Knowledge or Messiah?

Knowing that I may stir some controversy in posting a hypothesis on the messiah question, I do so for an intelligent debate purpose and not for any other rage doomsday premises.
In today world global civilisation, it seems that individual spiritual freedom has been altered to give birth to a cacophony of half legitimacy that are all fighting, interacting, and dismissing one another.
It appears that more then ever today is the time for someone or something to broaden a practical and clear bulk of knowledge about our place in the spectrum of what we see and what we don’t see.
Because provable spiritual experience seem to be constant from individual to individual and from period to period, it is possible that all spirituality are entrenched in unfailing laws just like physic or any other discipline.
If and only if, someone or something discovers this law, would it be regarded as a messiah?
Or would it be regarded as a civil disturbance?
Because for sure this will be a very novel ideas which will bring a lot of discomfort to those that prevail in keeping every one ignorant about our true identity.
And of course because the majority of the world is so ingrained with religious dogma, does the contributor of this law would have to be cast in a saint mould?
Or would it be more sensible to experience what he has discover and tested for our self, and dismiss what ever personality he may have?

What will be important, the substance or the form?

kacou

I dont think i understand your question...

are you asking about a possible law that could determind all spiritual experiences origin?

what do you mean by "ingrained with religious dogma" and "cast in a saint mould" more specific please?

reply to post by Bluess


Yes you have understood a law that could explain the spiritual existence and the origin.

What I mean about engrained in religious dogma;
All religious faith has an idea about the messiah. This idea of messiah is usually link to a judgement day or retribution, but this idea have been proved to be non beneficial to human at large. It has always divided people instead of reunited every one. Just look at the Christian or the Muslim.
Cast in a saint mould is rhetoric for what kind of messiah people think they will expect.
The most famous one is the second coming of Jesus.

Kacou

reply to post by kacou


I most say that such a law would not be accepted by all religious people to start with.
And that is the essence of spirituality, that it is free, it cannot be explained, it has no boundries, you can always make another religion to believe in.

So no matter what law anyone could come up with, it would be though apon like a"new" religion and gather its followers.

So to answer your question: What will be important, the substance or the form?

No matter the substance or form, it will divide people into believers and non-believers like religion always have and always will.

a-side-step:

It is in our history to make events and experiences into beliefs, be it religion ,science or knowledge.

But religion has a dark side to it, and that is control, it is always based on preachers of a belief, and followers of the preachings.
And in my point of view it is dividing people by definition.

who is the most spiritual believer? the priest or the follower?
who is the fool? the fool himself or his followers?

I believe that all people are equaly worth the same, it is what we accomplish and how we interact, that is the essence, not our beliefs.

So if I where to say to you, that you are already free and saved, would you give up your beliefs? no

reply to post by Bluess


I like your input; it is balanced but in doughtily empty of hope for the religious aspect. This can only bring the matter of messiah to a very deep individual experience where by instead of waiting or expecting someone or something, we should look in our self to save ourselves or to comprehend our own spirituality.
If this is your point, I guess you have an excellent point.

Kacou

Originally posted by kacou
In today world global civilization, it seems that individual spiritual freedom has been altered to give birth to a cacophony of half legitimacy that are all fighting, interacting, and dismissing one another.

It seems to me more like egoistic competitions disguised as ‘spiritual freedom.’ For, IMO, those who enjoy, privately and scattered amidst the din, a truly free spirit have no need to strive for some particular coveted golden ring.

But you do have a point – it is the chaos that inhibits most people from feeling free, somehow, to be themselves without fears and anxieties that need to be expressed outwardly; usually in a negatively interactive fashion.

Yet, eventually, there must arise a spirit of selflessness that is selfless to the point of not being able to enjoy their own spiritual freedom knowing that it could be so much more to other people if it were shared rather than just quietly lived out in anonymity. That is essentially the philosophy of the bodhisattva.

It appears that more then ever today is the time for someone or something to broaden a practical and clear bulk of knowledge about our place in the spectrum of what we see and what we don’t see.

Yes, I think so, too. It isn’t really that mankind is lacking anything in particular except some sort of organization or initial leadership (note I said LEADER not RULER) to get the ball rolling. More of an actual living example of an ordinary person who might also be able to provide some important answers at the outset to get humanity in gear as far as tapping into our collective pool of ‘MIND’ in which all answers can be found.

It does seem to be that the perennial shepherd/sheep allegory is a valid one – it isn’t about domination but rather guidance. And just for the time required, if you know what I mean.

Because provable spiritual experience seem to be constant from individual to individual and from period to period, it is possible that all spirituality are entrenched in unfailing laws just like physic or any other discipline.

Personally, from my own studying/research and personal experience, I truly believe that ‘metaphysics’ is a good word to describe what I perceive as a truly legitimate defined field of study which pretty much encompasses ‘reality’ – both seen and unseen. Actually, it CONNECTS the two – it makes sense of all the mysteries and it is logical and scientific in nature, the way I see it.

It’s beyond quantum physics although that is a VERY big part of it. It is actually almost simple in its logic, once perspective is clear past a certain point. The biggest problem, from what I see, is getting most people to get past that ‘certain point.’ And one of the main reasons for that is our propensity to label everything and then judge by our labels – basically prejudice ourselves from opportunity and new knowledge.

If and only if, someone or something discovers this law, would it be regarded as a messiah?
Or would it be regarded as a civil disturbance?

Yes. To both. And then some. Or maybe even a whole bunch ‘then some.’

It can not do anything BUT tip over the apple-cart of human society…but we can surely but it back right again, soon enough.

The thing is…it MUST be. Either it must be or we will cease to be. We need to change our course of action – not so much as far as a drastic change in total existence but more or less just a purposeful yet not-too-complicated adjustment in both our attitudes and our habitual thought-processes.

I hope that makes sense. It seems to, when I type…but then I think, GEE that’s awfully muddy.

Because for sure this will be a very novel ideas which will bring a lot of discomfort to those that prevail in keeping every one ignorant about our true identity.

Exactly. Expected and unpleasant for many and maybe even insufferable (temporarily) for some…but what might be called a ‘necessary evil.’

And of course because the majority of the world is so ingrained with religious dogma, does the contributor of this law would have to be cast in a saint mould?

Well, I can answer this is in two ways.

First – my personal opinion is that no ‘saint’ was ever born as anything other than a totally dedicated-to-debauchery ‘sinner.’ Just like the Rolling Stones say in ‘Sympathy for the Devil.’

Which brings me to the second form of my answer:
I think it would be far more effective just to have ‘GOD’s left-hand-man’ come directly and make short work of the whole deal.

If you dig what I’m saying.

I’m serious.

My personal definition of 'saintliness' is 'selflessness.' Nothing more or less. Just being about others rather than self.

If there is anything that works hardest toward the evil that comes from the hearts of men, it is religion and all its dogma. Totally precluding and discouraging anyone’s attempt at individual pursuit of spirituality and nirvana/salvation/enlightenment/etc.

To the historic point, in fact, as we all well know of crucifixions, human bonfires, and the even more horrendous practice of ‘drawn and quartered.’

Or would it be more sensible to experience what he has discover and tested for our self, and dismiss what ever personality he may have?

I have come to the personal conclusion that personality is a far different thing than individuality – personality seems to be more of a mask that we wear for others (and more so ourselves, probably) to hide behind – in both our perfections as well as our flaws. Individuality is just who we are. No excuses and no baggage. As in: I AM WHAT I AM…and that’s all that I am.

No doubt the ‘cult of personality’ will play a part in the whole picture but maybe, in a way, that is an essential part of the beginning. There must be some sort of following but not of persona but of example – of character and of demonstration. The ‘cult of personality’ would die a natural death, I think, due to the humility of the soul serving as the impetus. Because it wouldn’t be about THEM but about ALL OF US.

It’s never been like that, yet. Those that DID possess such a rare quality were usually summarily disposed of as soon as the society in which they lived perceived a threat to the status quo. Or else ignored, shunned, or otherwise effectively discredited or silenced.

The only difference that I see, in our present time and situation, compared to the past, is that we are truly becoming a ‘global village’ instead of imperialistic societies and also because I think mankind, as a whole, in general, is just READY for a change. Maybe we don’t manifest it but in our hearts, we are. We know WE MUST change…we just don’t know how….yet.

But when the student is ready, the teacher will come. I think that applies to the world as well as to the individual.

What will be important, the substance or the form?

kacou

Well, the substance – and yet the form, too – but the form will be human. So that is a given. But it is the substance of the motivation behind the human as well as what they will have to share and give.

Originally posted by kacou

If and only if, someone or something discovers this law, would it be regarded as a messiah?
Or would it be regarded as a civil disturbance?

it seems your looking for an Absolute...
any 'Law' sure wouldn't be universally recognized as such.

i would say some astounding revelation as to what makes mans'
spiritual aspect tick would not be seen as a messianic coming
nor a civil/scoial disturbance...instead

any new 'law' or 'truth' being revealed then accepted by most everyone would be more like that Elusive 'Paradigm Shift'
we are all being smothered with by book mongers dealing in the 2012
industry.


just a pragmatist at this point of a existential life journey

I can not imagine following a law or waiting for a Messiah to find spiritual fulfillment.

Is just like been restricted and waiting for something that actually is a great possibility that it will never materialize.

In our limited and short life span can we actually wait for that law and Messiah to happen?

Am not looking for absolute law of existence.
I am instead reflecting in what have past and what may become.
For example, we have seen many religions were in the beginning anchored profoundly with a humanitarian agenda conducted by compassion and common sense. And then deceived the root ideas and become the tyrannical agenda that they in the first place where confronting.
Where by religion have found comfort in using any means to reach the goal.
It doesn’t matter how liberating or noble the goal could be, the result will incur in the means to reflect the goal.
That is the way goals can create some of the most repressive institution.

kacou

reply to post by marg6043


You maybe not waiting for any thing of this matter, but I can assure you that great majority of people are in this world…sad but true.
And the saddest of all is that they may take great number with them if a messiah has been declared find.

kacou

Well you are forgetting that power corrupts people, in many instances even the softest at hart may find very difficult to come to power avoiding corruption that deviates the mind from the goal.

Religious institutions do many good deeds around for the less fortunate but we can not deny that institutionalized religion is big business no only on soul fishing but money fishing as well.

reply to post by queenannie38


Thank you for replying to my thread.
I appreciate your comment.
I have no much time because time accelerates, to me any way. I have proof:
I travel 595 millions miles around the sun every year at a speed of 66000miles per hour. At the same time, I am rotating around the galaxy. The galaxy is travelling endlessly through space and is pilling me along with it.
Ok now that I have rest my humour I can tell you about an idea of when and how the messiah will show up:
When he will show up? He is already here and now, we have met him several time and also interacted with him. He has never left us or died for any reason. The messiah is us and every one. The past prophets seem to have all failed in they mission to rescue human spirituality, and again if you think about it they have not failed in one point. The point is that all spiritual teachers have laid the question before us. What are we and where we come from? My idea is that the spirit of the messiah is with us and all a round us.
When millions of people will wait for some entity to show up as a messiah (to extremist and neo-extremist; Hitler was a messiah, to military warlord Napoleon was also a messiah), other will for sure grasp the opportunity that have been secure by past and present wise man, and seek in their depth of their spiritual core the answers that can only be apply to one individual a lone. Therefore waiting for the messiah is waiting to be protected against other ideas or philosophy. If a person wants to be rescue by other (messiahs), then an inevitable clash with other will happen. Because it is imperative that thus seeking a spiritual recovery will only do so in looking deep inside of themselves instead of up to someone.
Be your own slave and master to guide your self. Don’t wait for any one to do the job for you, you have all you need to act.

kacou