Originally posted by Conspiriology
whether they denied one pagan or all three of them, it sounds like your problem is with the city council and not any Christians per se. For someone who would use separation of church and state as an argument to keep Christian symbols off Public sites it's interesting that same rationale didn't stop the pagans from placing their own there. I'm sorry they had gotten vandalized.

No matter how you wish to twist the logic, it is simply unfair

There really is no logic to twist and as I said in my post, LIFE IS UNFAIR

- Con

If you check out the thread I posted earlier, you would know alot more about it and probably wouldn't be saying the things you do. The City Council members who voted whether to retain the wreath or not were Christians and it was their views as Christians that they didn't want the wreath there. Before that, the Mayor and City Council had voted to invite other religious groups, after they realized that it was a violation of church and state on govt. property, by only having a Nativity scene. NOt wanting to be sued, they invited other groups, but reluctantly.

My point is that on govt property, no one relilgion should be endorsed; not Paganism, not Christianity, not Judaism, etc. Either there should be no displays or all religions should be welcome to place their symbols on govt property.

Originally posted by forestlady
The City Council members who voted whether to retain the wreath or not were Christians and it was their views as Christians that they didn't want the wreath there. Before that, the Mayor and City Council had voted to invite other religious groups, after they realized that it was a violation of church and state on govt. property, by only having a Nativity scene. Not wanting to be sued, they invited other groups, but reluctantly.

My point is that on govt property, no one religion should be endorsed; not Paganism, not Christianity, not Judaism, etc. Either there should be no displays or all religions should be welcome to place their symbols on govt property.

I think it's a stretch to call it an "endorsement" of religion but rather a display to observe the Christmas Holiday. It's interesting to read some of these posts forest lady where we are told the ornate symbols Christians use for the Christmas holiday are the same symbols that we are to disown as pagan in origin thus by there own testimony, invalidates Christmas for a myriad of reasons. Then if I were to use those very same arguments to justify why they are not symbolic of Christianity but could expect an argument from the very same antagonists of its legitimacy demanding that they are in fact Christian symbolism when it suits them.

It has been said in several posts that Christianity doesn't "own" Christmas and that many other people celebrate it Santa and all which would suggest that it is merely a secular holiday of Christian invention which again has been invalidated as pagan invention. I see how those having posted these issues are using them when it suits there cause to invalidate but will use them to substantiate there Christian meaning if for instance the city council were to say it was observing a holiday and not a religion.

So which is it? We don't own Christmas, ok then if that is so then the pagans don't own any holiday, day, tree, either. If we oblige all those who have said in these posts that Christians have usurped the winter solstice, others saying Christmas about shopping etc. Then it stands to reason that those traditional Christmas symbols are just that,, Christmas Holiday symbols representing the very Holiday we agreed that we DON'T OWN. I think it's disingenuous of someone to insist it is a religious holiday the "Christians own when it servers there law suit pagans vs the City Council.

Then insist it is NOTHING less then a pagan holiday insisting that Christians DON'T own it when WE would like to celebrate it as a Religious remembrance of Christs Birth.

If it is to be a Christian religious Holiday then I think it is disrespectful of some other religion to add there own theist symbols and THAT may be the reason for some antagonism mixing pagan and Christmas displays.

It is simply in bad taste and it isn't necessary. They probably saw being analogous to someone seeing Halloween decorations at the Municipal court (another pagan day?) and decided to add Easter eggs to the Halloween theme using Halloweens Pagan religions origin and Easters Christian religious significance of the third day after Christs death.

That isn't the best illustration but you get the point.

I don't see this as an argument about fairness or separation of church and state, I see this as one religion wanting to spoil the others special day because they just cant stand Christianity's Christmas and just have to put there own displays up behind the guise of fairness using separation of church and state ONLY when it suits them but NOT because they necessarily agree with it. Another words it separation of church and state is great when pagans don't get there way, and they hav e to use that so that others won't get ther way either. THAT'S when they say Christmas is all christian and all religious. Otherwise they say its a sham a shopping day blah blah etc etc.

Then with the threat of law suit predicated on church and state, they get what they want and do JUST the opposite when the honest thing to do would have been to go on with the law suit removing ALL the festive displays period. It's not an important statute when it comes to putting Pagan wreaths along side Christian nativity scenes but if they can't,, THEN IT MAKES AN EXCELLENT TOOL TO REMOVE SOMEONE ELSE'S.

That's just why this looks more to me like sour grapes.

Having said that, I would concur that if it came to a debate on resolving this then by all means, Christians would not mind at all making Christmas in sept or oct acknowledging the solstice history allowing them to have Dec 23 - 25.

I think if it means that much to pagans then we should let them have it. Then we could expect that OUR Christmas not be the subject of controversy, an excuse to ridicule Christians for everything wrong in the world etc.

I bet if that came to fruition, Christians would STILL not assume to Own it or dictate who is eligible to celebrate it but they would be accused of such intentions I'm afraid because of a deep seeded and denied hatred of those Darn Insufferable Christians by a small minority of people with a chip on there shoulder for suffering the excruciating painful humiliation of having a Christian Nativity scene "Rubbed" in there face.

What better way to get back at them then by Polluting there "scene" with a pagan one of there own. Had all the doublespeak not been used in such arbitrary ways I wouldn't see this having such vendetta but that is how I see it.

If it happens again forestlady,, I'd sue em and get them all removed. Then we can ask who the partypoopers are that just HAD to RAIN on the Christians special day. Forestlady,, how many pagans are there in this country? I ask because if there are that many and if this is that important,, I think we should make some changes and let the pagans have ther days.



- Con






[edit on 27-12-2007 by Conspiriology]

I have lived in several cities with large non-Christian populations, and I have yet to see or hear of one person who actually complains about Christmas.

Why?

Because these people are not stupid enough to assume that if they come to a Christian country, the native population should suddenly have their religious activities stifled by their presence.

Would you go to a Muslim country and complain about Ramadan? Of course not. Why not? Because you respect their right to their religion...right?

I'm sick of the white upper-middle classes and their racial guilt.

[edit on 28-12-2007 by C.C.Benjamin]

Originally posted by jedimiller

Originally posted by UScitizen
Even if I were a Christian and people who weren’t were celebrating Christmas and it made them happy to be around their loved ones, so what.

but how can you not believe in god then? all of that love and gathering with your family has to do with god. you being happy for getting together with them is proof of god.

why would it make you happy to see you loved ones if there was no god? because you see..love is god.

Love is not god to me because there is no god, maybe for you but not me, is this the way you try to force your beliefs on to people. I think you need to take those glasses off and give them back to one of your grandparents and see people for who they are and not what you believe the way they should be, you need to realize that not everyone believes what you believe.

how's this for a mind screw: jesus never existed in the first place, so what exactly are you celebrating anyways? Pentagrams and "xmas" trees predate Christianity as well.

I love these threads. I can never take them seriously, because then I start losing faith in people.

Conspiriology

some of the symbolism involved in the christmas holiday are "generic", the christmas tree, santa clause, ect...
but, then there are some that have a more religious meaning....
like the nativity scene...

I believe that the eruptions are occuring over the nativity scenes??
and who knows, maybe the christians themselves are causing the eruptions, just so they can claim the persecution card, don't know...

still say that the problem should be resolved at the community level though....I live in what seems to be a heavily christian area....if they have a nativity scene on public property that I don't know of, well, I'm sure that I would be in a very small minority if I opposed it...so well, if the thing makes most of the people in the community happy, why should I object, just because that part of christmas might happen to not of my belief system....making people happier should be in everyone's belief system...so, don't really see a problem.

but, one can believe in a God and not necessarily believe in the Christian God, and one can believe that there is no God and have those fruits that attributed to the holy spirit oozing out of them far more than many who claim to believe in the Christian God...and one can get into the christmas spirit, without the God!!
But every year this time of year, when we should all be in the spirit of giving, good will to men and all that jazz...why does this topic always come up, and well, bring out the worst in people? it isn't the christian way, it isn't the wiccan way, or any other way really.
How about next year, the communities take one of their parks, section off small tracts of it, and let the churches, the pagan groups, the synagogues and just the plain ordinary citizens come and decorate a peice of it anyway they like? would you still have a problem with a wiccan decorating the plot next to a christian nativity scene?
in my opinion, using public money to erect a christmas tree isn't going against the idea of separation of church and state, since it doesn't really convey much of a religious message, using public money to place nativity scene, with a baby jesus as the center point is!! if a large enough part of the community is having a problem doing this, it shouldn't be done, or something should be done to bring in the other groups and their beliefs.

as far as the poor wiccan wreath being vandalized, well, nativity scenes are vandalized every year, and well, many, many baby jesus' are swiped from them...(which, by the way, literally takes the Christ out of Christmas). just like pumpkins are smashed during holloween. it's more likely that there was no reasoning behind the vandalizing, except someone wanted to vandalize something and the wreath was the closest thing around.

Originally posted by scientist
how's this for a mind screw: jesus never existed in the first place, so what exactly are you celebrating anyways? Pentagrams and "xmas" trees predate Christianity as well.

I love these threads. I can never take them seriously, because then I start losing faith in people.

My first reaction is pity that anyone should be so desperate and go to such lengths to justify his disbelief in ANYTHING or ANYONE but alas this isn't just ANYONE is it,, NOOOOO he is far too important and too big a threat to people like this else they would be picking on someone else from that time and saying THEY don't exist.

Historical documents from Josephus & Tacitus are the most notable outside the bible as proof. The Bible itself was written by people who KNEW Jesus, as two of the Gospels were written by (Mathew and John) and two more by Mark as told to him by Peter and Luke the doctor and Historian Luke interviewed the disciples and other witnesse of Jesus. This is compiled historical data recorded the same way every other Historical document has been written. All of them were written within the life time of the disciples before the end of the 1st century A.D.

I would be embarrassed to post such a ludicrous supposition and what is disturbing about this is when someone doesn't have the faintest idea, not a clue WHY this should embarrass them. Of all the great historical figures from Julius Caesar, Socrates, Plato Sedartha NONE have had a bigger effect on the world then Jesus of Nazareth.

His ministry was only several years and there is ancient roman artifacts and texts that have documented the many martyr that had died over there Christian beliefs of all the conspiracies to ever have been alleged, the one that says all those Christians and Jews and Muslims who have recorded historical records of his life and all those who died for it were all put toghether by a Myth. In all my life I have never heard of a more desperate attempt to discredit Christianity and BILLIONS of followers not to mention Billions that have died over the past several thousand years. Of all the people that have lived, Jesus Christ had an impact that is so much like he said it would be that NOW he doesn't even exist as anything more then some lie conjured up fooling everyone.

It's been a long enough period that I guess now would be the time to say he never existed because like most historical people from that time, finding "proof" and I assume nothing less then DNA would suffice making this argument correct?

As transparent an attack on Christians as I have ever seen. It's the same with the Jews now too where we have people saying the holocaust was a hoax. We have a greater number of manuscripts that attest to Christ's existence and ministry then most other aspects of classical history. We have evidence of Christ's followers breaking more than a milennium of tradition to switch their day of worship from Saturday to Sunday. What amazes me is the sudden and obviously planned organized strategy I have seen lately to 1) Change Christmas, 2) Take the word God out of every Government Document and Currency. including the Pledge of Allegiance. Take Prayer out of School, with organized funding to take these strategems all the way to the supreme court where we will see them put Jesus Christs existence on trial.

Then the mockery of faith over "Science" These "conspiracy" theorists that allege that the church formed itself on a hoax in order to gain power then they act as if they have been oppressed by "Sanctimonious" Christians who think they are better then everyone else.

This is typical of the secular atheists agenda to remove religion from the face of the earth. Nothing like fulfiling biblical prophesy. Information that corroborates Jesus existence is NOT that hard to find if one simply gets rid of the anti christian bias and does a little homework.

Would Plato, Aristotle or Socrates whose teachings form the basis for Western thought, philosophy and psychology ever existed? Although the study of atiquities has never turned up a single original writing of either man those same scholars have catalogued over 5000 Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic writings of people who personally witnessed Christ's life many within 60 years of his death on calvery.

Jesus Christ, Mohammed, Buddha, Moses walked among us



[edit on 28-12-2007 by Conspiriology]

Sure you can take christ out of christmas, (maybe not the spirit that christ embodies of good will and peace ) just over commercialize it to all people and even those of the jewish faith who dont believe in christ celebrate christmas. Voila the wonders of capitalism ( and no im not socialist or communist ).

Materialism on the day you celebrate the "Birth" of Christ?
The same person who in the bible who condemned the love of material possesions.

Christ didn't even celebrate his own birthday (So much for Christ Like). And to make it worse, this holiday is celebrated with materialism in mind.

Most of you "christians" and other religious sheep should read this bible you worship so much. You'd find that none of you will be going to heaven (According to the bible).

Well if you want to get into technicalities then christmas is actually a pagan tradition to celebrate the end of the long nights and the beginning of the sun returning.

Originally posted by dawnstar

but, then there are some that have a more religious meaning....

Oh yeah I understand that but whether they are or not, the distinction made regarding Christs birth in a nativity scene about a generic holiday can't be helped. If it were more a part of Chritian religious doctrine, you'd see it all year long with people wearing it around there neck.

I believe that the eruptions are occuring over the nativity scenes??

Christians aren't causing anything, they ARE persecuted as you said in your own words regarding the nativity scene. How people can look at that and get offended isn't the voice of someone oppressed by religion or "stuck up" Christians. It is the embellished act of an anti religion fanatic.

making people happier should be in everyone's belief system...so, don't really see a problem.

Wow you nailed me there guy.

Christians nationwide face increasing discrimination and hostility, just as they do in many parts of the world.

I am a Christian more because of this then inspite of it, I see the posts and the ridicule but they are so angry at Christians and we are so busy trying to shore up aspects of our faith that are under constant malicious attacks, we can't meet halfway.

As much as Forestlady might think I am a jerk or whatever opinion she has formed, I would safely assume it isn't one I would endorse. Having said that I also are among those she, and many atheists could count on in getting a rogue element of Christianity under control if not removed from there position in the Church.

It is these arrogant fundamentalists on the religious right that we must do something about because frankly they are begining to sound like Constantine or worse. Between the calls for war with no end, the call to assassinate Hugo Chavez, support for a most immoral, and anti-Christian budget in history, it is no wonder there are so many Christians being made the target of jokes and hostility.

I just think the way they ( the secular atheist) are doing it will only exascerbate the situation. In addition to that WE Christians need to quit saying amen and praise the lord everytime Pastor Hagee calls us to push congress for a first strike on Iran.

Yeah it's true and yes, it is NUTS but not enough Christians will stand up to the Church with someone as influential as Haggee but I would.

So it isn't like I don't sympathize with some of the allegations made about Christianity but they are going about it alienating many Christians who if they gave them a chance to hear each other out without all this idiotic claims about how we should give this up or stop doing this because pagans did it during the Ice age etc. I mean that will only cause Christians to assume this as indicative of the end times where Chistians face such persecution then making guys like Haggee look like he knows what he is talking about.

I used to be a big fan of his but anymore ,, him and, well most of the fundamentalists are fundaMENTALCASES.

It has been said there are over 2,000 verses in the Bible speaking specifically about taking care of the poor. Christians are not doing what they should as individuals anymore, we all leave it up to the Churchs finace minister. To hear some politicians speak about Christ one could easily get confused. They have cherry picked two issues, abortion and gay marriage and turned them into the entire platform of family values and who gets the blame?

Christians in general thats who. We get called intolerant or accused of being judgemental when I know as sure as I'm sitting here sharing a seat with my arse that I am no shining example of "pure living" I don't have skeletons in my closet, I got a graveyard in my garage. (metaphorically speaking)

they too often politicize from the pulpit because they are willing to buy into the splitting of God’s people down ideological lines.

I turn on a Christian Broadcast and what do I see? More garbage about The "Christian agenda for Iraq" and what does it have to do with ? Sending Bush money and support for his idiotic faithbased bias. Not a thing about Jesus teachings is being said and it is incumbent on the individual Christian to correct this in our religious leaders whose heads are so big they fill the cathedral.

Well enough ranting

Good post btw

- Con

Originally posted by ChronMan
Materialism on the day you celebrate the "Birth" of Christ?
The same person who in the bible who condemned the love of material possesions.

Christ didn't even celebrate his own birthday (So much for Christ Like). And to make it worse, this holiday is celebrated with materialism in mind.

Most of you "christians" and other religious sheep should read this bible you worship so much. You'd find that none of you will be going to heaven (According to the bible).

See this is JUST what I mean. Hey guy if you are looking for a Christian who is not a hipocrite as one of the great aggregation of the many sins Christ will forgive, you won't find any anywhere so your lumping the commercial secular or everyone elses Christmas's materialism solely on Christians is a little over the top. You call it materialism they call it BUYING GIFTS FOR SOMEONE OTHER THEN THEMSELVES . Ill tell you something else too out of the general population, how many of the sit at home on sunday playing video games Americans went out and brought gifts, blankets, food and medical supplies for there communities homeless?

714 of our Church members did and since no one ever seems to post anything but the evils we are alleged, then I WILL just to set the record straight MOST Christians are not only nice people, but they actually try to be more then most people I know. That doesn't mean they are better, just that they make a conscious effort to try .

- Con

I didn't say I wasn't thankful, nor am I bitter. I don't mind what happens to the holiday. It means nothing to me.

I just want to point out inconsistencies within those religious zealots who celebrate it.

I find it funny because in the bible, Christ asks his disciples to commemorate his death, but never his birth. I'm sure if it were to be celebrated, Christ would've made mention of it.

Originally posted by ChronMan
Christ asks his disciples to commemorate his death, but never his birth. I'm sure if it were to be celebrated, Christ would've made mention of it.

I once had a dream, in which I heard a voice say. " Give up Christmas for the Muslims"

I was perplexed by the dream wondering what it meant, yet a year later, I somehow after reading the previous post came to a possible reason.

The recognition by Christianity of the excess and improper amplification of consumerism while honoring the birth of Christ would be form of self imposed discipline. It would wreak havoc on the consumer retailers that base their ecomony on Christmas, yet this would send a shockwave message through the heart of the World.

What? Christians not celebrating Christmas?

That being said, perhaps the Muslim community and others, would hear a different voice coming from Christianity indicating in fact that we walk to the beat of the drum of self restraint.

That the Christian message of peace and Love of all mankind, and the allowance of each man to find his path of truth in his own seaons is one of the core teachings of Christ.

Islam is too in need of correction. Brutality under God under Islamic law is not acceptable just as consumerism was not the teaching of Jesus Christ.

The silencing of Christmas in the name of consumerism, and the active undertaking of universal goodwill for all mankind would be a mammoth step for Christianity and perhaps would truly usher in

Peace on Earth Goodwill to men.



[edit on 29-12-2007 by HIFIGUY]