You can't take Christ out of Christmas

Originally posted by forestlady
It's not about being PC, it's about standing up for one's constitutional rights which gives us freedom from discrimination. The Christians do not own Christmas; December is a time of celebration for many religions.

Ever stop to consider that maybe non-Christians are offended by Christian symbols being displayed constantly, while theirs are not? I love how alot of Christians say they respect other religions, but don't want other religious symbols displayed - hypocrisy at its finest.

Actually, I'm pretty sure Christians kind of DO own Christmas. Just like Jews own Hanukkah. Why doesn't anyone try to do things to other religions? Take out religious meanings of their songs? Other people just use Christmas as a time to give out gifts, but it's rally to celebrate the birth of Christ.

Oh and if those people are offended, why are they here? They can leave if they want. And it's not like we're downgrading them for their religion, our country was just founded on Christianity.

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removed personal emails

[edit on 24/12/07 by masqua]

Aside from dominusluciferi's illuminating ( ) post, I'd just like to order and add a few things:

* Jesus was not born on the 25th of December
* Jesus never asked anybody to celebrate his birth, nor is it's celebration endorsed in any way in any Biblical text, and there is possibly disapproval of such things, considering the date that has been chosen.
* I (personally) believe that complaints about mixing of Christmas decorations with pagan symbols is a little silly, because Christmas is already chock full of pagan symbolism.
* Despite all of this, there is nothing (or should be nothing) stopping Christians from celebrating Christmas, except their own beliefs.
* Christmas day is also very near the Winter Solstice, which whether a small holiday, or big holiday, I think is irrelevant (should we not allow display of celebration on Easter for Christians because it is a minor holiday, or leave out Christmas because technically Easter Sunday/Good Friday would be more important with regards to Christianity)?
* The nativity scene that is constantly being referred to was not a scene celebrating the coming Christmas. It was part of an interfaith display, celebrating many religions.
* While I agree that as far as decorations for (Christian) Christmas go, there should not be mixing of displays (Mary should not be having a pagan pentacle around her neck, or baby Jesus should not be wrapped in a cloth with arabic inscriptions), I'm not sure about having decorations for different beliefs simultaneously. I mean, how far should two separate decorations be so that mixing does not occur? 5 feet? 10 feet? Any distance is arbitrary, and most places that would have such decorations would have limited space, so the decorations might be close to each other.

Just a collecting and clarifying of what I've seen so far on this thread.

[edit on 24-12-2007 by babloyi]

Originally posted by babloyi
I mean, how far should two separate decorations be so that mixing does not occur? 5 feet? 10 feet? Any distance is arbitrary, and most places that would have such decorations would have limited space, so the decorations might be close to each other.

That's actually the crux of the matter that most people here don't want to address. Yes, I think it's fine to display a festive Hindu swastica in the Hannukah season but not too close to a menorah. Likewise, as you said, I don't want the pentacle in my direct field of vision when I look at the Nativity display from 15 feet away. That is indeed common sense that you demonstrated.

Originally posted by xxxALIVE
Actually, I'm pretty sure Christians kind of DO own Christmas. Just like Jews own Hanukkah. Why doesn't anyone try to do things to other religions? Take out religious meanings of their songs? Other people just use Christmas as a time to give out gifts, but it's rally to celebrate the birth of Christ.

Oh and if those people are offended, why are they here? They can leave if they want. And it's not like we're downgrading them for their religion, our country was just founded on Christianity.

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removed personal emails
[edit on 24/12/07 by masqua]

Congratulations, you have missed the entire point of my post. What I'm saying is that Christmas TIME is not exclusive to CHristtians; many other religions celebrate their holidays at this time as well. Why should only Christians get to display their symbols?
If you don't like religilous plurality, maybe you should be the one to leave America. America was, after all, founded on separation of church and state in religious plurality. And yes, non-Christians are downgraded all the time by Christians. Not all, just some, but when you're in a religious minority that is constantly assaulted by mainstream and fundamentalist Christianity, it gets pretty old and you just want to be treated equally. That's all I'm asking for, is religious equality. If you can't understand that, then I refer you to Jesus' teachings about tolerance.

reply to post by buddhasystem


I think my point flew right over your head. He said that people with no beliefs lack family traditions. I said that you don't have to subscribe to a deity to have the things I listed.

Thanks.

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by forestlady
The Christians do not own Christmas

Oh, that's exactly the kind of attitude that the excellent CNN article is talking about. Just read what you wrote -- the Crhistians, to you, do not have the rights to properly celebrate Christ? What next? They should make the Sunday mass into festivals of interfaith dialogue?

Ever stop to consider that maybe non-Christians are offended by Christian symbols being displayed constantly

Ah, that's the reason for vitriol. And you presume to tutor us on tolerance.

I love how alot of Christians say they respect other religions, but don't want other religious symbols displayed - hypocrisy at its finest.

Sheesh, I've seen more menorahs during all the holidays I spent over the years in NYC than I saw crosses. The buddhist temple in my old neighborhood is always decorated for holidays, and there is a huge statue brought from Hiroshima.
[edit on 21-12-2007 by buddhasystem]

Buddhasystem, you have repeatedly twisted my words to suit your own agenda. Stop it. Or are you so twisted that you cannot read and understand my actual words?
Where did I say Christians shouldn't celebrate Christmas??? NOWHERE.

Secondly, where do you see any vitriol displayed? NOWHERE. I don't even feel anything like that.
After all the posts you've read of mine and the personal attacks, I would think you woujld at least have SOME idea that I'm trying to practice tolerance with other religions. I have many statements in that regard on the other thread where you spouted personal attacks and twisted my words into things I don't believe.

www.abovetopsecret.com...'

Quit trying to muddy the waters and get people riled up over things I NEVER said or even meant. We all have a right to celebrate whatever religious holidays we want to in December, it is a time for many faiths to celebrate their own holidays. Christmas time is not just for Christians, it's also Solstice, Hannukah, Moslem pilgrimage time and Kwanza. But some people only want Christian symbols displayed. I don't think that's fair and that's my only point.

Congratulations, you have missed the entire point of my post. What I'm saying is that Christmas TIME is not exclusive to CHristtians; many other religions celebrate their holidays at this time as well. Why should only Christians get to display their symbols?
If you don't like religilous plurality, maybe you should be the one to leave America. America was, after all, founded on separation of church and state in religious plurality. And yes, non-Christians are downgraded all the time by Christians. Not all, just some, but when you're in a religious minority that is constantly assaulted by mainstream and fundamentalist Christianity, it gets pretty old and you just want to be treated equally. That's all I'm asking for, is religious equality. If you can't understand that, then I refer you to Jesus' teachings about tolerance.

Ok, when I quoted you I wasn't just saying things toward you. So sorry about that.
Anywho I'm only 16, and I'm trying here. I don't look down upon people for their religions. I used to be a Wiccan. I'm also saying that I'm pretty sure Christmas was around before America was founded.
I don't even think that when the government write's "God" on monumets and such that they are referring to the Jehova God. Could be any God ya know?
So I'm not trying to attack anyone here, I'm just writing out my beliefs.
I just don't want Christmas changed to X-mas....it just sounds stupid

Originally posted by xxxALIVE
Actually, I'm pretty sure Christians kind of DO own Christmas. Just like Jews own Hanukkah. Why doesn't anyone try to do things to other religions? Take out religious meanings of their songs? Other people just use Christmas as a time to give out gifts, but it's rally to celebrate the birth of Christ.

Oh and if those people are offended, why are they here? They can leave if they want. And it's not like we're downgrading them for their religion, our country was just founded on Christianity.

Amen to that response - only, being a Christian I don't necessarily feel that we "own" Christmas. That just doesn't seem right - but at the same time, if you don't believe in Christ, why celebrate it? I don't celebrate Hannukah, or Winter Solstice, or Kwanza.

Here's a novel idea... how about taking Santa OUT of Christmas, putting Christ back IN, and celebrating it for what it truly is?

Have you SEEN all the news coverage about people putting themselves into further debt this year (just like EVERY year) all because they'll be judged on the types of gifts they give? It's sad... so sad.

Wow... reminds me of an episode of South Park few days ago.. buncha town idiots where even mistletoe offends them.

Originally posted by a-stupid-dvd-case
Wow... reminds me of an episode of South Park few days ago.. buncha town idiots where even mistletoe offends them.

Hah I only saw the one where the Anti-Christ Porcupine was born...or is that the same episode?

I only saw it from the middle, not the beginning

Hello all. I live about 30 miles from the town which I believe this happened in Olean, NY. This being said, I think I can give you guys some perspective.

First, the Nativity and the Wiccan symbol were both taken down and moved.

This happened after some idiot ran over a smaller nativity scene with his truck, and nailed the wiccan symbol doing 30mph.

After they were taken down, the Nativity was moved to the Church that was right beside where it orginally was.

This being said, the reason why there was such an issue with the nativity to begin with was because they wanted to use CITY OWNED land, aka STATE owned, in order to have a place for it. The Jewish community objected because they were not allowed to use the land the previous year to celebrate hannaku, and the wicans as well as the Satanist objected because both were denied use of a park in the town "Gargoyle Park" for religious ceremonies.

They felt that the Government of the Town was encouraging one religion, while not allowing equal access for others. This is why the Town relented and allowed the Wiccan symbol to be placed beside the nativity.

The whole issue of the nativity being removed, was because it amazingly was the thing that seperated the community, instead of bringing it together during this time of year, especially since there is a large Catholic community (80% of the town) and a large muslim community (5% of town).

It basically came down to wheather state land should be used for religious ceremony (aka: celebrating christmas). If you felt that it should, then the state or town can't discriminate against other religions wishing to do this(aka the Wiccans, Satanists, Jews, and Muslims). This is why it was taken down, and this is why I doubt very seriously, it will ever be allowed to be put back up. Especially considering that Satanists do celebrate good friday. Would you want to see that ceremony? I wouldn't, and as such, whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

Cheers,

Camain

reply to post by buddhasystem

My reply is to post a email that has been going around in Christian circles that for some strange reason one of my Christian co-workers sent to me. And I think Christians need to seriously think about what it says.

Dear Children,

It has come to my attention that many of you are upset that folks are taking My name out of the season. Maybe you've forgotten that I wasn't actually born during this time of the year and that it was some of your predecessors who decided to celebrate My birthday on what was actually a time of pagan festival. Although I do appreciate being remembered anytime.

How I personally feel about this celebration can probably be most easily understood by those of you who have been blessed with children of your own. I don't care what you call the day. If you want to celebrate My birth, just GET ALONG AND LOVE ONE ANOTHER.

Now, having said that let Me go on. If it bothers you that the town in which you live doesn't allow a scene depicting My birth, then just get rid of a couple of Santas and snowmen and put in a small Nativity scene on your own front lawn. If all My followers did that there wouldn't be any need for such a scene on the town square because there would be many of them all around town.

Stop worrying about the fact that people are calling the tree a holiday tree, instead of a Christmas tree. It was I who made all trees. You can remember Me anytime you see any tree. Decorate a grape vine if you wish: I actually spoke of that one in a teaching, explaining who I am in relation to you and what each of our tasks were. If you have forgotten that one, look up John 15: 1 - 8.

If you want to give Me a present in remembrance of My birth here is my wish list. Choose something from it:

1. Instead of writing protest letters objecting to the way My birthday is being celebrated, write letters of love and hope to soldiers away from home. They are terribly afraid and lonely this time of year. I know, they tell Me all the time.

2. Visit someone in a nursing home. You don't have to know them personally. They just need to know that someone cares about them.

3. Instead of writing George complaining about the wording on the cards his staff sent out this year, why don't you write and tell him that you'll be praying for him and his family this year. Then follow up. It will be nice hearing from you again.

4. Instead of giving your children a lot of gifts you can't afford and they don't need, spend time with them. Tell them the story of My birth, and why I came to live with you down here. Hold them in your arms and remind them that I love them.

5. Pick someone that has hurt you in the past and forgive him or her.

6. Did you know that someone in your town will attempt to take their own life this season because they feel so alone and hopeless? Since you don't know who that person is, try giving everyone you meet a warm smile; it could make the difference.

7. Instead of nit picking about what the retailer in your town calls the holiday, be patient with the people who work there. Give them a warm smile and a kind word. Even if they aren't allowed to wish you a "Merry Christmas" that doesn't keep you from wishing them one. Then stop shopping there on Sunday. If the store didn't make so much money on that day they'd close and let their employees spend the day at home with their families

8. If you really want to make a difference, support a missionary-- especially one who takes My love and Good News to those who have never heard My name.

9. Here's a good one. There are individuals and whole families in your town who not only will have no "Christmas" tree, but neither will they have any presents to give or receive. If you don't know them, buy some food and a few gifts and give them to the Salvation Army or some other charity which believes in Me and they will make the delivery for you.

10. Finally, if you want to make a statement about your belief in and loyalty to Me, then behave like a Christian. Don't do things in secret that you wouldn't do in My presence. Let people know by your actions that you are one of mine.

Don't forget; I am God and can take care of Myself. Just love Me and do what I have told you to do. I'll take care of all the rest. Check out the list above and get to work; time is short. I'll help you, but the ball is now in your court.

And do have a most blessed Christmas with all those whom you love and remember : I LOVE YOU, JESUS

I celebrate Christmas in the Name of Jesus Yeshua and nobody else. Its horrible how some people practice it in the name of Horus lol.

Originally posted by WraothAscendant
Now, having said that let Me go on. If it bothers you that the town in which you live doesn't allow a scene depicting My birth, then just get rid of a couple of Santas and snowmen...

Apparently some people are taking this false jesus as legit because here in Colorado there has been a number of Santa/Snowmen thefts and vanalisms...repeat offenders.

Hopefully when they find these people that destroy private property, they'll crucify them.
From a Yule Tree.

Happy Saturnalia.

reply to post by Legalizer


Huh?
What does that have to do with the gist of the message? Allow me to state it just in case.
Get over the Christmas BS, it wasn't created by Christians it is a repackaged older tradition. If you want to be a good Christian stop bitching about other people and live by the rules he suposedly set.
And I would like to add, its not a war on your religion to try to force you to show a little tollerance, as opposed to "my religion should get special treatment because the founding fathers are supposed to be Christian". How often people these days forget the meaning of the word FREEDOM.

Originally posted by buddhasystem
... but not too close to a menorah ... I don't want the pentacle in my direct field of vision when I look at the Nativity display from 15 feet away

May I ask why?

Originally posted by WraothAscendant
reply to post by Legalizer

 

Huh?

What does that have to do with the gist of the message? Allow me to state it just in case.
Get over the Christmas BS, it wasn't created by Christians it is a repackaged older tradition. If you want to be a good Christian stop bitching about other people and live by the rules he suposedly set.
And I would like to add, its not a war on your religion to try to force you to show a little tollerance, as opposed to "my religion should get special treatment because the founding fathers are supposed to be Christian". How often people these days forget the meaning of the word FREEDOM.

You're the only one I see bitching

reply to post by camain


HI Camain: The incident referred to happened in Green Bay, Wisconsin. You can find that thread here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...'

That thread was started and then BuddhaSystem started this thread as a result, I believe.
However, it's the same principle; the Wiccan Wreath was vandalized but the Nativity scene wasn't, so the City Council left the Nativity scene up, but the Wiccan wreath was not allowed to be displayed, not even on Solstice.

Originally posted by babloyi

Originally posted by buddhasystem
... but not too close to a menorah ... I don't want the pentacle in my direct field of vision when I look at the Nativity display from 15 feet away

May I ask why?

Sure! Because it detracts from my Christmas experience, which I sort of like. I don't like pickles in my peach-flavored yogurt, strawberry jam on my burger and pentacles interfering with the Nativity display.

I have to wonder why Christians insist on celebrating the birthday of their "god" on the millenia old Pagan day for celebrating the Winter Solstice - the rebirth of the Sun.

With the proliferation of info these days it would seem that they would have become a bit embarrased over the matter, and moved their "birthday" to a more appropriate time according the writings in their Bible.