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Round 1. Argos v The Borg: There Goes The Neighborhood

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posted on Dec, 21 2007 @ 09:21 AM
The topic for this debate is "The Mexican Border issue is being allowed to happen to propel the US into a 3rd World Nation status".

Argos will be arguing the pro position and will open the debate.
The Borg will argue the con position.

Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.

Character limits are nolonger in effect- you may use as many characters as a single post allows. It still pays to be clear and concise though.

Editing is strictly forbidden. This means any editing, for any reason. Any edited posts will be completely deleted. This prevents cheating. If you make an honest mistake which needs fixing, you must U2U me. I will do a limited amount of editing for good cause. Please use spell check before you post.

Opening and closing statements must not contain any images, and must have no more than 3 references. Excluding both the opening and closing statements, only two images and no more than 5 references can be included for each post.

Responses should be made within 48 hours. Extensions and extended breaks for the holidays will be permitted.

This is a non-elimination tournament. 2 ranking points are awarded for participation and 2 more for each victory. Each member of the winning team recieves 2 additional points.

The Member-Judging System is in effect. The total number of stars awarded to each member by readers (counted at the time of judging) will be counted to determine a winner.

We have ways of determining when a member has multiple accounts. Any member who attempts to use multiple accounts to influence the outcome of a debate will be barred from the debate forum in perpetuity and will face additional consequences as well, possibly including a permanent ban from ATS.

posted on Dec, 21 2007 @ 11:08 AM
First of all i would like to thank all the mods taking part in this team debate series for making it possible, and thanks to The Vagabond for taking me under his wing. To The Borg the rematch is on I'm looking forward to an interesting debate, good luck.

To start then i will be arguing that: "The Mexican Border issue is being allowed to happen to propel the US into a 3rd World Nation status."

To do this i will show briefly that there are huge problems with regards to the Mexican/American border: That the current American border policies are not sufficient for stemming the flow of illegal immigrants from the southern border every year. American immigration control is lax and it is often fairly easy for illegal immigrants to settle down and live their life in the US.

After showing these points i will then reveal who this situation benefits and why this is actually being allowed to happen. In essence why the US is being allowed to turn into a third world nation of sorts = Why the US government and world elitists are happy with the current immigration problem. To do this i will talk about: (And not necessarily in this order)

1) Militarisation of the Mexican/American border.

2) Identity cards.

3) Immigration as a net benefit to the US economy.

4) Crime.

5) The steady decline of the American middle class due partly to immigration and what this could mean.

6) The North American Union.

7) The New World Order.

It is my contention that the issues and consequences of this situation benefits the elitists and in a multi faceted way they are gaining from the problems arising from the immigration issue. I will get more into this later as the debate goes on.

The first main point that i will only briefly go into in this debate is establishing that there is an immigration problem in the US.

In March of 2006 the Pew Hispanic Center estimated the undocumented population ranged from 11.5 to 12 million individuals, a number supported by the US Government Accountability Office

The United States Government Accountability Office estimates that “between 400,000 and 700,000 illegal immigrants have entered the United States each year since 1992

Source -

As the above figures show current policies are not working very well and these figures are not getting any lower on a year by year basis. I think its obvious to most Americans that the border issue is not being taken seriously enough. There are already far reaching and hard hitting consequences as a result of the current immigration problem yet there is precious little being done about it. The question i ask myself is why? And who is this benefiting? Certainly not the American people.

posted on Jan, 3 2008 @ 01:56 AM
Debate Season 2: Immigration in the Cross Hairs – Opening Post by TheBorg

My fellow ATSers, I thank you once again for indulging myself and Argos in another match of wits on a very poignant topic that has a direct impact on the current status of this nation, and it’s very near future. I would also like to thank The Vagabond once again for his generosity in allowing this to take place. I’d like to apologize for my absence, as I’ve been VERY busy these past 2 weeks with the holidays. However, I’m back, and my gloves are prepped. So, lets get right to it!!

The point of contention is thus: “The Mexican Border issue is being allowed to happen to propel the US into a 3rd World Nation status.” While on the surface this may appear to be a true statement, there are many other underlying issues that can, and do mire the debate. There are several that I will be dealing with throughout the course of this debate. Some of these will be:

1) Enforcement is not as possible as we might like because of the lack of personnel due to the US’s involvement in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as other armed conflicts in other areas of the world.

2) Local police are ill equipped to handle the onslaught of illegal immigrants entering our country, not because they are being forcefully prevented, per se, but because they are bound by ancient protocols that are outdated, and no longer serve their functions.

3) Congress can’t budget anymore money for border security, not because they don’t want to, but because they wouldn’t be able to effectively run a war on 3 fronts with the severely limited resources that we currently have. According to this site, the ~$71B war appropriations bill being proposed will probably go on relatively unopposed. This money is not able to adequately meet all of the goals on their very long list of things to accomplish, but they don’t put any towards the border issues because they are tied up with trying to end the conflict in the Middle East.

These are just a few of the myriad of things that are involved in this difficult situation that we find ourselves. I’m of the opinion that this hot issue needs some thorough thought, with as much evidence as one can find on both sides, before they can make their own minds up. From what I’ve seen in my studies, it appears that we are ill-equipped to handle the population loads that are affecting us right now.

Throughout this debate, I aim to show that this isn’t due to a secret cabal controlling the actions of groups of people to benefit them. Instead, I aim to show that this is simply the result of too many resources being put into other things that aren’t affecting the US in general. It is believed by many that if we got out of Iraq, and refocused all of our money to the things that matter here at home, such as this issue, then we’d see results.

I’m with them on this one.


posted on Jan, 5 2008 @ 05:22 PM
Ok so lets get down to the nitty gritty of this whole situation. The question is who benefits from having the America/Mexico border issue the way it is?

I think the answer to this question becomes obvious when you start to look at the issues and solutions proposed surrounding the border issue. Lets take as a starting example. Identity cards. The use of these biometric ID cards would single handedly wipe out the border issue according to supporters. In fact this news report seems to think the benefits of these ID cards clearly out weighs the concerns. I'll let you make your own mind up about that one.

The more of a problem the border issue becomes the more support will gather for the use of these biometric ID cards. And as most people on ATS know it will be good bye freedom if their use is ever approved. Who plan does this set of circumstances further?

Lets look at another example for my line of thinking. Militarisation of the America/Mexico border. Policies surrounding the border issue have been getting more and more inhumane with excessive force is becoming common practice. One proposal which was accepted allowed further militarisation of the border.

Senator Barbara Boxer succeeded in passing her proposal for
National Guard deployment along the U.S.-Mexican border. This
signals an increased militarization of our borders with Mexico Rico,
a precedent setting trend that brings important Constitutional &
human rights questions into light.

What does this mean, well the article i used as a source above goes on to say that the use of the military for civilian law enforcement is not only wrong but un-constitutional. This single situation is being geared up in my opinion so that the American people are used to having military forces proceeding over civilian matters. Who is benefiting from having this situation like this?

Next lets look a little bit at crime. According to the federal reserve bank of Dallas:

In border counties there is a significant positive correlation between illegal immigration and violent crime.

And i think it would be difficult for most to disagree with this statement. The massive influx of illegal immigrants that arrive in America each year usually have a very tough ride finding and holding down jobs. They often have to turn to crime to support themselves instead of heading back south of the border. What does this mean? In my opinion a steadily increasing population of illegal immigrants is the ideal base population for instating a police state through draconian laws without raising as many objections. So again who does this benefit?

My counterpart in this debate The Borg would like you to believe that the US government is doing all they can but the cost of war is taking up all the resources of this vastly wealthy and powerful USA. I on the other hand believe this is poppycock. If this was such a serious issue to those in charge then why wouldn't they take serious action to rectify this situation. Surely a war on the home front is a lot more important and pressing than the illegal wars that are taking place abroad. American soil could be attacked by their enemies from these wars alot easier on home soil because of the border issue.

"A top al Qaeda lieutenant has met with leaders of a violent Salvadoran criminal gang with roots in Mexico and the United States — including a stronghold in the Washington area — in an effort by the terrorist network to seek help infiltrating the U.S.-Mexico border, law enforcement authorities said."

The solutions to the America/Mexico border problem are in my opinion not going to happen any time soon. America is busy building bases, expanding territory and power over middle eastern regions. And this doesn't look like its going to end anytime soon. And the problems arising from the border issue are only serving to help further the plans of the people this situation is benefiting. The NWO. While American forces are off invading and occupying other countries the people in charge have the perfect excuse for not being able to spend money on the border issue. And as the border problem turns from issue to crisis certain policies and laws (like some of the issues i have gone in to above) will seem justifiable. And we all know what that will mean. ID cards, militarised police force, police state, laws taking even more of your civil liberties away. Whose plan does that sound like?

The floor is yours The Borg...

posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 03:43 AM
Debate Season 2: Immigration in the Cross Hairs – First Reply by TheBorg

Well, it’s been a while since I’ve had time to sit down and actually type anything of merit, so here we go. I’d like to again send my apologies to everyone for the long delay. Computer security issues and real life keep catching me off guard.

Onto the good stuff…

Dear reader, my colleague would have you believe that the first point listed in my opening statement is illegal. My colleague says:

What does this mean, well the article i used as a source above goes on to say that the use of the military for civilian law enforcement is not only wrong but un-constitutional.

emphasis mine

For clarification, let’s take a look at what I said, and then elaborate on it some:

Point 1

1) Enforcement is not as possible as we might like because of the lack of personnel due to the US’s involvement in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as other armed conflicts in other areas of the world.

Now, my very astute colleague’s previous quote seems a little odd to me, because according to the Constitution:

Whenever the President considers that unlawful obstructions, combinations, or assemblages, or rebellion against the authority of the United States, make it impracticable to enforce the laws of the United States in any State or Territory by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, he may call into Federal service such of the militia of any State, and use such of the armed forces, as he considers necessary to enforce those laws or to suppress the rebellion.

This sets an uncomfortable precedent for my colleague here, as everyone can see. He speaks of martial law, but what we’re really dealing with here is an unwanted invasion of our lands by criminals, not martial law. This is, by the very definition, an act of war. Some would contest that fact, but to come across our borders without proper documentation makes one a criminal, regardless of how anyone interprets the law. By this act, the President of the United States has the very right, obligation, and duty to defend this nation, the Constitution, and above all this nation’s People, in any way that he or she can. This would not be classified as Martial Law, since the Military would be supporting the laws of the land, as well as supporting others that would be deputized to help the cause.

It stands as testament to this president that he has failed miserably to accomplish anything along the borders. This is due, in large part, to his intent desire to see other conflicts raged elsewhere, while our doors remain wide open. The logic here is elusive, but that doesn’t automatically conclude that there’s some shadow force pushing all of the buttons. To make matters worse, according to there are, at this very moment, approximately 144,000 US troops currently stationed in Iraq alone. With our main military fighting force out in another country, fighting a war that is costing the US taxpayers ~$70B annually, what’s left to defend the homeland? We’re so thinly stretched that we’re pulling our National Guard out to do rotations in Iraq. If we’re this scrapped for personnel, then who exactly is watching the borders? Local police are ill-equipped to handle the loads of people coming over the borders illegally, given the current laws restricting them from action.

So, dear reader, what can be done to alleviate this problem? One possible solution would be to allow the local law enforcement to use more drastic measures to subdue and detain illegal aliens as they cross the borders. Once they’re detained, we hold them as the criminals that they are, and make them serve their appointed time in penance, whatever that may be.

In the next post, I’ll elaborate on what specific laws can be better enforced to allow the local law enforcement to do their jobs.

Dear reader, please allow my colleague, Argos, to come back to the podium.


posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 04:59 AM
In response to my opponents comments about the presidents right to call in the military in an event he feels necessary to do so. I would like to say that i am simply stating that in my opinion the border issue is being allowed to escalate so the use of military in such civilian matters becomes more widely accepted. And while the military can lawfully be used by the president for such matters it sets a dangerous precedent.

My opinion is that the US border situation is being allowed to happen and is being allowed to worsen because of the value of policies that can be put in place to combat it. When you look at some of these policies to me anyway it then becomes clear why my opponent says this:

It stands as testament to this president that he has failed miserably to accomplish anything along the borders.

The president who is most likely a NWO puppet has had too much success with a wide variety of policies implemented because of this problem to want it fixed. And those policies are in the main what i have talked about in my argument in this debate. ID cards, militarised police force etc.

Back onto my argument. Other reasons the US is happy to allow the border issue to remain the same is the economy. Take for instance the fact Immigrants are a net fiscal benefit to the U.S. economy.

In a 2007 report, the White House Council of Economic Advisers concluded that, because immigrants increase the size of the total labor force, complement the native-born workforce, and stimulate capital investment by adding workers to the labor pool, immigration increases the U.S. Gross Domestic Product (GDP) by roughly $37 billion each year.8

According to a 1997 study by the National Research Council, “the average fiscal impact of immigrants…is positive in part because they tend to arrive at young working ages, in part because their descendants are expected to have higher skills and incomes, in part because they pay taxes for some items, such as national defense and interest on the federal debt, for which they do not impose costs, and in part because they will help to pay the public costs of the aging baby-boom generations.” In addition, “the economic benefits of immigration that operate only through lower prices, without displacing or disadvantaging competitive domestic labor, add to the positive effects of immigration.”9

Also the vast majority of immigrants are unable to use public services such as medicaid because of their illegal status and this means:

Immigrants pay more in taxes than they consume in public benefits. The National Research Council estimated in 1997 that “the average immigrant pays nearly $1,800 more in taxes than he or she costs in benefits.”10

Undocumented immigrants are taxpayers, too. Between one-half and three-quarters of undocumented immigrants pay federal and state income taxes, Social Security taxes, and Medicare taxes. Moreover, all immigrants (legal and undocumented) pay sales taxes (when they buy anything at a store, for instance) and property taxes (even if they rent housing).14 According to the 2005 Economic Report of the President, undocumented immigrants working “‘on the books’…contribute to the tax rolls but are ineligible for almost all Federal public assistance programs and most major Federal-state programs.” The report also notes that immigrants in general “contribute money to public coffers by paying sales and property taxes (the latter are implicit in apartment rents).”15

The more and more you look at the economic environment surrounding the immigration issue the more it becomes clear that the situation is well documented as a net benefit to the US economy. I mean the whole situation benefits the corporations who get much cheaper labour costs within the US. The idea of debt slavery comes into this argument as well with poorer people trapped in their jobs who cant afford to quit can as well as being badly paid be forced into corporate brand loyalty because of their position.

I don't know if you are all familiar with the story of the Racine, Wisconsin man who worked for a Miller Beer distributor but was fired after a local newspaper published a photograph of him drinking a Bud Light.

It seems to me that behind the scenes everyone is all to happy with the border problem, because behind the scenes this isn't a problem. The policies that could be involved to solve the problem all seem to benefit the furthering of the NWO's plans and if you took all the immigrants out of America the economy would fall apart. Its no wonder the US is allowing "The Mexican Border issue to happen to propel the US into a 3rd World Nation status."

My opponent would have you believe that the US government is failing when it comes to the US border issue i would have you believe they are failing intentionally.

The floor is again yours The Borg.

posted on Jan, 24 2008 @ 01:38 AM
Debate Season 2: Immigration in the Cross Hairs – Second Reply by TheBorg

In this post, I’ll outline my second point:

2) Local police are ill equipped to handle the onslaught of illegal immigrants entering our country, not because they are being forcefully prevented, per se, but because they are bound by ancient protocols that are outdated, and no longer serve their functions.

Now correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t it the local law enforcement’s job to serve and protect all of its legalized citizens from any threats? Assuming this is so, then we must also assume that this means from invasion. One can call it whatever they want; what’s going on at the southern border is most definitely an invasion. It’s one that the local authorities need to stand up and do something about.

However, according to this site , Governor Rick Perry plans to pump $3 Million into the Border Patrol to help bolster their crime-fighting abilities. While this may look like an adequate amount on the surface, one must look at what all Mr. Perry is looking to accomplish with this money. He’s expecting to be able to hire more local law enforcement, stop violent crime along all of the border cities, and bring in OTMs (“Illegal aliens from countries other than Mexico”), all with the very limited funding of $3 Million USD. Quite honestly, I don’t see that being nearly enough to accomplish all of the tasks that he has set forth.

One of the biggest things that Mr. Perry could actually do something about, for no additional cost, would be to allow the border patrol agents and local police forces to be able to arrest any and all illegal immigrants as they cross. Next, he could go talk to the Mexican President, and outline a few of the things that we need from them on their side of the border. Should they not respond according to the agreement that we would make with them, the US could then set sanctions down on them, to encourage them to follow the plans that they themselves signed into motion. This would, of course, require federal support. If that’s not attainable, then a compromise would have to be reached.

Now, dear reader, you’re probably reading this and thinking that I’m in full support of a closed border. Well, I’m not. All I’m in favor of is an understanding of what our fundamental rights are as a nation, and that those bordering us honor those, as we honor theirs.

The laws that are currently on the books give a basic outline of what one must do to apprehend an illegal alien. According to a Department of Justice document made in 1996, the following is allowed:

Subject to the provisions of state law, state and local police may constitutionally detain or arrest aliens for violating the criminal provisions of the Immigration and Naturalization Act.
State and local police lack recognized legal authority to stop and detain an alien solely on suspicion of civil deportability, as opposed to a criminal violation of the immigration laws or other laws.
State and local police may detain aliens reasonably suspected of a criminal violation of the immigration laws for periods of as long as 45 to 60 minutes when detentions of that length are necessary to allow for the arrival of Border Patrol agents who are needed for the informed federal disposition of the suspected violations.

If I remember correctly, the first statement constitutes the crossing of the border. If they can be arrested at this point, then they should be. The reason that they aren’t, based on the studies that I’ve done, is because there aren’t enough agents in the area to make the arrests at the times that they are needed. With approximately 15,000 border patrol agents stationed along the Texas / Mexico border, there’s plenty of room for them to slip through and get into the country.

To better serve the People of all border states, the second statement should be changes to allow all state and local police to detain any aliens that enter our country by skirting the border stations.

In the case of the third statement, I think the police should be allowed to hold any aliens suspected of committing any criminal act for up to the standard three days, which would mainly serve to establish whether they are legal or not. Should they be illegal, they should be fined, and sent back across the border, after they work for the state to pay back the fine issued.

While the guidelines for detaining illegal immigrants used to be clear-cut, it’s no longer that way. We’re now in an era where crossing the border into our country is as common as going down the street to the store. It is still my opinion that through a series of small, fundamental changes to the current guidelines, and enforcement of the laws that we have, we could get back into a trend of standing up for ourselves as a nation. These most basic of changes will allow us to slowly reclaim our national security, as well as our sovereignty.

Argos, the floor is yours…


posted on Jan, 27 2008 @ 10:47 PM
Right back in business and away we go. I hope this post isn't to defunct for you readers my head hasn't been properly in the game for a little while but finishing this debate will be a nice little warm up for the big champ tournament cominp up. TheBorg i hope your ready lets finish this dance ;-)

Firstly i would like to thank you TheBorg for a most enlightening post. I am a bit puzzled though it seems to me that you are suggesting that there are lots of steps the US government could be taking but dont. And as you pointed out a measly 3 million dollars isn't going to scratch the surface of the border issue.

So what i'm left with from your post is mainly to agree with you. And maintain my overall point that the border issue could most probably be fixed quite easily with new legislation but the shadow government within the US is never going to allow this to happen. These "ancient protocols" as you put it suit these power hungry elitists just fine.

Now i would like to carry on and explain another reason why the real powers that be in the USA are happy with the border issue. The USA could soon lose its sovereignty and become part of the North American Union. It is my opinion that the mixing of the peoples through illegal immigration was always one of the goals of the elitists who are trying to set the NAU up. It obviously helps alot to have a good percentage of south American peoples already living in America to gather support and give the NAU momentum from within the USA once it is announced.

As i'm sure many of you will agree America like many other western nations have sold out to big business a long time ago and is in my opinion a country run on facism. Big corperations would love for the NAU to become a reality for a whole host of economic reasons like free movement of people for instance creating cheaper and more productive labour forces. A feature already prominent when discussing this issue.

In my posts above and in this one here i have stated many reasons why the US "shadow" government is quite happy with the way things are surrounding the border issue. Legislation and money and a focus from within the US and its elected officials to start homing in on and sorting out the problems on the home front instead of abroad would lead to the border issue being solved quite easily. But of course this will not happen because the US isn't run by a government by the people, for the people and of the people any more. It is big business that runs the show now.

And the border issue to the elitists who are really in charge currently means as explained in all my posts, more power, more control and more money.

Back over to your TheBorg

posted on Jan, 29 2008 @ 04:29 AM
Debate Season 2: Immigration in the Cross Hairs – Third Reply by TheBorg

Argos buddy, this is heating up pretty nicely. I liked that last reply. It was very enlightening. Anyway, off to the reply…

Before I begin my third reply, I’d like to take the chance to rebut my colleague’s previous post. In his post, he maintains that the reason that the border agents aren’t getting any funding is because the “shadow government” is actively doing everything in their power to ensure that they don’t get what they need to do their jobs effectively. My response to this is that this is not necessarily the case. There are many other reasons why this might be going on. One might be that the government has less money allocated to this issue, and they can’t put more into it because of needing to make other allocations that they feel are more important, such as military maintenance.

Next, my colleague points out a very prominent theory amongst a large number of people; that big business has bought out our sovereignty. The theory goes that they will buy all that they can get their hands on, and then turn America into a slave-state, where the masses serve their corporate masters. While this theory has been gaining steam of late, and even has a certain air of truth to it, it still lacks one fundamental thing; the People’s Will. At any time, We the People can remove these supposed corporate-purchased puppets out of their offices, by force if necessary, and replace them with people that WE think better embody our ideals. This is, after all, the duty of every single American citizen.

This ties in nicely with the next point that I’m going to outline.

3) Congress can’t budget anymore money for border security, not because they don’t want to, but because they wouldn’t be able to effectively run a war on 3 fronts with the severely limited resources that we currently have.

As I briefly outlined in my last post, it’s become painfully apparent that there needs to be more money put into protecting our borders from intrusion by people that don’t have any right to be here. With that said, there are also a lot of other things that the US is doing around the world that require funding. We’re currently involved in 3 wars: Afghanistan, Iraq, and even though not many people remember it, the Korean War. Along with these, we also have military bases in many other countries, as well as emergency aid programs in third-world countries, to give aid to those less fortunate than ourselves. Add to this other domestic programs that we have, and one can again see how little money there is left over for any border reinforcement budgeting.

One way to fix this would be for the government to establish a fiscal plan, beginning this year, that allocates an extra $2 Billion to help the border security efforts. This money could be used to bolster the stagnant borders with agents that will be properly equipped to do the jobs that they are mandated to do. Also, the federal judicial system would enforce the laws that are on the books, and support the agents hired to protect us from invasion. New laws could be enacted that would go towards helping these new border agents to apprehend and prosecute would-be drug-traffickers, as well as potential terrorists as they cross the border. The sooner they’re caught, the safer America will be from any threats from outside of our borders.

There are a myriad of options to help aid the government in getting said money too. One option would be to have a private fund set up, where all citizens could put money into a location that would go towards helping with all border security. Citizens could also volunteer their time and materials to help build any infrastructure along the borders that may need to be built. With the aid of large numbers of people and materials, the government wouldn’t be totally reliant on itself for footing the bill for this endeavor. After all, it’s everyone’s responsibility to do whatever they can to help their country, right?

Also, the amount of money it will take to manage three separate fronts at once will be huge. Any military-type action taken along the border could and would be construed as an act of aggression by the Mexican officials, and they may take action against us in return. For this reason, we’ll need military stationed nearby that can help in the event of a military uprising along the border states. We should be prepared for all contingencies, regardless of likelihood.

To conclude this post, let me ask you, dear reader, a very simple question…

If you were given the opportunity to do something that could effectively change the outcome of the nation and the world in the years to come, wouldn’t you take it?

Honestly, there’s nothing that I’d rather do than help the world to become better than it was before I came here. We each have an obligation to do the right thing. And, for each of us, that can be any number of things. Together, we can accomplish anything. However, it takes that unity to do so. If more funding can be found to help support the border agents, then there may be hope yet for a timely resolution to this issue. Only time will tell…

I leave it to you to summarize Argos. Good luck…


posted on Jan, 29 2008 @ 11:31 AM
And on to my final post.

I realise i am strongly basing my argument on a conspiracy theory and im going way out there but i wont be swayed from my view point. I believe that my argument is true. Its very easy to say there isn't enough money to fund wars on 3 battle fronts but i think most Americans believe as i do that the main battle front the USA should be fighting on is there own home soil. Surely that is the most important battle to win.

I mean way it up logically, take democracy to the Middle East and free the region of dictators or stop the invasion of illegal immigrants in your own country right now. I maintain that there is a reason for this in-balance. Whilst there isn't enough money to stem the flow of illegal immigrants the shadow government have the consequences of this situation to there advantage.

And here's a summary of why from all my earlier posts:

- Illegal immigrant’s increase crime stats within the USA giving the people in charge the opportunity to enforce harsher and stricter more draconian laws advancing the concept of a police state.

- Illegal immigrants increase economic growth within the USA.

- Illegal immigrants are an ever increasing population as well as legal Mexicans that would most likely support the NAU and the prosperity that would bring their mother country as well as being able to legally live in USA.

- Militarising police forces for use in border control. Again the fact that this is happening shows us that Americans are all to happy with a militarised police force handling civilian matters. What happens when they start using these powers against the American public and not just for border control? More likely when that happens it'll be called order control.

- The use of biometric identity cards could soon become a reality because of the border issue.

And there are many more but these are the most important for my argument. I ask you dear reader for the last time to way the above arguments up for yourself. Should the US government be fighting war on the home front instead of trying to take democracy to the Middle East? Do you honestly believe the government could not sort the border issue out if they really wanted to?

I offer many reasons why the shadow government is most likely happy with the current border situation, whilst my opponent only offers possible solutions. I applaud my opponent’s research and care for this matter but i don’t agree with his balance of the argument. To me it seems insane that the US government would only spend silly little amounts like 3 million on the border issue. I think its much more important to protect the home front. And i also believe this how most Americans feel as well. And the fact this isn't happening and instead the solutions they are offering all lend themselves to the conspiracy theory i have suggested as my overall argument leads me to believe "The Mexican Border issue is being allowed to happen to propel the US into a 3rd World Nation status".

Thank you for a great debate TheBorg i look forward to your final post.

Mod Edit: fixed bbcode

[edit on 29-1-2008 by chissler]

posted on Jan, 31 2008 @ 11:59 PM
The Borg is late and forfeits his closing argument.

The final score is 22-6 at 10pm pacific, 1/31/08. Argos is the winner.

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