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Theists of all sorts, please explain this for me.

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posted on Dec, 23 2007 @ 06:01 PM
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Very nice analogy, WiseSheep. You get a star.




posted on Dec, 23 2007 @ 06:43 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 

When one plants a seed, he does not see its fruit at the moment he plants it, nor can he witness the germination to life in the soil...

Why does one plant the seed if not to bring forth fruit.

He that searches the minds and hearts of mankind knows your heart, and your intent.


Zechariah 7

"But they refused to pay attention; stubbornly they turned their backs and stopped up their ears. 12 They made their hearts as hard as flint and would not listen to the law or to the words that the LORD Almighty had sent by his Spirit through the earlier prophets. So the LORD Almighty was very angry. 13

" 'When I called, they did not listen; so when they called, I would not listen,' says the LORD Almighty. 14 'I scattered them with a whirlwind among all the nations, where they were strangers. The land was left so desolate behind them that no one could come or go. This is how they made the pleasant land desolate.' "


Speak aloud when your alone. No one can hear you. Go for a walk.
Speaks as though you have someone walking next to you.
Speak of your troubles, speak of your goals, and be on the lookout for little things that happen that just seem a little too frequent to be coincidental.

Madness, I am your friend despite our differences. But you have stated things in this forum that lead me to believe that God may have hardened your heart, so that he might turn you around and make you the mightiest of swords.

Its your choice...

Listen. When you least expect it, it could come to you in any number of ways. Only you will know..

Watch your dreams

Peace


[edit on 23-12-2007 by HIFIGUY]



posted on Dec, 23 2007 @ 06:46 PM
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I might add, madness, that you may not be sincere in your attempt to open your heart in the first place as evidenced in this thread. For those who are too lazy to click the link;



edit to add something, i just started this thread and could use a bit of support from an argument standpoint as i've just been deluged with responses from fundies


So you want to argue that you received no faith when you opened your heart, but at the same time you don't trust you will get faith anyway? You have to believe in what you are trying to accomplish or you won't receive anything.



1 John 5:14-15 “Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.”


It seems by the above quote that you were not really expecting anything to happen at all and are now petitioning support from the atheists on this board to argue in your defense. Is this the truth of the matter or not?



posted on Dec, 23 2007 @ 07:02 PM
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You know what, I just have to say that regardless of the OP's true intentions behind his posting, I applaud those persons of faith who reached out to him to offer support and counsel. I'm so glad to see that there is some of this still left in this dying world. Yet again, I've been witness to our heavenly Father working through His children. I myself saw a glimpse of hope and heartfelt respect, kindness and concern for someone they do not know. May Father continue to shed His light via His servants and may His will be done now and for always. Amen.



posted on Dec, 23 2007 @ 07:36 PM
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HIFI,
You are the man!!!



Madness, I am your friend despite our differences. But you have stated things in this forum that lead me to believe that God may have hardened your heart, Madness, I am your friend despite our differences. But you have stated things in this forum that lead me to believe that God may have hardened your heart, so that he might turn you around and make you the mightiest of swords.

Iron sharpens Iron, *****spark, spark***** thank you from me for that. Not many understood that when it was given to me, including myself initially, I knew that I had it but could not explain why, just that I had it. I guess I must have frightened some around me slinging it without fear. It was finally clear when I found it in scripture and was validated by it. Also the armor, I had written a countenance which I called "G-poem" and the work itself forms the armor perfectly, each piece. And when I composed it I had no idea there was any such thing, it was my daughters boyfriend who was the first to read it who stood back in amazement and shouted "look the work forms the armor of God". I could not have created it because I did not know there was such a thing.
Wether or not the original post was sincere, it has opened the door of truth to those who are sincere here, and offered us a grand opportunity to share our truth's with each other, and what a great time of year for those of us whom have been awakened to share, not only with "madness" but also each other. Iron sharpening Iron, sword on sword. Thank you to all who keep the fire burning, and thank you God for the opportunity to share with others you have touched with Your Spirit. The Body of Christ is a beautiful thing.



posted on Dec, 23 2007 @ 08:27 PM
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reply to post by ben91069
 


Well well, good spotting Ben


Your thread title " Theists of all sorts, please explain this for me"

You asked nicely enough madness,so you got replies but it seems your intention now is to cause a slug fest.

Best of luck with that,if we wanted a slug fest the posters here would have cause one in that atheist thread.Poor form dude,I`ll leave you to it.



posted on Dec, 23 2007 @ 08:29 PM
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Originally posted by ReginaAdonnaAaron
You know what, I just have to say that regardless of the OP's true intentions behind his posting, I applaud those persons of faith who reached out to him to offer support and counsel.


Likewise. I was not trying make a spectacle of him, but I would just like to make sure he is explicitly searching for the truth or just trying to create a situation where he can say "I opened my heart and God ignored me." In my opinion, God would not ignore you if you were sincere, but if you are trying to prove an opposing point, your heart will not be where it should be and your motives will not be towards understanding but to turn others away from truth.

The danger in this is that if he claims to be sincere and says he was ignored by God, then it supports his theory of atheism. The problem is, we are all just taking his word for it that he truly opened his heart. Since finding other threads where he is trying to play those with faith into a trap - if you will - so that we are caught up in debates proves he wasn't sincere at all.

I have asked him to explain hisself. Did he expect to receive something by having an open heart? How can he prove he was truly open when it is solely a first hand account? His later posts asks for support against faith and his experience.

I have to agree that many of you made an attempt to reach out, but I personally believe from what I have read that madness wants reason to support faith and not faith itself. If it were all that easy, everyone would understand.



posted on Dec, 23 2007 @ 09:31 PM
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I agree with what you said, Ben.
I'm glad you posted what you did because it's an indication of when to shake the dust and move on. Which I will now do.

If (and I say IF because at this point I still don't know and maybe never will) he started the thread to ruffle feathers and was instead met with kindness and compassion - I can't think of anything better as a testament to our Faith. Call me a Pollyanna, but I'll still hold out some hope. But, I hold out hope for everyone who hasn't come to know God - and how wonderful it is once you do. On top of that I also recognize that only God can read a person's heart and know their true intentions - so I do my utmost best not to judge. (not that you were - just explaining my personal point of view) Who knows... through God all things are possible. I just pray that those of us who reached out, acted in a way that Christ would approve of. And... something tells me we have.


[edit on 23-12-2007 by ReginaAdonnaAaron]



posted on Dec, 23 2007 @ 09:57 PM
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Originally posted by holidaystar1
Iron sharpens Iron, *****spark, spark***** thank you from me for that.


Thank you for that comment...

Steel forged from the greatest extremes is the strongest...

When I first read this post, and then saw it was madness, I almost fell off my chair. A glimmer of hope.
Madness, has particularly helped me in opening areas of reason where I might not have gone before.

But a lesson for all of us in this area is the lesson of the lady bug.

When we find a ladybug in our home, many of us rush to help her by picking her up and letting her go outside thinking we have done her a favor.

With her wings possibly crushed and or legs broken, she could be worse off then she was before we saved her.

For those of you seeking to assist, take madness at his word, neither second guess his motivation. We are not judges for we cannot see what is in his heart. The very seed that caused him to take time to ponder the opening of oneself to the possibility is planted.

He took the time to post, which means it has grown.

As we all have in our lives, he will gain, then lose, wander off, then re-enter, an exercise of sorts that is part of the path less traveled.
The question is, just where did that seed come from...really makes you wonder now doesnt it.

Peace

[edit on 23-12-2007 by HIFIGUY]



posted on Dec, 23 2007 @ 10:04 PM
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I continue to learn and see things in a new perspective via your posts HIFIGUY - even when our views agree - thank you for that.



posted on Dec, 23 2007 @ 10:15 PM
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Originally posted by holidaystar1
Iron sharpens Iron, *****spark, spark***** thank you from me for that.


What cuts steel is a good analogy in a spiritual sense. I am a machinist by trade and have taken metallurgical classes in college so I understand the nature of cutting steel. Steel can cut steel, but both the tool and the work is worn a little by the cutting action. The tool must always be harder than the work for the steel to cut steel.

However, steel can also be cut with stone and is used for very fine work. The stone does not suffer the same fate as steel cutting tools, however. Stone tools just break apart into minute particles, but steel tools become so hardened to the point that they become brittle then break if they are in continuous use - not much good as a cutting tool given enough time.

There is a lot of spiritual wisdom behind this.

[edit on 23-12-2007 by ben91069]



posted on Dec, 23 2007 @ 10:16 PM
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Interesting... furthest I ever got was Paper, Rock, Scissors!



posted on Dec, 24 2007 @ 12:25 AM
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I'm cracking up, Madness. You certainly opened the floodgates for bizarre proselytization.

Your experiment reminds me of one I did years ago. I worked with a couple of gay guys and I had a couple of gay friends. While this was perfectly acceptible to me, I got to wondering what their thinking was. I decided to look at other males and try to develop some attraction to them. I tried, I really tried, but males were just plain ugly to me and turned me off rather than the opposite.

I realized I'm just incurably straight - I just couldn't really get inside the mind of a gay guy, and there was no way I could convert. It's the same with us. We nontheists just can't really convert to theism and the theists, likewise, can't understand how we can think the way we do. The best any of us can do is accept the other without trying to change his/her orientation.

Occam



posted on Dec, 24 2007 @ 01:27 AM
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Cogito, ergo non est Deo

Pardon my dog-Latin, but what would have happened if, when you 'opened your heart', you actually felt as if something was making contact? Would it have made any difference? Should it have made any difference? After all, if you want to feel something badly enough, you can almost always make yourself feel it. Or at least believe you're feeling it. Doesn't mean for a second that it's real.

Our believing friends are right when they insist that you cannot experience what they do in a spirit of scientific inquiry. Reason shrivels faith, and faith is what you need to convince yourself that the voice inside your head is not your own.

Until you let go of your reason, you will never know the consolation of the Divine Presence.



posted on Dec, 24 2007 @ 02:11 AM
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Originally posted by Occam
We nontheists just can't really convert to theism and the theists, likewise, can't understand how we can think the way we do. The best any of us can do is accept the other without trying to change his/her orientation.

Occam


That is not entirely true, at least for me. I do understand the atheist logic, but I personally have something extra that I cannot get rid of. Now you can call it brainwashing if you will. That is probably what most atheists would call it. I don't call it that, because even though I went to church a lot when I was younger (before 17 years old), I never conformed to the religion. I always questioned the Christian religion as being mediocre - lukewarm by most members - being more of a popularity and social club than any true belief system that made sense.

The problem is, even if I wanted to be more like someone who does not consider God, I can't. I have even tried and I cannot shake it. In a way, I feel like it is a curse, because I live in the world but I know the truth at the same time, and I have to live out my time much to my displeasure. I wish I did not have to be here at all and that I was never born at all to experience what I know in light of what I see in the world. That is how strongly I wish I did not know faith at all. Its fruition is desirable but since we are not given any proof it is terrible to know something yet be powerless to share it. The reason is, it would be easier to just be a conformist, but faith is not earned but given. If I were an atheist, I could just forget about God and live life, but God will not let me go so I have no other choice but to speak what I know. That is the only thing that gives me some relief, or so it seems.

I try not to torture people with these things, but I also have to say whatever it is God makes known to me so that I do not have an internal conflict.



posted on Dec, 24 2007 @ 05:32 AM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul...due to insomnia and fairly irregular sleep patterns...
You know I suffer from a kind of insomnia myself. It's a result of working way too hard. I used to just work too hard, but I used to get tired on the way home from work and risked getting into a car accident. Now I work through until I am overtired before I head home. Then I can't sleep so I work some more at home, which works out because I also take night school courses. Then I take a walk and think to myself for a while because I am the philosophizing type. By the time I get to bed, I'm way too tired to have insomnia.


The other night I was lying in bed in thought for about 2 hours as I normally do... and thought to myself "What if there really is some sort of god/deity/spiritual thing that I need to open my "heart" to in a moment like this to truly understand faith and become religious?"

I used to do the same quite often. If you want to become pseudo-spiritual like the Church-spawn around here, just go to a weekday evening chapel service for your age group for a few weeks and make some new friends, sing some songs. You'll be "recruited" for sure, especially if you have any problems in your life.

If you want to be really spiritual, take up a real hobby. If you join a hobby club and decide you're too busy to attend or lose interest, you won't be accused of backsliding or deceiving the membership.


...so I opened myself up to Christ with that same sincerity...

I recently saw this film Golden Compass because the Catholic League has been on about it. The key to this film is that the "demon" is the other hemisphere of your brain, the part that only schizophrenics hear. If you think to yourself, talk to yourself, this is healthy but there is no other person. If you start to imagine there is another person, eventually you start to believe the voice you hear is another person. If the voice you hear says nasty things (the subconscious has no repressive mechanisms) you say that's Satan, and if you hear nice things (pretty rare) it's God-Jesus. Remember never to pray to Jesus, but to God in Jesus' name.

If you start believing all that, then you've snapped, had a psychotic break, or in the vernacular, YOU'RE SAVED/BORN-AGAIN. Then it becomes really hard to undo.

C



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 11:44 AM
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Well, Has this thread backfired for mims or what. due to his lack of participation on the thread i have to assume that things didn't quite work out as expected.

At least, we, the theists have shown our true colors. As has MIMS.
Very disappointing, but well done to the posters who let Christ shine through.

Some things never change i suppose.



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 12:08 PM
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reply to post by jon1
 


i stopped participating because i was hearing the same old broken record arguments about this kind of situation, not for any other reason.

you're right, the thread didn't turn out at all like i hoped it would, i was expecting answers instead of things like this example i'll use:


Originally posted by ben91069
So you want to argue that you received no faith when you opened your heart, but at the same time you don't trust you will get faith anyway? You have to believe in what you are trying to accomplish or you won't receive anything.


ah, but i did believe in what i was trying to accomplish. i was trying to find the truth, regardless of what that truth may be






1 John 5:14-15 “Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.”


It seems by the above quote that you were not really expecting anything to happen at all


broken record argument. i wasn't expecting anything to happen and i wasn't expecting nothing to happen. there were no expectations either way, i was just ready for whatever would happen. this was a quest for truth, not a quest for faith.



and are now petitioning support from the atheists on this board to argue in your defense. Is this the truth of the matter or not?


preconceived bias is apparent. i just wanted to balance out the thread since there were people posting things that were outright preaching and off topic...
also, i get a bit bored being the one atheist in a thread, it's kind of tiring to not have a comrade in arms by your side. i really just wanted the atheists here for moral support more than anything else.



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 12:22 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


OK. Well at least you know that there are people on here who are there for others, no matter what the circumstances.
jon.



posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 12:23 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 



Geez. People tell you the truthful answers and you discount them on every "broken record" excuse you have been using since you signed up on these boards. What answer could anyone give you that you would believe?

I think probably none.

The argument that you did believe you would receive something is probably like a student thinking because he shows up to chemistry class he should have walked away with some new information. If you don't forget what you think you know, you will never be able to accept new information.

So tell us the type answers you were looking for. If you can, you probably know what you want to hear anyway.



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