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Union: 2. United States: the United States of America
Confederate States of America: States that seceded: the confederation of the 11 southern states that seceded from the United States [Union] in 1861
State: 2. country: a country or nation with its own sovereign independent government
Originally posted by Astyanax
A Socratic dialogue on states' rights. How Faulknerian!
Please tell me you hail from south of the Mason-Dixon line. One dare not hope for Mississippi.
Originally posted by NovusOrdoMundi
You didn't explain why the Civil War never happened. How come it never happened? Do you have proof?
The United States is a country.
The Territories of the United States may be incorporated (part of the United States proper) or unincorporated (known variously as "possessions", "overseas territories" or "commonwealths") Territories may also be organized (with self-government explicitly granted by an Organic Act of the U.S. Congress) or unorganized (without such direct authorization of self-government). 31 of the current 50 states were organized incorporated territories before their admission to the Union. Since 1959, the United States has had only one incorporated territory (Palmyra Atoll), but maintains control of several unincorporated territories, both organized and unorganized.
New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.
As for the states basically being countries in a union, they're actually states, or administrative divisions inside a country, i.e. the United States.
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Every country around the world has administrative divisions. The United States is no different. The "states" are administrative divisions. Perhaps they have more individual powers than most administrative divisions around the world. I don't know, that would have to be researched. But they aren't individual countries making up a union, they're divisions making up a country.
Originally posted by redoubt
I couldn't help but note how regionally bigotted your reply was.
Do you stereotype people from other nations in the same way?
How about gender?
Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
Unfortunately your "discussion" builds straw men atop straw men.
1) "throwing away" one constitution for another. The Articles of Confederation were never a Constitution. Furthermore, the new constitution was not fully ratified until the same year that the Articles of Confederation were set to expire - 1790.
The Continental Congress adopted the Articles of Confederation, the first constitution of the United States, on November 15, 1777. However, ratification of the Articles of Confederation by all thirteen states did not occur until March 1, 1781. The Articles created a loose confederation of sovereign states and a weak central government, leaving most of the power with the state governments.
2) There was no coercion or deceit involved in the adoption of the current Constitution. it was drafted by delegates chosen by the states, and brought to each state for vote and ratification. That is, each state as a n individual entity was presented with the opportunity to vote yes or no or even ask for changes before a vote. Each one of them voted in favor of the new constitution.
4) The confederate states did not secede for a sanitized political term such as "State sovereignty." The confederate states seceded in order to preserve the practice of slavery which provided the backbone of their economies. Paint it any way you like, but no entity, "sovereign state" or no has any right to allow some of its population to treat others in the population as if they were livestock.
5) The later "assimilations" of other states occurred with the full consent of the state governments, granted to them by the people thus governed, with one possible exception, that being the Kingdom of Hawai'i.
7) Yes, the United States has a centralized government. The territory is too vast and the population too large for a workable state-by-state governance. It is not through any sinister motive, but one of practicality and efficiency, which is recognized by all fifty states that make up the union, who have unanimously chosen to accept and maintain this way of working things.
Originally posted by Astyanax
Crossing swords
Nice avatar, redoubt.
Originally posted by redoubt
I couldn't help but note how regionally bigotted your reply was.
Now here's the thing. William Faulkner is one of my favourite writers. I'm pretty familiar with the fields and woods of Yoknapatawpha County - do you know it? The Sartorises, the Compsons, the McCaslins, the Snopeses and all the rest live on in my imagination, as they do in many others', and though their creator is no longer with us, he is as immortal as they. So my 'regionally bigoted' reply was really by way of being a fairly delicate compliment. For your information, Faulkner was born near Oxford, Mississippi, in 1897.
[...]
I think you may, to use a very Faulknerian image, be barking up the wrong tree here. Why not call off the dogs and proceed with the thread?
[edit on 20-12-2007 by Astyanax]
Originally posted by NovusOrdoMundi
reply to post by benign.psychosis
It's a "union" in the sense of the definition of "union": 1. the act of uniting two or more things.
But if you're implying all states are actually independent nations, then that's wrong. Are you implying all states are actually countries?
Confederation, in political terminology, a union of sovereign states each of which is free to act independently. It is distinguished from a federation, in which the individual states are subordinate to the central government.
Originally posted by redoubt
Originally posted by Astyanax
A Socratic dialogue on states' rights. How Faulknerian!
Please tell me you hail from south of the Mason-Dixon line. One dare not hope for Mississippi.
I didn't offer that original post but... I couldn't help but note how regionally bigotted your reply was. Do you stereotype people from other nations in the same way? How about gender?
Yes, I am from very South of that line you refer to... should I now follow your lead and make an equally ignorant reply?
What else? The United States isn't a country? It's not a country because you are twisting the word "union" and "federation" because in your mind it absolutely must be one or the other?
We ... solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States ... and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do.
ARTICLE I
The Style of this confederacy shall be “The United States of America.”
ARTICLE II
Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom and independence, and every Power, Jurisdiction and right, which is not by this confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.
The said states hereby severally enter into a firm league of friendship with each other, for their common defence, the security of their Liberties, and their mutual and general welfare, binding themselves to assist each other, against all force offered to, or attacks made upon them, or any of them, on account of religion, sovereignty, trade, or any other pretence whatever.
Citizenship of the Union is hereby established. Every person holding the nationality of a Member State shall be a citizen of the Union. Citizenship of the Union shall complement and not replace national citizenship.
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject
to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.
If I go along with that and say 'you're right, it is a union'. Ok, now what? What point have you proved? What should we look around at and realize is different? What's different? What has changed?