Guess my last post was ignored, so I'll just move forward


Aw, I wasn't 'ignoring' you, Hon. Just don't like getting into tit-for-tat's with Christians about the rapture. And I know it isn't about defending my honor. You just have no idea how many times I have been called a 'false prophet' on here among other things (although I know you never said such).


On a thread about a month ago there was a member who spent about 2-3 pages of the thread calling me a FP after I mentioned the end time prophecies relating to Israel. After finally getting sick of him and posting scripture that explicitly backed up what I was saying he instead made a joke about it all but never really apologized.


So, I defend 'my' honor by posting the scripture that backs up what I am saying then move along! If I don't, then those who aren't as educated on the subject might dismiss everything else I say if they think the accusation is true.




posted on Feb, 29 2008 @ 04:07 PM
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Originally posted by AshleyD
And just in case Dbates (hopefully that got his attention
) ever gets to read this

I see all.


Okay, I follow your logic and think you're spot on but what about the inclusion of the revelation of the antichrist beforehand?



Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed,


That's the catch that has me wondering "what if". The question would then be, "What does it mean for the Antichrist to be revealed". Is it when he stands in the Holy Place and declares himself to be God? That's the path I'm leaning towards. I honeslty believe that the first 3 1/2 years of his covenant will be some of the most peaceful times here on good ole Earth. To most individuals, this guy will just be a great leader who has managed to solve some of the world's worst problems. Then, he reveals himself. "I am God."

I'm not discounting the Rapture but I do lean towards a mid-Trib scenario. As you mentioned this "Day of the Lord" can't be the day of Second Coming. I don't think anyone who has read Isaiah, or Ezekial would question if that time had come yet. That could hardly suprise anyone.



posted on Feb, 29 2008 @ 04:18 PM
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Originally posted by Elisha4Yah
Has anyone ever thought that believing in the rapture could be a deception from the enemy? Let's say you are expecting a rapture and that's what you get, but it ain't our Messiah who has wisked you away.

Ooooh! Now that's an interesting thought. I wouldn't worry about it too much though. Firstly, (Before we all forget) the subject of the Rapture is a non-salvation issue so we should all relax and not worry about if your ideas are 100% correct or not? Jesus didn't say "That whosoever believeth in the Rapture will have everlasting life". If you believe in Jesus and follow him, you can't accidently go off in the wrong rapture.

Secondly, if the Rapture is a sudden thing, you won't be given a choice in the matter. I doubt you'll see angels that ask you "Hey, would you like to come with us?".



posted on Feb, 29 2008 @ 04:27 PM
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Originally posted by dbates
That's the catch that has me wondering "what if". The question would then be, "What does it mean for the Antichrist to be revealed".


It could be that or when he confirms the seven year covenant. 'Revealed' could mean he is finally out in the open now concerning his leadership status whereas before he was just a small time player of some sort. We'll have a pretty good idea he is the Antichrist due to this covenant as well as the other prophecies concerning the Antichrist. And then we will know absolutely for sure without a doubt once he makes the claim to be God.

Just my thoughts.

Edit to add: Remember, the seven year tribulation begins at the signing of the covenant that happens to be confirmed by the AC. Hence, he will be revealed. Will we be gone by then? Let's hope so! If not, your bunker or mine?

[edit on 2/29/2008 by AshleyD]



posted on Feb, 29 2008 @ 05:07 PM
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Well, I called up my neighbor who experienced rupture--you know, the one who did himself an injury. He's okay, and he agrees with what you say here. Laughing about rupture is not funny.

I asked him how to avoid rupture and he suggested you stay loose. It seems he suffered rupture by taking himself way too seriously, and getting grumpy and nasty at people who just want to have fun. Food for thought...



posted on Mar, 1 2008 @ 02:02 PM
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Originally posted by AshleyD

Originally posted by Elisha4Yah
Guess my last post was ignored, so I'll just move forward

Aw, I wasn't 'ignoring' you, Hon. Just don't like getting into tit-for-tat's with Christians about the rapture. And I know it isn't about defending my honor. You just have no idea how many times I have been called a 'false prophet' on here among other things (although I know you never said such).



Hey I understand AshleyD, I really and truly am not trying to play the tit for tat game at all. I do take what is being discussed in this thread seriously. My aim here is to learn something I may have missed-along this road of life-from other believers such as yourself and other genuine believers in this thread and in this forum and in my life. Also, I believe that Yahshua has blessed me with time and opportunity. The world is not taking much of me at this time, so I can devote my time to His Word. I believe He has revealed a great deal of Himself to me, but being that there is a full body and I'm only a small piece, it is our duty to share what He has shown us to others. I might be the hands, you the feet, you're ready to take off running and I'm holding you back (just an example of how important we all are for one another) but most important is the Head, which is Yahshua. Without Him, we are decapitated.

I agree with Dbates, that no matter what happens, if we keep our focus on the real Messiah, we won't fall for the fake.

There are special people whose job it is to know real money from counterfit, they don't study the counterfit, they study the REAL, so any time something fake pops up they can easily recognise it. Sometimes, I think we spend way too much time studying the counterfit Messiah......



posted on Mar, 1 2008 @ 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by dbates


The question would then be, "What does it mean for the Antichrist to be revealed".


"Revealed" means we will catch a glimpse of the AntiChrist. It doesn't mean that we will be here to suffer under him, only that he will be revealed to us...and then we are out of here.

It should be noted that in 2 Thess. 2:3, two things must happen before the rapture:
1. A falling away first.
This is apostasy. It is abandoning doctrine that once was important and now is not anymore. This is already happening. Please consider that no more than 100 years ago the idea of woman pastors would have been laughed at by even the most heretical denomination. 30 years ago the idea of a gay pastor...the same. But the idea of apostasy goes a bit beyond abandoning an important doctrine, it mostly means that the doctrine was never important to begin with. This is happening all around us. Doctrine just doesn't matter anymore. Jesus' words are explained away so that they no longer mean anything. We are well beyond the apostasy, so the only event left is:

2. ...and that man of sin be revealed...
This is the only event left to happen. When the AntiChrist is revealed to us...it's all over. Again, this "revealing" doesn't mean much more than we are made aware of...we catch a glimpse of...the AntiChrist.

I've long suspected that it won't be necessarily anything unnatural that the AntiChrist does/says, but that we will "see" him as he is by having our eyes opened by the Holy Spirit at the same time.

I've heard some folks claim that they "think" Barack Obama is the AntiChrist. The problem is, many others make no such claim. I suspect that when the AntiChrist is revealed, he will be revealed to the majority of believers at the exact same time...and there will be no doubt at all. This revelation of who he IS will be terrifying to believers...more frightening than your worst fears... THEN we will be raptured. (Perhaps mere seconds later.)




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