Is there such a thing as good and evil?

Originally posted by Nohup
I suggest that what is proper is not arbitrary, but a matter of perspective.

This is because you don't have enough experience to know how to convincingly define "good" or "bad" without being subjective/arbitrary. You can't do it with words. I doubt you even know who you are, besides a name and maybe some other trivial facts about things you've done in the past. Especially since you talk about killing others as if they're ultimately somehow separate from yourself, or here for some different or lesser purpose.

Like I said, if the world is overpopulated, then it will not support a population, and things will settle themselves. Before you would take another's life, why don't you explain to me what the entire purpose of life actually is, or why it's so important that you live instead of others? And if you say because it's beneficial to you and your family, then you're just being selfish and egotistical, on top of being completely ignorant as to why you are here.

[edit on 19-12-2007 by bsbray11]

Do unto others as you would have them done unto you.

Traslation: Would I like the action I am about to do - done to me? If the answer is no then you know it's wrong.

We are all part of a whole. The whole (all of us together) is God. We are each a part of that God Head.

Hate = Dark
Love = Light.

I agree with the view of doing unto others, it certainly would reduce the number of crimes against humanity if that simple idea were followed by all.

If you were alone in a world with no other life you could only be POTENTIALLY good or bad. The reason being is that without the necessary stimuli you will have nothing to react to.
Your reactions to the things around you personify who you are and will be. If a stranger drops a wallet, do you pick it up and give it back? Do you shrink from racial slurs in certain groups of people but participate when it would be considered O.K.?
Without stimuli you could not be tested and judged. The stimuli is not good or bad it is your reaction to it.
Evil is different, it is consistent and deliberate incorrect choice in the navigation of stimuli.

We live in an age that is unlike any other in history, the rate and type of communications aimed at us is staggering. Children view roughly 40,000 ads a year right now.

Originally posted by the b rain
Evil and good are relative to many factors. Example

What evil could you do stranded alone indefinately on a deserted island? Similarly
What good could you do in the same situation?

kudos for such an excellent point.
I suppose the only evil you could do would be the evil you would decide to do to yourself.

I guess the killing freaks would vote to kill themselves off, while The folks that say killing is wrong would fight to stay alive.

I wanted to make another point here: it seems clear that there are no people from the "Paranormal" forum in this thread, otherwise someone would have already made the comment I'm about to make.

Most of you say good and evil, if at all, only exists in the human psyche. I beg to differ. I've had personal encounters with evil spirits, and they were NOT pleasant. So I do believe -- or should I say, KNOW -- that good and evil also exist as actual entities; some call them demons and angels, some call them evil and good spirits, or positive and negative entities.

Of course, if you take the relativist viewpoint, you could also say that those "evil" entities basically just do what they do for their own reasons -- to feed themselves, to play pranks = fun, to assert control and power over others -- that that's just the way they are. Nonetheless, their actions would probably be perceived as evil (i.e., malevolent, menacing) by any human being. Does that make them truly evil? Hard to say.

I'd go with the definition that "evil" (maybe "wrong" is a better word) is anything that threatens or harms someone else's life or well-being. The Wiccan Rede says, "An Ye Harm None, Do What Thou Wilt." I think that sums it up pretty well -- the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness is good, as long as you don't infringe on others' right to do the same.

Demons only differ from us in their created form. The freedom of choice with regard to the stimuli presented to them may differ in its content, but the principals remain consistent with the human versions.
To further expand to the parameters of this idea say for example a person has a tendency toward violent behaviour but has made a conscience decision to count to ten or keep cool until cornered. The ability to negotiate through a situation that would test that persons resolve would depend on the type of stimuli as well as the required effort of willpower needed to remain non-violent.
Now add alcohol to this persons list of momentary factors and the ability to resist the temptation to resolve a conflict non-violently is diminished. Police struggle regularly with individuals that have extreme behavior fluctuations as a result of impairment.
So it can be stated that good and bad can experience a suspended importance when the mind is chemically altered. The " I can't believe I did that last night" syndrome.

One man is dying of thirst and is given water, another man has had much water.

Both are given water. One man lives, and the other dies from water intoxiaction ( yes its real ) What is Good for one, is not Good for another.


Mankind must apply good reason to his action to understand that which is Good, and that which is not Good.

In the Aquarian Gospel, there exist two references to the origin of Evil as well as the Devil.

I will share both...The first being of a Magus who asks Jesus how it is that Evil can come from one that is all Good.

Jesus and the Magus regarding Evil

Well say you all, There is one God from whose great being there came forth the seven Spirits that created heaven and earth; and manifest unto the sons of men are these great Spirits in the sun, and moon, and stars. 7 But in your sacred books we read that two among these seven are of superior strength; that one of these created all the good; the other one created all that evil is. 8 I pray you, honoured masters, tell me how that evil can be born of that which is all good? 9 A magus rose and said, If you will answer me, your problem will be solved. 10 We all do recognize the fact that evil is. Whatever is, must have a cause, If God, the One, made not this evil, then, where is the God who did? 11 And Jesus said, Whatever God, the One, has made is good, and like the great first Cause, the seven Spirits all are good, and everthing that comes from their creative hands is good. 12 Now, all created things have colours, tones and forms their own; but certain tones, though good and pure themselves, when mixed, produce inharmonies, discordant tones. 13 And certain things, though good and pure, when mixed, produce discordant things, yea, poisonous things, that men call evil things. 14 So evil is the inharmonious blending of the colours, tones, or forms of good. 15 Now, man is not all-wise, and yet has will his own. He has the power, and he uses it, to mix God's good things in a multitude of ways, and every day he makes discordant sounds, and evil things. 16 And every tone and form, be it of good, or ill, becomes a living thing, a demon, sprite, or spirit of a good or vicious kind. 17 Man makes his evil thus; and then becomes afraid of him and flees; his devil is emboldened, follows him away and casts him into torturing fires. 18 The devil and the burning fires are both the works of man, and none can put the fires out and dissipate the evil one, but man who made them both. 19 Then Jesus stood aside, and not a magus answered him. 20 And he departed from the throng and went into a secret place to pray.

This second section is on the devil, and again is from the Aquarian Gospel.

Elihu in the Aquarian Gospel teaching in regards to the Devil and its origin...

There are two selfs; the higher and the lower self. 6 The higher self is human spirit clothed with soul, made in the form of God. 7 The lower self, the carnal self, the body of desires,is a reflection of the higher self, distorted by the murky ethers of the flesh. 8 The lower self is an illusion, and will pass away; the higher self is God in man, and will not pass away. 9 The higher self is the embodiment of truth reversed, and so is falsehood manifest. 10 The higher self is justice, mercy, love and right; the lower self is what the higher self is not. 11 The lower self breeds hatred, slander, lewdness, murders, theft, and everthing that harms; the higher self is mother of the virtues and the harmonies of life. 12 The lower self is rich in promises, but poor in blessedness and peace; it offers pleasure, joy and satisfying gains; but gives unrest and misery and death. 13 It gives men apples that are lovely to the eye and pleasant to the smell; their cores are full of bitterness and gall. 14 If you would ask me what to study I would say, yourselves; and when you will have studied them, and then would ask me what to study next, I would reply, yourselves. 15 He who knows well his lower self, knows the illusions of the world, knows of the things that pass away; and he who knows his higher self, know God; knows well the things that cannot pass away. 16 Thrice blessed is the man who has made purity and love his very own; he has been ransomed from the perils of the lower self and is himself his higher self. 17 Men seek salvation from an evil that they deem a living monster of the nether world; and they have gods that are but demons in disguise; all powerful, yet full of jealousy and hate and lust; 18 Whose favours must be bought with costly sacrifice of fruits, and of the lives of birds, and animals, and human kind. 19 And yet these gods possess no ears to hear, no eyes to see, no heart to sympathise, no power to save. 20 This evil is myth; these gods are made of air, clothed with shadows of a thought. 21 The only devil from which men must be redeemed is self, the lower self. If man would find his devil he must look within; his name is self. 22 If man would find his saviour he must look within; and when the demon self has been dethroned the saviour, Love, will be exulted to the throne of power. 23 The David of the light is Purity, who slays the strong Goliath of the dark, and seats the saviour, Love, upon the throne.

Mankind is versatile, and knows that which is Good for himself. It is the undertaking of that which is good for ones self, and denying the liberty and welfare of his bretheren that creates an environment of oppression and misery which can be stated as evil.

To break free of self gratification, to institute social mending, to create systems of unity, and to eliminate humanitarian strife around the Globe, this is the conquering of evil, the slaying of the devil, and the dawn of a new era.

Peace


[edit on 20-12-2007 by HIFIGUY]

Originally posted by Choronzon
Living creatures have free will to pursue life, liberty and happiness.

Any attempt by another creature to prevent that from occuring defines the na

ture of 'evil'.

Originally posted by Seiju
All of those things may be true. But my point is who has the right to state by law what is right and wrong? My idea is that no one has the right.

Might makes right, always and forever. That's what Jehovah said when he gave Moses the commandments " See this burning bush here ? Do what I tell you. Or you will end up like this bush." Oh, I should have said Yahweh.

Yes, I believe in fundamental goodness and evil. And you could argue me wrong, probably successfully.

But maybe this is one of those grey areas that is ultimately ineffable and can be wasted into a silly stalemate by philosophy students (or maybe by people who haven't studied _enough_ philosophy).

But I'd venture to articulate that coercion can never be good.

Anway, family's home--time to be good.

F

Good thread . Personally, I think it depends on the action under question. The only thing that I can think of is mass genocide, rape etc. The classification of murder can come under a different perspective see, do we not murder cattle sheep etc. as a food source? Would that not be classed as evil technically?

Some people perform actions in the heat of the moment that they instantaneously regret. The actions can mostly be brought down to an instinctive, primal level. eg territory (you go nuts on someone gropin your girlfriend, see what i mean?). Afterwards the brain processes what they've done and it's the age old line "what have i done!?"

I believe there is a universal classification of Evil, but perhaps we haven't discovered it yet..

I believe there are some universal truths in good and evil concerning humans. There are three basic rules of the universal ethic. They are:

1. Acts are good if and only if they are welcomed benifits.
2. Acts are evil if they coercively harm others as invasions.
3. All other acts are neutral.

So this universal ethic does not come from any culture, but something more universal, which is the human nature. The two aspects to human nature which philosopher John Locke explained is independence and equality.This state of human nature has a law of nature to govern itself which obliges everyone, which teaches everyone should be equal and independent, and no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty, or possessions. This has been humanity's neverending struggle to accomplish. Only when all of humanity recognizes the existence of the universal ethic and applies it to personal and social life will there be universal justice, peace, and harmony.

I've just been talking to one of my colleagues, not on this subject but about her trip to Poland. It made me think about those who have doubts about 'evil'. I think one word covers the validity of it.

Auschwitz. The place itself could be classed as Evil as a point on Earth. If Evil doesn't technically exist, how can a place like this exist? Just a point worth considering.

reply to post by Nohup


ahahaha... The church said that God was on their side and God told them to defend him against the muslims, if God was mighty powerful then why would he need the church to defend him ? You might call the church is evil since they did all these terrible things in the name of god.

reply to post by Fuggle


oh sh&t thats my french bulldogs name (Fuggles) nice.

Why is it that whenever people are debating this they use such tame examples?
What if your mother got gang-raped in each orifice by a a group of thugs?
or what if you child was shot in the head by a stranger for no reason at all. Your child was sitting there, he had a shotgun, might as well shoot it to see what would happen. Such things do happen you know. Do you guys live in a bubble or something?

Umm I will admit I didn't read through all the replies but I know somebody has probably already posted something equal to this. I am in no way religious, all though I am a spiritual person who does believe in an afterlife and selfworth. That being said, is Murder not evil? Is raping a young child not evil? Is making thousands homeless not evil? I think your concept is personally awful and has no basis, our laws on gravity are flawed? Have you floated away today? The basis of good and evil, love and hate, is a unnatural experience, animals kill in the wild to only attain personally sustainence. Murder, which is usually more often then not pre-thought out, is an evil act, to take ones life for any reason is evil not becuase I say so becuase its unnatural, same thing with pedifelia and other hainess crimes. Unless you are an astrophysicist and can prove to me that murder and pedifelia are natural causes universe wide I suggest you find a different topic to mull over.

For those who argue that evil really isn't evil, but just the things certain people do because of what they ARE, let's say you're right. That still leaves us with the reality of the INFERIORITY of the ones who lean toward the Do Unto Others Precisely What You Would NOT Have Done Unto Yourself camp. Those types are far, FAR more into destruction than creation and have nothing real or substantive to offer. And they so coldly, so sociopathically - as though they're not even living beings - in no way give anything resembling a rat's arse about the future of humanity and planet Earth. Period. Hence: inferiority.

reply to post by Seiju


there are no laws to govern good or evil just like the laws that govern the universe?----------yes there are-------invisible laws just as powerfull as those that produce inertia/radiation/atoms/gases/thermodynamics/wind/magnetism/electricity/gravity------all invisible yet are ever present-----if a person takes a notion to start murdering others or stealing property this is breaking invisible laws that cause law abiding citizens to call in the police who will hunt you down and kill you if necessary--------just the same way as gravityand inertia kills if we break those laws-------jump off the golden gate bridge with no parachute and build up inertia------the sudden stop---usually everytime is an immediate death sentence on water that doesnt want to compress and is as hard as concrete for belly floppers.

Originally posted by Lokey13
I think your concept is personally awful and has no basis, our laws on gravity are flawed? Have you floated away today?

Yes, our theories on gravity are flawed because we dont have the full picture. We dont even know what gravity is besides just a name. Where does it come from? Its hard to be right when you only explain something halfway.

Second, people keep putting forth the "Golden Rule" but it is flawed. What if a guy comes up to me and begs me to blow his brains out. He doesnt tell you the reason why he wants you to he is just begging you. If you applied the gold rule would it be wrong? Would you want to kill yourself? Well, i guess this man just has to find someone else to kill him.