You can't take Christ out of Christmas

I think a few things need to be clarified here. Since someone had to bring up the constitution, lets see what it actually says.

It states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an ESTABLISHMENT of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". It says nothing at all about whether or not the state can ENDORSE a particular religion. So actually, the state can endorse whatever religion it wants to. It just can't force anybody to convert. I know its not very PC of me to point that out but its true. Trying to make the constitution say more than it actually does will not help anybody's cause. It just stirs up more strife and negativity.

But that still does not change the fact that there never was and never will be any establishment of religion in this country. Which means that people of any religion...christian, pagan, or otherwise...do have the right to display their religious symbology on public property if they wish to do so.

As far as christmas goes, it is true that pagan religions had their own celebrations around this time of year long before there was any such thing as christianity. So they do have just as much of a right to celebrate and share their beliefs as christians do.

And what does it really matter anyway? As a christian, I celebrate christmas. But if someone were to come up to me and say happy hannuka or happy winter solstice, I would not get all offended or anything stupid like that. I would simply smile and wish them the same. How hard is that?

We can all fight and compete for attention and public display space or we can offer peace and blessings to each other. Its a choice we can all make. What will you all choose?

[edit on 12/21/2007 by Lightmare]

I believe in a "Christ" and it could be said I celebrate "Christmas", however people were celebrating the season before there was every a Christ or Christmas known to mankind.

Season's Greetings is a well wishing, and happy holidays is wishing anyone whom you say it too a happy time on what ever aspects of the season they themselves celebrate.

The one known as Jesus Christ was not born on Christmas. Christmas is a holiday that the church made up to try to get "nonchristian" people who celebrated the seasonal winter solstis to join up with the christian church. The church would offer "gifts" in their holiday celebration if you just attended and celebrate "Christmas" that's really "CHRIST MASS".

Personally I wish people "happy holidays" every where I go around this season. Sometimes someone will snap back "MERRY CHRISTMAS" but I laugh to myself for I know they are stressed and missing the true meaning of the season.

Happy Holidays is a blessing to those that don't even celebrate the holiday season.

SO! Happy Holidays u-all what ever that celebration is to you.

Originally posted by Nutrients
December 25th, although now referred to almost exclusively as "Christmas", is hardly exclusive to the celebrations of Christians. If decorations are being put up on public grounds, it should well be open to
anyone who has a holiday to celebrate.

So anyone whose aunt/uncle/granddaddy/sibling/ansestor was born on Dec 25th should be able to bring flags, ashes and custom decorations for the deseased to the City Hall??

Again: the Christmas was celbrated in a traditional way for roughly 200 years in this country. The so-called pagans derived their new-age inspirations from Gerald Gardner, "a retired British civil servant", in 1954
en.wikipedia.org...

I've spoken to Muslims I met in North Africa and my impression is that they would not try to intervene with the Chrisitan celebrations of any sort. It is specious that the North American pagans skip their major observances but spring to life when it comes to a minor pagan date, when it coincides with the Holy Christmas.

Originally posted by W3RLIED2





Go drink some egg nog, open some presents and calm the down before you give yourself a stroke.

P.S. I do reject god, not just yours but all of them. And thats my choice. Its america dude, its pretty great to not be force fed religion any more.

Nobody is trying to piss you off.

That is EXACTLY what you are trying to do

Jesus has been replaced by santa, the resurrection replaced with a bunny rabbit.

christianity is probably the single most brainwashing cultist religion too bad. I'm not the one getting up set.

And THAT proves it and,,,

PS I just reported you

and That is why.

I rest my case.

- Con
PS You UPSET ME!! LOL don't flatter yourself Atheist,, you don't have the capacity to get me "upset" no more then you could see me crying and whining through the computer. That is just your wishful thinking that your mocking Christ,, you know the one the holiday is celebrating would work.

Originally posted by Lightmare
But that still does not change the fact that there never was and never will be any establishment of religion in this country. Which means that people of any religion...christian, pagan, or otherwise...do have the right to display there religious symbology on public property if they wish to do so.

As I said, theoretically I should be able to post pornography around the town and schools according to our Constitution. In practice, I won't do this because

a) it's stupid
b) I'm liable to answer to public decency and child protection laws

So I am sorry, but that's not a good vehicle to pass a judgement on the intrusion of other faiths on a traditional Christmas holiday.

As far as christmas goes, it is true that pagan religions had their own celebrations around this time of year long before there was any such thing as christianity.

Look, the native americans had their own rites that overlap with the aritificial new-age "religion" of modern paganism.


[edit on 21-12-2007 by buddhasystem]

Originally posted by Incarnated
The one known as Jesus Christ was not born on Christmas.

Do you like seriously believe it's anywhere remotely important?? Like, you are kidding, right?

It's an established Chritstian Holiday. Most people dont' want it to be eaten alive by special interest groups just because they can.

Die Religion ist das Opium für das Volk. Die Religion ist eine Art geistigen Fusels, in dem die Sklaven des Kapitals ihr Menschenantlitz, ihren Anspruch auf ein auch nur halbwegs menschenwürdiges Dasein ersäufen.
Vladimir Iljitsch Lenin: 'Sozialismus und Religion'

Das religiöse Elend ist in einem der Ausdruck des wirklichen Elendes und in einem die Protestation gegen das wirkliche Elend. Die Religion ist der Seufzer der bedrängten Kreatur, das Gemüt einer herzlosen Welt, wie sie der Geist geistloser Zustände ist. Sie ist das Opium des Volks.
K. Marx: 'Zur Kritik der Hegelschen Rechtsphilosophie' (Einleitung)

reply to post by buddhasystem


BS, if you knew as much as you purport, you wouldn't be posting that Pagans only came along when GErald Gardner did, 50, 60 years ago. You're thinking of Wiccans. What we're trying to tell you is that Paganism was around since, well, probably the beginning of homo sapiens. If you don't know the difference between Neopagans and ancient Pagans, then you have some serious studying to do.
You're a troll, using trolling methods - nothing more.

Originally posted by forestlady

Ever stop to consider that maybe non-Christians are offended by Christian symbols being displayed constantly, while theirs are not? I love how a lot of Christians say they respect other religions, but don't want other religious symbols displayed - hypocrisy at its finest.

Have you tried displaying your "symbols"? Where did you try? Who stopped you from displaying them? What are they? What are the names of the people who stopped you? What reason did they give for stopping you?

Back on topic -

Christians are not opposed to others putting up their own displays. That's a lie put out by people who hate Christians who for some reason see a need to lie to make their point. Put up any display you wish as long as it is does not involve hate speech or pornography and nobody will care other than extremists who's opinions nobody cares about anyway.

Christians are the new Black Race in that we are now persecuted the same way Blacks were. Churches blown up. Nativities vandalized. Freaks disrupting meetings in private buildings on private property.

Lets take a look at a Nativity scene. A loving Mother and Father adoring their newborn child while surrounded by others doing the same. That's it. That's all a Nativity scene is. It can't bite you. It can't attack you. It's not obscene or pornographic. It does not display hate. So, why does it cause all these lies and hate? The answer is it does not and can not hurt anyone. The real truth is the people who are militant about stopping it are a new version of the KKK who thrive on hatred. If they did not have Christians to hate they would pick out some other group to hate. Haters hate.

It is just a day. A simple day like every other.

Just another day.

Want to celebrate the birth of Jesus? Hold in within the August / September time frame, if you are so inclined. Want to celebrate good will to your fellow man only once a year? Go ahead and do that, too.

Christmas wasn't about Christ, as mentioned earlier. It never was. Call it Candle Mass, if you prefer, it doesn't matter...

It's just another day.

Why can't people be nice all year round? Isn't that what Christmas is supposed to be about? Spreading good cheer and joy and compassion?

Someone is offended because Santa can't say 'ho ho ho" anymore (thanks, Australia!)? It bothers others because schools can't perform Christmas plays (but are allowed to hold Holiday Activites)? It bothers others because the Catholics bastardized a pagan (*shudder*) holiday to use as their own, and now other people still are getting offended because they don't want to associate Christ with the festival?

Fine.

Pagans and wiccans and other older beliefs aren't allowed to celebrate their holidays without ridicule from the religious out there, so why should you?

*ahem*

Christmas should be expressed as an idea instead of a practice. Doe giving your children gifts of the material make you feel like a better Christian when children down the street are doing without adequate meals? Then fine, go ahead and proclaim your message of Christ in Christmas.

I would think that, as a day of giving and forgiveness, that there would be a bit more charity.

AND!

(I know, alot of random ramblings... sorry for now)

AND! Turn the other cheek. Forgive thy neighbor. Treat others as you would want to be treated.

Christmas, after all, is just another day. Love your family and be kind to them every day. Respect your neighbors every day. If someone is offened by the way you practice something, then just smile at them, and know in your heart, that you are doing what is right for you. Let them rant and complain and try to get things changed... you just keep on celebrating the day the way it was meant / supposed to be celebrated.

In the vastness of human understanding, with everything that is happening right now, and will happen 1-10-20 years from now... does it really matter?

It's just another day. Do on that day as you would all year round, or better yet, do all year round as you would do on that one day.

Just

another

day

I wouldn't go as far as to say that Buddha System is a troll. He is just expressing his viewpoint. Thats all.

Please understand that I respect the validity of all religions. And I respect their right to express their beliefs in a very public way.

But it does seem like some, not all, but some of the attempts to make the holidays more and more PC are being done NOT out of a desire for unity and harmony, but out of spite for christianity. I really hate having to point that out but it is true to a certain degree.

The best thing to do is let the christians and the pagans and any other religions celebrate their respective holidays without having to water them down with some type of interfaith mentality. If they all feel the need to put up public displays for all to see, then thats fine too. But they should also probably have a certain amount of distance between such displays in order to preserve their respective authenticity.

Some people are very much into the whole interfaith movement...and thats all well and good. But there are others who wish to preserve the authenticity of their faith and traditions without having to water them down for political correctness....and thats all well and good too. It really depends on the depth and form of one's spiritual convictions.

Maybe someday we will all learn to share the earth that we have been given. I hope.

[edit on 12/21/2007 by Lightmare]

Originally posted by Lightmare
...or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"...

That is the key phrase that defines what they meant. It is so simple a small child could figure it out. Its easy really. As long as someone does not break a law they should practice their beliefs as they wish. I think the only exception should be where things like having sex with children, committing violent acts, forcing participation and harassing others are in play. Since there are groups who commit these atrocities there has to be line where it is no longer religion but instead a criminal organization.

[edit on 12/21/2007 by Blaine91555]

I would like to give an applause to Lightmare, for whatever it is worth.

Very well spoken.

reply to post by Lightmare


Well said


I think most people think that way. Its just that the radicals have such big mouths it drowns out the fact that most of us get along just fine.

[edit on 12/21/2007 by Blaine91555]

Sorry to burst everybody bubble here but forestlady is not the enemy against Christianity, the nativity and either the baby Jesus.

You worst enemy is the big fat man with the red nice suit that has taking your baby Jesus birthday for a shopping bargain holiday.

Fighting each other and for holiday traditions and nothing more than idolatry and who is wright and who is wrong it only makes everybody look intolerant and extremist. With the exemption of people that have no problem and celebrate the holidays no matter what.

I see nobody giving the fault to that silly big fat man that on Christmas day American children care more about, that baby Jesus.

Next thing we are to have a thread about Jesus been Black or white (I forgot we already have one of those.)

Really for such a precious season for the Christians this type of threads are just beaming no with joy but intolerance.

Deny ignorance people and Merry Christmas.

Originally posted by ArtemisFowl
reply to post by forestlady

 

well i apologize as i see i have twisted your words but my point is is that if it was desecrated i would put up another wreath and if they desecrated it i would booby trap a third one mainly with fireworks but my anger is not from you its from the fact that every year there is an arguement like this commonly over religious intolerance

Artemis Fowl, I sincerely appreciate and accept your aplogy. We did try to put up another wreath, but the City Council told us not to, not even for our Winter Solstice celebration, today and tomorrow. The only thing allowed was the Nativity Scene. This is why a lawsuit was filed. I hope it's starting to make more sense now...

Originally posted by marg6043
Next thing we are to have a thread about Jesus been Black or white (I forgot we already have one of those.)

True, but at least the Colonel isn't here... hopefully, it'll keep those threads at a nice calm.

Now, Robo Jesus, that's an entirely different subject

Why is there a Federally sanctioned holiday for one specific religion?

That's my question.

Fact is most festivals originated because of crops and fertility.

Our government gave Christians a holiday - which was wrong IMO. It needs to be changed to Winter Celebration or something like that.

True... but some people might point out the tradition of Halloween, no matter how corrupted that became.

We also got the fertility festival now known as Easter...

erm...

reply to post by Annee


Christmas is not "federally sanctioned". It predates not only the Bush administration but also the USA as a nation. And it has apparently been celebrated by people of many nations including those from which the founding fathers of this nation came from.

Nobody is forcing you to celebrate christmas if you don't want to. You are free to make your own decisions. If you don't like it, then don't celebrate it. Its that simple.

[edit on 12/21/2007 by Lightmare]