Theists of all sorts, please explain this for me.

Originally posted by ben91069
People tell you the truthful answers and you discount them on every "broken record" excuse you have been using since you signed up on these boards. What answer could anyone give you that you would believe?

madnessinmysoul lacks personal experience of it. He reminds me of yself before I joined The Church. I don't think that this is what he wants, rather he wants observances to the experiences without feeling them.

I am at a loss as to how you could experience it without getting as trapped as they are. My experience leaving the church is by far rare and I wouldn't wish it on you if it were even likely to occur.

Do you know Alister McGrath? I was a lot like him. CS Lewis too. I can't believe how much New Atheists hate these guys, but I feel for them. Their chances of escaping their prison is remote. How can you not have pity?

If you don't forget what you think you know, you will never be able to accept new information.

It's not a matter of forgetting it. It's a matter of saying, I don't have faith in it, I'm not goiing to hold it regardless of any evidence. Put faith to the sword. School is always like that ESPECIALLY if you study philosophy.

Take Philosophy 101 or something equivalent and every lecture you will reject the position you had the day before. That's what it's all about. It's extremely educational.

C

OK, here goes. *straps on armor and prepares for barrage of bully comments*

I started to read through this thread, MIMS, and I ended up skimming it just enough to see that it was the same old deluded song and dance in the answers given to your question.

Frankly, I can't read that nonsense anymore without feeling bored and restless, and depending on the depth and scope of the delusion, queasy as well. I have been studying reason and belief extensively for the past year and the more I study, the more I diverge from a need for superstition of any kind. But most especially for the emotional whirlwind of the cult of the invisible friend (of whichever denomination it may be).

You have arrived at the same place I am at, more or less, but in about half the time. It's natural for someone your age to be more open to influences (no offense meant) that want you to at least try the god. Or the drink. Or the drug. Experimentation is a normal part of being young. That's the sense that I got from your post. You pretty much have arrived at a rational answer for religion, but you still have a need to question yourself and your beliefs -- they get set more in stone when you get old, like me. And don't get Occam started.

Personally, I find the whole "you'll get the still small voice" thing creepy and redolent of junkies trying to get someone else to try the drug that makes them feel good about themselves. Drugs induce emotional states akin to bliss and euphoria. I know this, because I did several types of mind-altering substances in my youth -- at about your age and for the next 8 to 10 years beyond.

I also had the experience of religious ecstasy when young, in a church setting, when I ended up crying and feeling overwhelmed and went up to be "saved."

You know what? Both the church experience and the experiences with two particular illegal substances felt exactly the same.

Religion is a drug, in other words. It's the only acceptable drug in all cultures. A drug alters state of mind, and can affect brain chemistry and physiology. Religion does the same.

Once a person has decided to reason about religion and look at it objectively and logically, it does not hold up to scrutiny in any real sense. It becomes an anthropology lesson, perhaps a neurochemistry lesson, and nothing more.

You didn't hear anything because there's nothing there that anyone can prove or demonstrate, except from a subjective point of view. You didn't hear anything because your intellect has advanced far enough along the road to freedom from religion that the constant social pressure to conform and submit does not have a claim on you.

Subjective experiences do not carry any weight. They are not valid sources of proof of anything. As I said in the Atheist Chat thread, a follower of any particular sect of Christianity has over 99.99% chance of being wrong, let alone any other religion.

You want support in this thread? You got it. I think you are a remarkable young man, and I think that if you can completely unburden yourself of the expectations society has for one to be religious, you'll do well for yourself in life. At least you'll see things as they really are, and accept them for what they are. That's more than most people can do in a lifetime. Many people go to their life's end in expectation of rewards in an afterlife that does not exist. They lead lives of self-denial, guilt and feelings of righteous superiority that prevent them from living life to the fullest in the here and now, and cheat themselves of the fullest experience they could possibly have. All because they think that they'll get something better when they die.

The more I embrace my atheism, the more free I feel. It's a relief to know that only I am in charge of my life and its disposition. It's a relief to know that when I die, it's over, and whatever meaning I get from my life will be the life itself. That there is nothing more, that I don't have some voyeuristic sky fairy watching me and keeping tally of all my good and bad deeds. I am glad to be free of the burden of a soul. It allows me to be an ethical human being because I choose to be, and not because I have to or I'll burn in hell.

MIMS, you know as well as I do that there is nothing there to talk to you other than yourself and other people. If you were to hear voices and believe you were "called" after all this study and thinking, you'd be falling into a trap of socially-acceptable delusion.

It's time people started living lives for themselves, and not for a possibly fictional person who supposedly died for their sins 2000 years ago. The guilt trip is incredible! What a burden to have to carry! No wonder people get caught in circular reasoning and contradictory mental patterns. It's the only way to cope with the mixed messages and rhetoric.

When I think of all the time I wasted, going to various churches, sweat lodges and the like, and the guilt I used to feel because I thought Jeebus was watching me and crying because I was a bad little girl, I can only shake my head.

Life is wonderful, and precious. But it's not a gift from an invisible friend. It's because two people had sex X number of years ago and the female was fertile at the time. Doesn't mean we can't make our own meaning out of it, but it does mean that there is no ulterior motive for anyone's being here.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
OK, here goes. *straps on armor and prepares for barrage of bully comments*

How can I start reading after an opening line like that > L O L..

Ok..now Ill read it..

reply to post by MajorMalfunction


I suppose after your post, I want to ask this question to MM, as well as other Atheists in this forum.

In terms of the teachings of Jesus as to how to be as a person, is there anything you disagree with? Remember, Im talking about how to be as a person now...not the rest.

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
In terms of the teachings of Jesus as to how to be as a person, is there anything you disagree with? Remember, Im talking about how to be as a person now...not the rest.

The rest is fairly important to ignore. How are people reading the Bible to know which parts to ignore?

My question is why can't Christians follow the "secular" teachings of Jesus?
Love your enemies. Check.
Do not judge others. Check.
Do not be anxious of the future. Check.

Treat others as you would have them treat you. Now this warrants special treatment. He teaches to do unto others as you would have done to you, but we don't want to be treated the way Christians want to be treated.

Many of the parables contain flaws, such as the Laborers of the Vineyard.

These last ones worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us, who bore the day's burden and the heat.
--Mt 20:1-16

It amazes me Christians think they have this figured out.

C

MIMS and MM,

When I put myself in your shoes, with the experiences that you have had, i can see where you are coming from, i honestly can.

Then, when i step back into my own i can see God in many things. The problem here is that people have faith because of experiences they have had as in what they have seen, and done. just as you base your beliefs on what you haven't seen or done.

We can talk all day about the lack of proof or logical reasoning but to someone who has a first hand account of God at work in their lives and the lives of others there is no other way to explain what they have experienced.
Before you talk about delusions and drugs i ask you to be honest and tell me what you would think if you prayed for healing for people and they had instant healing. I'm not talking about mental or emotional problems or even the odd backache, I'm talking here about instant physical healing of conditions that you can see have been cured.
What if you had never met a person in your life but could tell them something about themselves that you couldn't possibly know or told them something that makes no sense to you but makes perfect sense to them.

I am not asking for a debate on whether they did happen, i'm asking what would you think if they were your personal experiences.

just for good measure, throw in a multitude of other things that have no logical answer, realise that these things only happen when you pray to Jesus and like me the logic then says that Jesus is real.

Hence you end up like me

Originally posted by jon1
...if you prayed for healing for people and they had instant healing...

Yes, let us rest the whole case upon a hypothetical argument that never actually happened.

I've never seen a post so full of shallow blubbering and appeals to fallacy saying absolutely nothing.

Can't we put jon1 out of his misery?

C

Originally posted by Columbus
Many of the parables contain flaws, such as the Laborers of the Vineyard.

These last ones worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us, who bore the day's burden and the heat.
--Mt 20:1-16

It amazes me Christians think they have this figured out.

That is not a flaw in the parable at all. The flaw is in our concept of God (from the Christian viewpoint). Most Christians want God to be on their side exclusively without the notion that all are God's children, so from the perspective of that parable, those who worked longer and thus harder question the logic behind giving those who worked less the same wage. It isn't flawed at all but supports the entire premise that salvation is for all that believe with the same promise without regard to length or quantity of ones works. It's just that simple. If someone understands this, then they start to revere how to treat each other according to Christ' words because they understand the righteous logic behind it.

Originally posted by ben91069
That is not a flaw in the parable at all. The flaw is in our concept of God (from the Christian viewpoint). Most Christians want God to be on their side exclusively without the notion that all are God's children, so from the perspective of that parable, those who worked longer and thus harder question the logic behind giving those who worked less the same wage. It isn't flawed at all but supports the entire premise that salvation is for all that believe with the same promise without regard to length or quantity of ones works. It's just that simple. If someone understands this, then they start to revere how to treat each other according to Christ' words because they understand the righteous logic behind it.

Hi Ben!

Don't bother quoting apology to me. It's old hat. Really old. I never pointed out any flaws so you assumed that I meant the obvious one. That's just the argument between the left-wing Christians and the right-wing Christians. Not being Christian anymore, I don't play games with kid-gloves on.

From my perspective this parable is just stupid with glaring errors of assumption. Firstly the idea that people are called to work for Christ. That's a real joke. Then there's the whole idea that you get a wage out of it. Rich. And if you don't think there's ranking in the church you must really be blind.

C

Originally posted by Columbus

Originally posted by jon1
...if you prayed for healing for people and they had instant healing...

Yes, let us rest the whole case upon a hypothetical argument that never actually happened.

I've never seen a post so full of shallow blubbering and appeals to fallacy saying absolutely nothing.

Can't we put jon1 out of his misery?

C

Yes, you put up a very good case there Columbus, well done. shows the amount of reasoning that you are capable of. Give this man a star.

I don't think you or any other atheist on this thread could give me an honest answer to my question.
The mere thought of a God puts fear into you. You are not even capable of coming over to my side of the fence, even if you think it is fairy land. You see, I am capable of seeing both sides of the argument where as you are not. You can only look at things with tunnel vision. one truth and nothing in between.

The only way you can even argue your case is by what you read or by what others tell you, or, by the fact that you have not experienced anything spiritual in your life. Very open minded of you.

As for putting me out of my misery.

Originally posted by jon1
Yes, you put up a very good case there Columbus, well done. shows the amount of reasoning that you are capable of. Give this man a star.

You just showed up here. I've posted extensive arguments on this board in the past and now that you're here, say nothing and feel everyone should agree with you.

I don't think you or any other atheist on this thread could give me an honest answer to my question.

I'm sorry, did you have a question? I just heard you tell us all just to accept God so we can all just get along.

The mere thought of a God puts fear into you.

I can't even imagine a concept of god that makes sense let alone scares me, but I see that fear is the only reason anyone still believes in any god.

You are not even capable of coming over to my side of the fence, even if you think it is fairy land.

I was a Christian for many years, and now I regret the people that I helped get Saved. That is my torment. Fairyland doesn't torment me, otherwise I'd swear off all fantasy stories and movies.

You see, I am capable of seeing both sides of the argument where as you are not.

No Christian ever truly looks at the atheist side because it is quite destructive to faith. Look at my argument with WiseSheep. It is constant ignorance and evasion. The second he truly acknowledges what I put in my SIG, his faith will shake and collapse. Same with you.

Did you even notice my SIG?

You can only look at things with tunnel vision. one truth and nothing in between.

There is only one truth. It's called reality. There isn't some other reality where gods and fairies and pixies dance around with humans.

The only way you can even argue your case is by what you read or by what others tell you,...

I left the church in 1998. Back then being an atheist could get you serious threat of life. Congratulations on the warmth and lovingness of your "side". There were no people around telling me squat and I didn't have a computer either.

...you have not experienced anything spiritual in your life. Very open minded of you.

I was a part of the church for many years, split my time with MB, Ev.Free, and SB. Had bible-studies at all three at the same time. I was in the church martial arts club too. I was at church almost every day for one function or another. This is what you call Filling Your Life.

You didn't have the wherewithal to offer one thought out reason for anyone to do what you have asked.

This is what I call putting you out of your misery.

C


[edit on 27-12-2007 by Columbus]

[edit on 27-12-2007 by Columbus]

[edit on 27-12-2007 by Columbus]

reply to post by Columbus

You just showed up here. I've posted extensive arguments on this board in the past and now that you're here, say nothing and feel everyone should agree with you.

I don't expect anyone to believe me when i say God is real but when i tell of things that have been my experience, i at least expect you to mull it over and not reply with a personal attack. its called manners.

I'm sorry, did you have a question? I just heard you tell us all just to accept God so we can all just get along.

Then i suggest that you pay more attention before making your posts.

I can't even imagine a concept of god that makes sense let alone scares me, but I see that fear is the only reason anyone still believes in any god.

I know of no one who came to faith through a fear of God. In fact the reason many people come to faith is Because of the love of God.
If i said you had better believe in the tooth fairy or you will die, would it make you believe? NO. You can't make anyone have faith no matter what the threat.
This seems to be one of the atheists major points that they use, in reality it is not the case.

I was a Christian for many years, and now I regret the people that I helped get Saved. That is my torment. Fairyland doesn't torment me, otherwise I'd swear off all fantasy stories and movies.

In one breath you state that you can't even comprehend a God, then you totally contradict yourself by saying that you have helped people to be saved.
That tells me that at one time you loved God and wanted others to share that love also. What happened?

No Christian ever truly looks at the atheist side because it is quite destructive to faith.

But they do before they become a Christian.

I was a part of the church for many years, split my time with MB, Ev.Free, and SB. Had bible-studies at all three at the same time. I was in the church martial arts club too. I was at church almost every day for one function or another. This is what you call Filling Your Life.

Like i said, no experience of a spiritual life.

This is what I call putting you out of your misery.

Good job you are not a vet then.

I'm sorry Columbus, that you had such a bad experience and it turned you away. It's a common story I hear all too often. If the Shepherds were doing their jobs and truly nourishing their flocks rather than force-feeding them partial truths and falsehoods, maybe we wouldn't hear that story nearly as much. Although you probably don't want it, I pray that Father will speak to your heart and that your heart will be open to what He has to say. The narrow path is an easy one to stumble upon - even fall off of. Amen.

RAA I think you should read my post here, about how it's not bad experiences that "turn people away" from the invisible friend cult, but use of reason and logic. When thought about properly and not from a mind set that has basically been brainwashed by peer pressure and constant repetition, it's pretty easy to see that the whole god thing properly belongs in our primitive past.

Insisting on telling someone that they've "turned away" from god because they weren't handled properly by some preacher of nonsense is condescending and arrogant. It may seem to you yourself that you're being sympathetic and pitying, but it actually comes across very differently.

You're assuming people like Columbus aren't capable of making up their own minds about anything. It's the opposite, actually. Columbus did make up his own mind, and now all the cultists want him back in the cult. He managed to deprogram himself and join the modern age and I say, well done to him.

Until and unless Xians can actually hear what we nonbelievers have to say about why we don't believe, anything that is said about our motivations is nothing more than projection of delusion.

[edit on 27-12-2007 by MajorMalfunction]

We've heard the truth of the matter. It's faith or logic. Jesus said some things that I have chosen to believe. It is up to man to be the image of God in the universe. God is unseen, but just as the wind is seen by its works (moving trees etc.) God is seen through his followers. Praise God and may we strive to project his light. Always short of God, but never ceasing the climb, praise Him.

Originally posted by ReginaAdonnaAaron
I'm sorry Columbus, that you had such a bad experience and it turned you away. It's a common story I hear all too often.

Blubbering. If you hear it so often, where are the others like me?

If the Shepherds were doing their jobs and truly nourishing their flocks rather than force-feeding them partial truths and falsehoods, maybe we wouldn't hear that story nearly as much.

The Shepherds have nothing but falsehoods. That's really the point you refuse to see.

Although you probably don't want it, I pray that Father will speak to your heart and that your heart will be open to what He has to say.

More worthless blubbering.

The narrow path is an easy one to stumble upon - even fall off of. Amen.

If you're on the narrow path, how come there's such a huge crowd with you and there's so few people on the path I'm on?

C

Originally posted by depth om
It's faith or logic. Jesus said some things that I have chosen to believe.

Faith is a commitment to a belief without putting it to the test. The only way to know any truth is to put what you believe to the test. As soon as you say faith, you are saying belief is no longer open to testing, and you are no longer interested in truth.

As the man who says he believes he can jump a chasm and tries, the man who has faith doesn't need to. The truth: the believer dies, the faithful never know the truth.

God is seen through his followers.

So he must be incredibly ignorant.

C

I found this and thought of Madnesses original post..

Jesus Christ

"If you truly want to find God, that desire is in itself evidence that you have already found him. Your trouble is not that you cannot find God, for the Father has already found you; your trouble is simply that you do not know God.

Peace


[edit on 27-12-2007 by HIFIGUY]

reply to post by Columbus

Faith is a commitment to a belief without putting it to the test. The only way to know any truth is to put what you believe to the test. As soon as you say faith, you are saying belief is no longer open to testing, and you are no longer interested in truth.

No it's not. I love the way that you twist things around.
I came to faith. I believe in Jesus Christ. He says go out, drive out demons and heal the sick. I do, it works, i get my proof. sorted.

So he must be incredibly ignorant.

No he isn't, as this thread shows, Christians reach out to people with compassion when the need arises.

Originally posted by Columbus

Originally posted by ReginaAdonnaAaron
I'm sorry Columbus, that you had such a bad experience and it turned you away. It's a common story I hear all too often.

Blubbering. If you hear it so often, where are the others like me?

If the Shepherds were doing their jobs and truly nourishing their flocks rather than force-feeding them partial truths and falsehoods, maybe we wouldn't hear that story nearly as much.

The Shepherds have nothing but falsehoods. That's really the point you refuse to see.

Although you probably don't want it, I pray that Father will speak to your heart and that your heart will be open to what He has to say.

More worthless blubbering.

The narrow path is an easy one to stumble upon - even fall off of. Amen.

If you're on the narrow path, how come there's such a huge crowd with you and there's so few people on the path I'm on?

C

you never cease to amaze me Columbus. A Christian comes on full of compassion for you and all's you can do is talk down to him and say he is blubbering. you are not a very good ambassador for your cause are you. You never have answers to anything that people put to you. You just take the easy way out by trying a bit of verbal bullying on them.
All of your arguments that i have seen are so shallow that iv'e not even got my feet wet yet.