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Are Christians Truly "Weak Sheep Who Can't Think For Themselves"?

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posted on Dec, 18 2007 @ 09:02 PM
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First off I'd like to say that this post isn't meant to bash anyone or their beliefs, but to inform from one Christian's perspective. I was inspired to write it after reading post after post here on ATS and many other message boards that are directed at Christians saying that they're "weak" people who "blindly follow like sheep" and don't "think for themselves". And, before anyone can hang the umbrella of "Bible Thumper" or "Fundamentalist Christian" over my head, let me tell you that I belong to no organized man-made religion. I am a follower of Christ, plain and simple.

So, to start off you basically have two choices when it comes to how we got here. Either you believe in the Creator and the validity of the Scriptures, or you believe in the theory of evolution. Those who believe in evolution largely believe that Christians are "blind followers". But my question for them is "did you think up that theory of evolution all on your own? Or are they blindly following what scientists have told you to believe?" Isn't agreeing with what Scientists say in regards to their theories of evolution in fact the same as the "not thinking for yourself" you accuse Christians of? If you really want to talk about thinking for yourself, then shouldn't you come up with a theory for how we got here and not simply agree with someone else's theory? Either way, bottom line, it's a decision between what makes more sense to each individual person who is in fact exercising their Free Will and their ability to think for themselves.

As far as "blindly following like sheep" goes, anyone who has truly studied the scriptures knows that to blindly follow simply isn't possible. Study means just what it says. Study. It takes thought, consideration, pondering, meditation, wisdom and understanding. There's no blind about it at all. You must approach the scriptures with eyes wide open and ultimately our hearts dictate what we choose to believe as truth. Either you choose to believe or not believe but there's most definitely nothing blind about it. I'm sure there are many Biblical scholars and Theologians who would definitely agree with that statement.

And now on to being "weak". While I've been a Christian all my life, there were several years in which I followed a different path and I can honestly say that those years were the years when I was at my weakest. I was actually at my weakest when I leaned towards the belief in the Big Bang Theory, the Theory of Evolution and Aliens. I can tell you what weak is. Weak is not following what the scriptures tell us to do in order to live harmoniously with one another and achieve eternal life. Weak is being unforgiving and vindictive. It takes more strength to forgive than it does to hold a grudge. Weak is having no self-control. Weak is not standing for what you believe in. Weak is lacking compassion for your fellow man. Weak is being an adulterer, murderer, rapist or other vile criminal and giving in to the inner needs and desires that are of this world. Weak is lacking the courage and conviction to have faith. It takes strength to forgive. It takes strength to pray for your enemies when you've been wronged. It takes strength to trust and have faith. It takes strength to treat others with kindness and compassion. It takes strength have self-control and to not blindly follow what mainstream society views as acceptable behavior. It takes strength to follow God's commandments and walk in Christ's footsteps. It takes strength to be a true Christian.


[edit on 18-12-2007 by ReginaAdonnaAaron]




posted on Dec, 18 2007 @ 10:16 PM
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This is excellent!

God bless you.

You see there are souls who think of christians in terms of their blinded understanding. They blaspheme everything they dont understand.

It does take courage to have faith, and many have seen miracles including St Gemma who had so much faith she talked to her angel amolst daily and stigmata.

your a breath of fresh air in this forum.

peace.



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 12:25 AM
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Well, first there are more than two choices of belief has to how we got there. There are a wide variety of religions and beliefs out there, not just christianity and atheism.

However I agree with you. I am not a christian but I do believe in God and it kinda irks me when the athiests accuse those of us who do believe in some sort of diety of not being able to think for ourselves.



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 03:35 AM
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I think that is the best post that i have seen here on ATS. Sometimes it takes a different way of looking at things to put things in perspective. You have "turned the tables" so to speak.
Well done.
John.



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 05:57 AM
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You'll know a tree by it's fruit. I believe that true integrity is developed during the times that we entertain the possibilty that maybe this is all there is...certainly that is a possibility that can't be ruled out. If the atheist or the faithful could prove anything it'd only be to themselves, but it'd ruin any test by influencing motives. Does that make any sence? Respectfully, Mike



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 07:22 AM
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Originally posted by jon1
I think that is the best post that i have seen here on ATS. Sometimes it takes a different way of looking at things to put things in perspective. You have "turned the tables" so to speak.
Well done.
John.


I agree this is the best post.



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 08:11 AM
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Originally posted by ReginaAdonnaAaron

So, to start off you basically have two choices when it comes to how we got here.Either you believe in the Creator and the validity of the Scriptures, or you believe in the theory of evolution.
Thats a false statement as there is more than one religious view and also the fact the some religious people adhere to the Theory of evolution


Those who believe in evolution largely believe that Christians are "blind followers". But my question for them is "did you think up that theory of evolution all on your own? Or are they blindly following what scientists have told you to believe?"
I think you are 'blind followers' mainly due to the fact that you have no supporting evidence for your claims. Do you deny that your beliefs are based on faith? If so produce some supporting evidence for your claims (BTW biblical scripture is not supporting evidence nor is personal experience). The theory of evolution has supporting evidence whether you like it or not, the main debate is through which mechanism that it works. Do you deny that DNA and genes can mutate or do you think that adam and eve were genetically encoded with all variations along with all the first animals and plants?

Isn't agreeing with what Scientists say in regards to their theories of evolution in fact the same as the "not thinking for yourself" you accuse Christians of?
Not really as they have supporting evidence for their claims which religions do not.

If you really want to talk about thinking for yourself, then shouldn't you come up with a theory for how we got here and not simply agree with someone else's theory?
And what if, when thinking up my own theory, I arrive at the same conclusion as the scientists, would I simply be agreeing then?

Either way, bottom line, it's a decision between what makes more sense to each individual person who is in fact exercising their Free Will and their ability to think for themselves.
I totally agree with that but as I have said religions have no supporting evidence


As far as "blindly following like sheep" goes, anyone who has truly studied the scriptures knows that to blindly follow simply isn't possible. Study means just what it says. Study. It takes thought, consideration, pondering, meditation, wisdom and understanding. There's no blind about it at all. You must approach the scriptures with eyes wide open and ultimately our hearts dictate what we choose to believe as truth. Either you choose to believe or not believe but there's most definitely nothing blind about it. I'm sure there are many Biblical scholars and Theologians who would definitely agree with that statement.
I tend to agree however if you have a predisposition to be inclined to faith the you will have the blinkers on regarding other views


And now on to being "weak". While I've been a Christian all my life, there were several years in which I followed a different path and I can honestly say that those years were the years when I was at my weakest. I was actually at my weakest when I leaned towards the belief in the Big Bang Theory, the Theory of Evolution and Aliens.
Personal experience cannot be used as an argument in this way as you are just one person out of 6.5 billion an so therefore is meaningless to no one but yourself.


I can tell you what weak is. Weak is not following what the scriptures tell us to do in order to live harmoniously with one another and achieve eternal life. Weak is being unforgiving and vindictive. It takes more strength to forgive than it does to hold a grudge. Weak is having no self-control. Weak is not standing for what you believe in. Weak is lacking compassion for your fellow man. Weak is being an adulterer, murderer, rapist or other vile criminal and giving in to the inner needs and desires that are of this world. Weak is lacking the courage and conviction to have faith. It takes strength to forgive. It takes strength to pray for your enemies when you've been wronged. It takes strength to trust and have faith. It takes strength to treat others with kindness and compassion. It takes strength have self-control and to not blindly follow what mainstream society views as acceptable behavior. It takes strength to follow God's commandments and walk in Christ's footsteps. It takes strength to be a true Christian.
[edit on 18-12-2007 by ReginaAdonnaAaron]
Your personal convictions are admirable but again are meaningless as not everyone would or will agree with them. But I agree that it takes strength to be a christian as it takes strength to be a muslim or a jew or an atheist.


G



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 08:13 AM
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It's two things really about faithful people and non believers.

The non Believer likes his own mind and own decisions not to be made for them, and hence not be bound by laws. They won't feel like they have to abide or fear the outcome of an after life either. Many Christians believe that is the reason why Crime and violence has spread in the West for the lack of faith that holds all other morals in place. People who feel free from faith are liberated to do as they please more often than a believer which is okay but how far do people go?


The Believer on the other hand may not have all the fun they would like and be restricted to what they would really like to do in life and in a way feel dictated to. But they might be people who can not think for them selves but at the same time like having a gaurdian in life to protect the week is not so bad. We should all follow a law of conduct to a certain degree and sometimes people can be so inward and free from God that they will feel like God and take the law into their own hands.

But the two can be mixed and some may feel so saved in them selves that they think they can force it on others and perecute people.

On the other hand non believers may feel so right in through their evidence of science over religion that they will ban certain religious traditions and ways to promote faith in order to curb it so man goes by his own example of rule.

Man's own example of rule are in the courts today are based on the Bible anyway and has been for a long history and many people follow it anyway without faith but because of that lack of faith they will make their own versions of what has been told already.

[edit on 19-12-2007 by The time lord]



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 08:36 AM
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Originally posted by ReginaAdonnaAaron
So, to start off you basically have two choices when it comes to how we got here. Either you believe in the Creator and the validity of the Scriptures, or you believe in the theory of evolution.


I think that's what they call a false dichotomy.

As Shihlud pointed out, there a spectrum of positions on this issue, so your way off target straight away.

I also don't 'believe' in the theory of evolution, I accept it as a valid explanation of the origin of species. I also agree with other scientists because the evidence they have presented is compelling, not by authority. Essentially, you might as well accuse people of not thinking for themselves for accepting that the moon is a rock in space, rather than a ball of cheese.

[edit on 19-12-2007 by melatonin]



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 08:38 AM
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Originally posted by The time lord
Many Christians believe that is the reason why Crime and violence has spread in the West for the lack of faith that holds all other morals in place. People who feel free from faith are liberated to do as they please more often than a believer which is okay but how far do people go?


Yeah, except for the fact that the US is the most religious of the Western nations and has the highest crime rates, the highest rates of drug abuse, the highest rates of teen pregnancy and abortion, etc.

Christian morals aren't doing a very good job, now, are they?



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 09:10 AM
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The morals themselves can't "do" anything. It is the decay of the moral mind in man that is responsible for these things. Many people who say they are christian really do that because that's what their family "is" etc. It's like saying you're a doctor because your grandfather was or something like that.

This is supposed to be the country under God, so of course the majority of people living here are instilled with christian notion.
Doesn't mean they'll uphold any of it.

Drugs are the escape exit, crime is the work of the impatient and lusting, I know from firsthand experience. The picture is bleak for many people, hoplessness leads to distancing yourself from others. You aren't human anymore, and neither is society.



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 09:10 AM
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A lot of the American organisations are probably Satanists anyway and the preachers are not at fault. America was founded by the Freemasons and they lay their Satanic cult symbols all over Washington DC. Europeans have abolished capital punishment and they do not hold gun laws. So you wonder who controls America and why they are letting in so many illegals in and yet stay ignorant about it.

9/11 was not caused by Christians but the war in Iraq was maybe by a sheep in wolves clothing as the Bush family are members of Skull and Bones cult. They say they are Christians but you wonder which side they really are on?

Christian morals are being flushed down the loo because people in high places do not hold on to the basics. You can be found guilty in America now for saying the word Jesus in prayer, Jesus has been banned and is being banned while hospitals change their beds round to Mecca.

[edit on 19-12-2007 by The time lord]



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 09:19 AM
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EH? Hospital beds and Mecca?

I don't think so. The majority of people in the US claim to be Christians. They're trying to hijack our country by putting their Ten commandments in public buildings, force prayer in public school, and teach intelligent design as "science."

As an atheist, I resent the Xians trying to take over the country in the name of their god. The country is for everyone. Even satanists. Though I really doubt that they have anything to do with government.

Christians are in charge of the country and our country's collective "morality" is in the toilet.

The problem is with the Christian sky fairy, not any secret symbolism.



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 09:39 AM
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reply to post by MajorMalfunction
 


I think you'll have a hard time proving that. The Founding Fathers were quite religious and intended for this country to be religious. If you carefully read the constitution, all the religious restrictions are placed on Congress, not religion. Clearly the intent is to allow the free practice of religion. The First Amendment does not state that religion can not have an impact on law, but that law can not make any judgements on religion.



Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;


Furthermore:



IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

....And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor


Again we see the pattern of how our rights are dictated by an external religious force. Religion mandates that we must have laws that gurantee life, liberty, and allow for the pursuit of happiness. Christians are not hijacking the country. They are simply trying to keep the country the way it was initially created. The way the Founding Fathers intended it to be. This sky fairy you speak of was an intregal part of the lives of the people who founded this country. Were they uneducated or simpletons? Hardly. We know that they were some of the bravest, and greatest in all of history.




our country's collective "morality" is in the toilet.

Yet more proof that Christianity is not in control of everything that this country does. Do you really think that Roe v Wade is a decision based on Christianity?

[edit on 19-12-2007 by dbates]



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 11:55 AM
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Originally posted by MajorMalfunction


Christians are in charge of the country and our country's collective "morality" is in the toilet.

The problem is with the Christian sky fairy, not any secret symbolism.


agreed.
i do think that believers in christ/xians, whatever you want to call yourselves do follow with blind faith...i feel that way cause thats all you have. you have a book to go by. with science, there are thousands of minds and thousands of pieces of evidence that lends creed to the theory of evolution and how everything got started..

you don't have that with the magic man in the sky...
you read the book and you either have the 'faith' or you don't.

personally, i don't.

i look around and i see bad people doing bad #.
i sure don't see the magic man stepping in and righting some wrongs....



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 12:03 PM
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The one thing that I forgot to mention in my original post (and can now not find the edit button! That's a newbie for ya) is that saying you're a Christian and actually BEING a Christian are two completely different things. When I said that it takes strength to be a true Christian, this is what I meant...

There are many, many people who claim to be Christians, but who do not show it via their actions - and maybe that's what has given so many non-Believers and non-Christians a bad taste in their mouths for Christianity. It's unfortunate that so many have abandoned Christ's teachings and aren't allowing God's light to shine through them. But, there are those of us who try to remain pleasing in God and Christ's eyes by walking in Christ's footsteps every day, every hour, every minute and in every way and this is what being a true Christian and it is not an easy thing. It's not about "Religion", it's about a way of life. That is what takes so much strength to do.



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 02:03 PM
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There are many Anti-Christs in the world which by definition means that people know what is in the Bible but they will do more in stopping it than promote it, that is called Spirit of the Anti-Christ as that was happenning too after the Gospels were written as described in the book of John.

You also get people who think they are Christian by believing but to be one you have to stop following the ways of the world or gradually begin to be. You have to change your ways and become more like Christ, and when people do they will be treated differently.

You have to be strong to change and sometimes when you are weak you find the strength to get back on your feet as it's human nature and by changing from being dependent on Alchole and drugs to a rule of decipline and giving up these things then that is more about strength.

Some times God picks the weak to be made strong in Him and sometimes the strong who do bad to be have that strength transfered to his calling for a greater good.


[edit on 19-12-2007 by The time lord]



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 03:32 PM
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Originally posted by MajorMalfunction

Yeah, except for the fact that the US is the most religious of the Western nations and has the highest crime rates, the highest rates of drug abuse, the highest rates of teen pregnancy and abortion, etc.

Christian morals aren't doing a very good job, now, are they?


Lets say the US wasn't religious and all we had are the laws that we're suppossed to go by no matter what religion we belong to, then all you can say is our laws don't work. Lets say religion was never created, do you really think it'd be any different then it is now? People would still be making these kinds of laws and people would still be breaking them. There would still be people good and bad. People never take the blame for themsleves and always project it somewhere else. Thats the real problem.



[edit on 19-12-2007 by Shawn B.]



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 05:52 PM
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Originally posted by ReginaAdonnaAaron
And, before anyone can hang the umbrella of "Bible Thumper" or "Fundamentalist Christian" over my head, let me tell you that I belong to no organized man-made religion. I am a follower of Christ, plain and simple.


but do you follow a book?



So, to start off you basically have two choices when it comes to how we got here. Either you believe in the Creator and the validity of the Scriptures, or you believe in the theory of evolution.


incorrect... there are actually a plethora of creation myths out there and your logical fallacy of false dichotomy betrays your bias.
there are also those out there that believe in a creator through natural processes and the validity of scripture as something non-literal in several places.



Those who believe in evolution largely believe that Christians are "blind followers".


...my friend Mike, who is training to be a youth minister, thinks himself a blind follower?
i'm sorry, but your argument here is kind of flawed when there are more christians that believe in evolution than atheists...



But my question for them is "did you think up that theory of evolution all on your own? Or are they blindly following what scientists have told you to believe?"


no, i'm not saying simply because scientists say so, i'm following it because of the ample evidence and coherent, arguments they make based on it which clearly show their points. the scientific papers are all there and i can read them and double, triple, and quadruple check their facts, results, and arguments myself (and i have done so, often for the simple love of science and learning)



Isn't agreeing with what Scientists say in regards to their theories of evolution in fact the same as the "not thinking for yourself" you accuse Christians of?


excuse me, once more, christians can and do believe in evolution and people don't believe in evolution simply because that's what they're told



If you really want to talk about thinking for yourself, then shouldn't you come up with a theory for how we got here and not simply agree with someone else's theory?


not if that theory is the best one out there... i think for myself and come to the conclusion, based on the evidence, that the theory of evolution is correct



Either way, bottom line, it's a decision between what makes more sense to each individual person who is in fact exercising their Free Will and their ability to think for themselves.


it's not about what makes more sense to an individual, it's about what conforms to reality and the facts.



As far as "blindly following like sheep" goes, anyone who has truly studied the scriptures knows that to blindly follow simply isn't possible. Study means just what it says. Study. It takes thought, consideration, pondering, meditation, wisdom and understanding. There's no blind about it at all. You must approach the scriptures with eyes wide open and ultimately our hearts dictate what we choose to believe as truth. Either you choose to believe or not believe but there's most definitely nothing blind about it. I'm sure there are many Biblical scholars and Theologians who would definitely agree with that statement.


you would have to be blind to follow a book that outlines how to enslave people, how to subjugate women, how to properly perform genocide etc etc as a good religion...

ok, the next quote is too large so i'm not going to quote it

none of those strengths are exclusively christian or dependent on following the christian scriptures.



posted on Dec, 19 2007 @ 06:11 PM
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Evolution isn't a belief system.

For the record, it is a scientific explanation for all the fossil and other evidence that supports and illustrates the process of evolution, including dozens upon dozens of instances of speciation actually observed by people in the modern age.

A belief system relies on faith, which in turn requires no evidence.

Evolution, like all scientific theories, is based on fact, evidence, observation, and measurement with the scientific method, which is the best tool we have for observing and describing the universe.

Evolution is not a belief system. It's a fact.

Christianity is a belief system. The two paradigms are not even in the same ballpark, and attempts to dismiss evolution as a belief system is trying to make it into something it isn't. You can paint a white stripe down a black cat's back, but it still doesn't become a skunk.




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