Due to the security situation New Zealand may sent more troops to Afghanistan

Joint Forces Commander Major General Rhys Jones said yesterday the threat in Bamyan province was increasing, with a greater risk of suicide bombings and attacks on infrastructure.

The Government confirmed last night that Taliban activity was increasing, and that if the Defence Force needed reinforcements its wish would probably be granted.

General Jones said the instability could prompt a "changing role, from human assistance to security and stability". The Government said that would be considered by the Cabinet

Source

I have nothing against our troops who are serving in a distance land but I do have to question the wisdom of the NZ government.
When you give solders such a limited mandate how can one expect security situation not to deteriorate ?
The enemy knows full we that NZ troops wont actively take measures to prevent infiltration one of the hall marks of insurgency warfare.

It is time for the gloves to come off it doesn't make much sense to hold off much longer before increasing the number of troops and giving them a mandate to put some pressure back on the enemy. Other wise the security situation will just continue deteriorate.

Here is a related story .

The improvised explosive device (IED) exploded on the flank of the patrol, Army spokesman Captain Zac Prendergast told Fairfax Media.

"The statement 'very lucky' does come to mind," he said.

"The crater that was created by this device was about 700 mm by about 300 mm deep. It could have been a lot worse."

Source
Audio

A NZ patrol has had encounter with an IED. I do have to wonder if this sort of thing could have been avoided if the troops didn't have such limited mandate . Surely such limited mandate can not remain because it is vital that enemy infiltration be prevented.

We may even see a return to the sort of methods that were used in Vietnam by Anzac forces in Vietnam that is weeding out the enemy while fighting the hearts and minds battle . Both the NZ and Australian SAS saw service in Vietnam . Although unless they are lying the NZ government is keeping the NZSAS out of the conflict in Afghanistan.

As an ex-pat Kiwi, I am appalled at this news. There is no War Of Terror affecting New Zealand. We should stay out. Sending more troops is morally wrong. It is not our war. No more sacrificing of New Zealand lives in foreign lands, remember the legacy of the Vietnam war? I certainly do!

Deessell I couldn't disagree more . Both 9-11 and the Bail bombings claimed the lives of kiwis . It would be something beyond foolish it let Afghanistan become a terrorist haven once more . The people of Afghanistan want democracy and coalition forces are still welcome in that country now it is just a matter of defeating the enemy. Of course it would help if elements of Nato and countries like NZ were willing to put there troops in a combat role.

Iraq has more similarities to Vietnam then the war in Afghanistan. In Iraq local security/military forces can be unreliable just like some South Vietnam forces were. Afghanistan is a very differnt story the country doesn't suffer from the ethnic warfare . Instead the main problems are a lack of infrastructure an insufficient forces at the front line.

Yes, but the whole geographical area is a cluster furk, if you know what I mean. We shouldn't be going into other countries in the name of....

I will never support the governments decision. I understand that Afghanistan has the opium and Iraq has the oil.

Not in my name.

reply to post by xpert11

I do have to question the wisdom of the NZ government [putting our soldiers in harms way]. When you give solders such a limited mandate how can one expect security situation not to deteriorate? The enemy knows full we that NZ troops wont actively take measures to prevent infiltration one of the hall marks of insurgency warfare. It is time for the gloves to come off it doesn't make much sense to hold off much longer before increasing the number of troops and giving them a mandate to put some pressure back on the enemy. Other wise the security situation will just continue deteriorate.

A NZ patrol has had encounter with an IED. I do have to wonder if this sort of thing could have been avoided if the troops didn't have such limited mandate . Surely such limited mandate can not remain because it is vital that enemy infiltration be prevented. We may even see a return to the sort of methods that were used in Vietnam , ,

That’s a strong advocacy of violence, Mr X11. NZ sends its young Christian men 11,000 km (8,000 mi) north to an ardently Muslim semi-nomadic country mostly of mountains and deep valleys and landlocked to boot, on a (fools?) errand to “Win The Hearts and Minds” of the indigenous personnel. (American lingo for the people who live there). That there is resistance and resentment from the locals should come as no surprise.

For example, how many NZ-landers speak the local tongue, or are respectfully conversant with Islam? See Note 1. So what are you going to "teach" them they want to know? How democracy will make goat herding easier or better? Or that Jesus saves? I dunno. Did the Afghani send a delegation to Wellington asking for teachers?

As I recall - vaguely I admit - the US originally founded the Taliban as a united front to fight the USSR when it invaded Afghan. That dumb Soviet move was justified as supporting a weak pro Commie government. Was it ever worth the cost to the Soviets? Was it just a mistake? A miscalculation at the highest levels? I don't know but I do believe it was the straw that broke the Soviet economy's back.

After the Nine Eleven Event, our CIA was given the assignment of ferreting out Osama bin Laden from his sanctuary in Afghan. We sent every agent we had who could speak the lingo or knew the terrain - about 40 men - in by parachute and armed with $100,000,000.00 in cash and liberated AK47s. Within a month’s time, they had resurrected or reconstituted the Northern Alliance and were ready to topple the Taliban regime.

They called for the Army’s SOF - Special Operations Forces. The tough guys. Department of Defense types. But Rumsfeld said NO, not until you, George Tenant of the CIA, sign over the prosecution of the war to ME. It took 30 days arguing in W-DC before VP Cheney ordered Tenant OUT and Rumsfeld IN. Where was Bush43? The self-described Decider. He was still trying to get it straight - was it the “tally whackers” or the “tally band?” George W thought it sounded to him much like an old acid rock group from Austin!

Huge promises were made in Afghan. None of them were fully kept. Hamid Karzi, our man in Kabul, is a nice enough guy. BUT he, like Pakistan’s Pervez Musharraf, our man in Islamabad, lacks popular support. Both men are seen as puppets of W-DC. Which of course, they are. (As is also Nouri Maliki our man in Baghdad and he too lacks popular support. For the same reason.)

Which is also why the NZ types - you look too much like Americans to an Afghani - cannot hope to win the hearts and minds of the Afghan people. "There is but one God, Allah, and Mohammad is his Prophet!" Those are the opening words to the hearts and minds of those people. Can your NZ boys sell that? If not, then what? About all the locals want to know now is how to cultivate more poppy.

Euro types are the enemy! Starting with the Brits in the 1700s. Local collaborators are easy to find when you hand out money endlessly. But when you stop the money or leave the place, your influence is over! Remember Norway’s Quisling? And Vichy France’s Petan? Say hello Karzi and Musharraf. (And Maliki).

Whether the two men are personally involved in the great thievery that goes with American “influence” in foreign countries of the 3rd world type, I do not know, but I am sure the entourage around them are stuffing their pockets full with American dollars which we over here are told is going to “help the people.”

Unless the NZ Army knows something about winning the Vietnam War they kept from us, they will get the same outcome in Afghan we got in Vietnam.


Note 1. Languages in Afghan. Pashto, shared with Pakistan, is spoken by 50% of the population. Dari (Persian) or Dari Persian is the official name for the Persian language spoken in public and legal documents in Afghanistan. It is also called "Fa-rsi." Farsi (Dari) is spoken by 40% of the population. It is spoken in the northern and western parts and the capital, Kabul. The language’s name was officially changed from Farsi to Dari due to political reasons in 1964.

Uzbek is spoken by 9% of population. About 30 other dialects or languages are spoken in Afghan. Most Afghanis are bi-lingual. English is spoken among the educated upper class and the top military. The elites. www.afghan-network.net...

[edit on 3/31/2008 by donwhite]

reply to post by xpert11

We may even see a return to the sort of methods that were used in Vietnam by Anzac forces in weeding out the enemy while fighting the hearts and minds battle. Both the NZ and Australian SAS saw service in Vietnam. Although unless they are lying the NZ government is keeping the NZSAS out of the conflict in Afghanistan.

I would not say the NZ Government is LYING, but as I have pointed out in regard to the exhausting campaigning going on up here, NO politician can tell the TRUTH all the time and win or keep office. Many if not most political decisions require inputs from multiple sources often with conflicting claims. Ultimately someone wins and others lose. In a democracy, if the decision making process is sufficiently transparent and if the outcome reasonable enough to be understood if not agreed to, the losers take their licks and wait until next time. In a non-democratic setting, raw force may take the place of open debate.

Aside: “Despite pledging to conduct negotiations on the state spending plan in public, House and Senate budget negotiators reverted to a closed-door summit Sunday as their deadline loomed.” Kentucky's newly elected Democratic governor replacing the corrupt Republican governor is having to deal with Republican controlled State Legislature. Neither side wants the public to see the deals being made. “I’ll give you that bridge if you’ll give me this road.” KY has 105,000 sq km and 4.1 million people.

From Vietnam to Iraq. 6,100 km (3,800 mi.) as the crow flies. The 10,000 Days War Of Liberation. 1945-1975. French Indochina was formed in October 1887 from Annam, Tonkin, and Cochin China which three together form modern Vietnam. The Kingdoms of Cambodia and Laos was added after the Franco-Siamese War of 1893. (Today’s Thailand). The federation lasted until 1954. The French retained the local rulers in power. They were the Emperor of Vietnam, King of Cambodia and King of Luang Prabang (Laos). France however gathered all the real power in its hands, with the local rulers acting only as figureheads.

In late 1940, the newly created Nazi puppet regime of Vichy France, acceded to Japan's demands for military access to Tonkin (Northern Vietnam). This gave Japan access to China in the Second Sino-Japanese War. This was also part of Japan's Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere. The Japanese kept the local bureaucracy and leadership in place to run French Indochina now on its behalf. Despite having once abdicated the French tried to re-instate Emperor Bao Dai over Vietnam. But in 1954, the French were defeated at the Battle of Dien Bien Phu. Dates and history from Wikipedia.

By 1956, President Eisenhower had sent in 700+ MAG - Military Advisory Group - soldiers to assist the hastily conjured government of a new Republic of South Vietnam. RVN. By the time JFK took office - 1961 - that number had grown to 2,000. South Vietnam had become the shelter for 5%-10% of Vietnamese who had collaborated with either France or Japan before 1945.

With the arrival of the US, the bankrupt RVN became for them a CASH COW. These are the people I call lackeys. They were the government we supported (mindlessly) until 1974, when we finally evacuated. South Vietnam collapsed in 1975 as we flew out of Saigon via helicopters off the roof of the US Embassy. We left behind about 10,000 Vietnamese who had worked for the US Government.

Historical Backtracking. When did the shooting start? In 1962, JFK authorized the US Forces to take preemptive action in “self defense” - an oxymoron? By 1968, we had 550,000 men in and around Vietnam. We had sustained about 35,000 KIA. Halliburton - then Brown, Kellogg and Root - but still a Texas oil field company - say Hello LBJ - got rich digging out the Cam Ran Bay Port for the massive US logistical operations. It was then the largest man-made harbor on the planet.

Betrayal. Despite running on an implied promise to end the Vietnam War promptly, Nixon barely won the race - thanks much to Mayor Daley of Chicago - and instead of ending the war as the voters authorized, he continued it for 6 more years! And Nixon added another 25,000 KIA not to mention billions of dollars in wasted money.

Facts. Afghan, at nearly 250,000 square miles is about the size of Texas. It has 32 million people per the CIA in its 2007 estimate. Vietnam OTOH, has 125,000 square miles, a bit larger than Bill Richardson’s New Mexico. It has 85 million people per the CIA, in 2007 estimates. Vietnam is mostly Buddhist while Afghan is almost entirely Muslim. While Buddhists are generally regarded as being pacifistic, implacable US propaganda does not paint Islam as being so benign. Aren't there enough killers in all religions - well, the so-called Big 3 monotheist religions - to go around? Do we really need to try for more?

The current Bush43 government has repeatedly attempted to CREATE a WAR of Religions or a WAR of Cultures. Bush43, a late comer to End Time Evangelicalism - say that word fast 3 times if you can - wants to engage the Muslim World in The Battle of Armageddon! A/K/A World War 3. Bush43 once claimed ESP - extra sensory perceptions- when he said he “looked Putin in the eye” and told us he was a democrat! Small “d” or course. Then he has boasted he starts each day with Scripture readings. And etc. The effects of which excess religiosity seems to all be for naught?

If there was any lesson to be learned in Vietnam by the US and its allies, it ought to be that winning cross-culture hearts and minds is NOT easy if it is not impossible! You seem to be advocating authority for the NZ SAS to take up in Afghan what JFK approved for Vietnam, Mr X11. What say you?

Let me close this over-long response with a wonderful prayer one of Voltaire’s friends favored: “Oh God, if there be one, Save my soul, if I have one.”

[edit on 3/31/2008 by donwhite]

Where to start ?
All I am advocating is that NZ troops be able to take the steps necessary to provide security for the provincial reconstruction team. No one else is going to do it for them . Due to its geographical location the enemy is mostly likely to infiltrate the Bamyan province rather then having a active presence like in the south of the country. Well that

There are Muslim troops serving in Afghanistan its just that there not serving in the Bamyan province. link

I suspect that local translators would be used . Peoples lives improved by access to health care and the construction of basic infrastructure.
Rumsfeld was a complete and utter disaster need I say more ?
Karzi has a mandate from the Afghan people but that is another topic.

As for Kiwis looking to much like Americans that is just plain ignorance. Some of the locals may not be able to read but there not that stupid. As for poppy it is about the only product people can get to the market place . Construction of infrastructure would allow people to supply goods to urban areas.

If you want to know where the Americans forces went tactically wrong in Vietnam then do some research and read some accounts from Australian sources. What you will find should be a bit eye opening. U2U if you want something of a starting point in this matter.

You wont win over the locals if you blow up there village in order to save it. If you provide security and infrastructure you will have a good chance you will win over the locals who would have been other wise forced to work with the enemy.

reply to post by xpert11

Where to start? All I am advocating is that NZ troops be able to take the steps necessary to provide security for the provincial reconstruction team. No one else is going to do it for them. Due to its geographical location the enemy is mostly likely to infiltrate the Bamyan province rather then having a active presence like in the south of the country. Peoples lives improved by access to health care and the construction of basic infrastructure. Karzi has a mandate from the Afghan people but that is another topic.

Some of the locals may not be able to read but there not that stupid. As for poppy it is about the only product people can get to the market place. Construction of infrastructure would allow people to supply goods to urban areas.

OTOH, if Euro types went home, there would be no ENEMY to protect the people from. Like Iraq, we bit off more than we can chew. Guided by hubris and ideology. If it was not for you good folks down under and a few others from the EU or NATO, we’d have to abandon Afghan. Sort of like the Soviets did. I wrote a long time ago that Afghan has been OCCUPIED many times but it has NEVER been conquered. That record still holds.

Many of those Afghans are living in caves and in portable cowhide shelters much like their Mongol ancestors who rode under Genghis Khan. I’m mot sure what those people would trade us for a flushing toilet or w/c. As I wrote elsewhere, we need to stop this Top DOWN philosophy based on our jingoistic belief that we know what they need, and do some Bottom UP listening for a change. 40 years ago we were into drilling wells in Africa for clean water. Now the people who did not die of water borne diseases are starving to death. Wow!

There is no economy outside the cities that would be suitable for trade to the extent that you would need pave roads all over the country. IF that is what the Afghans want, then YES, let us build roads where they want the roads.

The bottom line is this: We and our allies are attempting to FORCE a government of OUR choice on the Iraqi and Afghani. Neither people want that and so far we have failed. To justify our slaughter of those good folk we allege they are somehow connected to Osama bin Laden. But as we say here, in our AuH2O heart of hearts, we know we are lying to ourselves.

At present if the coalition withdrew from Afghanistan the Taliban would come back to power and the country would become a haven for terrorists. You are grossly underestimating the desire much of the population has for the freedom they have gained . If Afghans didn't want a democratic government they wouldn't have showed up at the polls. It is not unreasonable for people to support the likes of the construction of a new schools and so on rather then a return to Taliban.

Sorry Don I just cant fathom your logic on this one. It is true things would have been much better off if the forces and money that have been spend or used in Iraq had been used in Afghanistan. But that is another topic as is the validly of the war in Afghanistan.

reply to post by donwhite

At present if the coalition withdrew from Afghanistan the Taliban would come back to power and the country would become a haven for terrorists. You are grossly underestimating the desire much of the population has for the freedom they have gained. If Afghans didn't want a democratic government they wouldn't have showed up at the polls.

Voting and wanting Christian occupiers is not equivalent. As for “democracy” we - Euros and Afghans - are talking TWO different things. Apples and oranges. It took England from 1215 to the Glorious Revolution (1688) to achieve a voice for the common man. 450 years. I doubt that anyone on our team has made any serious effort to learn the “want list” of the ordinary Afghani. It is in the interest of our respective Governments to keep us taxpayers happy with the job they are doing. OK, I’ll let this end here.

It is not unreasonable for people to support the likes of the construction of a new schools and so on rather then a return to Taliban.

100s of millions of people in “undeveloped” countries go to school outdoors. All the more, a building is standard in “developed” countries but it is more important to us WHAT is taught to the children than where they are taught. Will we solicit the locals ideas on HOW to build a school building? Or will we do it along our own plans? What's good for us will work for you! OK, again, my point is that I have finally had my epiphany on top down versus bottom up and I see the shortfall of top down.

Sorry Don I just cant fathom your logic on this one. It is true things would have been much better off if the forces and money that have been spend or used in Iraq had been used in Afghanistan. But that is another topic as is the validly of the war in Afghanistan.

Well, you know I opposed the entire post Nine Eleven Event actions taken by the Bush43 administration. I can’t recall anything he did that I agreed with. He first belittled then insulted the United Nations. Republicans up here have always opposed the UN. He proclaimed himself Commander in Chief (for life) and he believed - nay believes - that he could take any action that in HIS view was necessary for the security of the United States. In secret numbers of SECRET Executive Orders. Hello Stalin! Waging war is a violation of the Laws of Nations except in self-defense. Aggression is specifically prohibited by the UN Charter which we not only wrote, but signed onto. Neo Cons reject that principle outright! Bush43 is the supreme Neo Con.

Observation. America cannot afford to wage a war on the disgruntled, disenfranchised we call terrorists in the form Bush43 set us upon. We totally ignore the ROOT causes of the understandable if not justifiable unrest that extremists convert into tacit if not real support for their prescription for change.

We cannot have peace in the Middle East until we end the Israeli Ethnic Cleansing of old Palestine. I see no moral difference in our killing 1000s of Iraqi civilians - and Afghani civilians - ostensibly while hunting down rebels or dissidents we prefer to call either insurgents or terrorists, than the acts of violence laid at the doorstep of Hamas and Hezbollah.

I support a free and independent (and secure) state of Israel sharing the old Palestine Mandate with the natives in a divided state. I am willing to ignore the “Right of Return.” I do wish we (America) would pay compensation to the Arabs whose property was illegally confiscated by the State of Israel. The “spoils of war” as they describe it. OTOH I am by no means a neo-Zionist whose goal as I interrupt it to be, means a land FREE of Arabs. Ethnic cleansing.

Peace? Israeli PM Ehud Olmert allowed new construction in East Jerusalem to begin even as he spoke with Sec. State Rice about moving the PEACE PROCESS FORWARD. She was asking for a halt in such construction. He and she must think we are all a bunch of dumb-asses.

We are already paying a price for our unhesitating support for the Holy Scripture’s Abrahamic Covenant granting the Holy Land to Abraham’s descendants. (I regard the story of Abraham as an old myth). We will continue to pay a heavy price as long as we keep it up. Regrettably IMO, about 65%-85% of Americans believe there will be a FINAL battle between GOOD and EVIL. At the end of which battle Jesus will sit on a literal throne in Jerusalem ruling over the earth for 1,000 years. It is very difficult (if not impossible) to make sound foreign policy when you have this kind of constituency.

By the bye, if you read the end time account in the book of Revelations, you will see that THE FAITHFUL will be rewarded by grants of cities, principalities and kingdoms to RULE over. Say Hello Mr X11, to Emperor Billy Graham of Oceania. Or James Dobson - multi-millionaire founder of Focus on the Family - who I denominate as the Pope of Colorado, may imagine himself as King of the Rockies! This is what we have to deal with up here. Real people, but as crazy as loons.

Like the Huck (Huckabee) who ran Mitt Romney out of the GOP primaries because Americans don’t like Mormons. For many Americans the First Amendment means THEIR religion is free to operate without restraint but YOURS is not! There is no more dangerous a bigot than a self-righteous religious bigot!

[edit on 4/1/2008 by donwhite]

Don if the Afghan people really thought it wasn't in there best interests to have coalition forces in the country they wouldn't have re elected Karzi . Your comments about kids going to school in the outdoors is a bit of a misdirection. Under the Taliban girls didn't even go to school period. As for input from the locals I cant see why it wouldn't be considered its not exactly like three story buildings are being constructed .

Don you also know that I disagree with you concerning the root cause of terrorism .

reply to post by xpert11

Don if the Afghan people really thought it wasn't in there best interests to have coalition forces in the country they wouldn't have re elected Karzi. Your comments about kids going to school in the outdoors is a bit of a misdirection. Under the Taliban girls didn't even go to school period.

OK for me on the girls going to school but OTOH really, how many will be walking down the Champs Elysees in their lifetimes? Forcing Western practices on them contrary to their religion is not necessarily how you win the hearts and minds of the indigenous personnel. Anywhere. Shucks, we are still waging a low impact war here over the unfairness of widespread gender discrimination.

Every study I have read about says the people want Security and Stability before any other social norm. For whatever reason(s) the British and to a lesser extent the French and Spanish, developed competent bureaucracies early on. When people’s basic needs are well met and honestly served, they tend to not care much about what goes on in the distant capital. It’s water, sewer, electricity, employment, security from violence and affordable access to the necessities of life that almost every person wants. Voting for unknown candidates living in far off places they they may never see, is way down their “want” list and is not on their “must have” list.

Don you know that I disagree with you concerning the root cause of terrorism.

Yes, I know. I have not had many converts, that I admit.

[edit on 4/2/2008 by donwhite]

Progress is small steps . Afghanistan is and will remain an Islamic country. You don't exactly see any bars and casinos being constructed in the Bamyan province. Clean drinking water and other basic services are a necessary rather then aspects of western culture.

Don do you also regard munitions clearing as part of spreading Western Culture ?

reply to post by xpert11

Progress is small steps. Afghanistan is and will remain an Islamic country. You don't exactly see any bars and casinos being constructed in the Bamyan province. Clean drinking water and other basic services are a necessary rather then aspects of western culture. Don do you also regard munitions clearing as part of spreading Western Culture?

I heard somewhere there are 80 million land mines planted around the world and that the US made 40 million of them. Land mines are very cheap to make. $40 will get you one that can kill 2-3 people or blow off feet and legs. Some of us Liberal types have tried to get a Congressional ban on the manufacture, use or deployment of additional land mimes but the Republicans have always blocked that. So should we engage in munitions clearing? Of course but I doubt we will.

For the most part we abandon items we no longer need or can use. It’s cheaper than retrieving and sorting and packing and shipping and storing. Western culture. A throwaway culture. I understand the people of Vietnam and Laos are still taking casualties from the ordinance we left behind. Life in the fast lane.

[edit on 4/2/2008 by donwhite]

"What it means is that there is no exclusively military solution to Afghanistan's problems. You need security to get development but you're not going to get development without security,"

Prime Minister Helen Clark has renewed her support for a multi-pronged strategy on Afghanistan, as Cabinet approves the deployment of an extra 18 troops to the troubled country

Source

We've been reviewing security there in recent months following a deterioration in the situation, like a rocket attack on a nearby town, increased criminal and drug trafficking elements, and last weekend an improvised explosive device targeted one of our patrols," Miss Clark said.

"We made the decision to increase our numbers prior to that because of our general concern about the spillover effect of instability in other provinces into the Bamyan area."

Source

AP thread

No real surprise here with either the amount of extra troops being deployed or the timing of the announcement. With there current mandate I don't see how NZDF personal will be able to prevent the insurgency from spilling over into the Bamyan province . There isnt much else I can say without repeating myself.

posted by xpert11
No real surprise here with either the amount of extra troops being deployed or the timing of the announcement. With there current mandate I don't see how NZDF personal will be able to prevent the insurgency from spilling over into the Bamyan province . There isn’t much else I can say without repeating myself.

I am pleased to see NZ (and others) joining in the NATO+ effort in Afghan. Not because I think they will succeed there - I don’t - how long have we been in Columbia? - but because I am happy to see the US quietly slipping back into the Family of Nations so gleefully abandoned by Geo W in 2001.

As we near the END of his 8 year wrecking job, he wants to leave the stage with a “good taste” in our mouths. Doubtless thinking we will remember him for that and forget the 7 ½ years of endless botching of his job. In other words, for Geo W it is now all - nay only - about HIS L E G A C Y. In fact, as I explained elsewhere, the SURGE he announced in late 2006 was the kick-off of his legacy hunt. A prank played on the world. Which worked. The prank, not the Surge.

I have read elsewhere that the US Army Counter-Insurgency Manual fixes the manpower requirement to pacify a counter-insurgency at 25 soldiers for each 1,000 civilians to be pacified. That comes to 625,000 in Iraq. We’ll never reach that level. We don’t have that many men (and women) on active duty. The active duty number is about 450,000 Army. Plus 150,000 USMC.

Afghanistan OTOH has 245,000 sq miles (650,000 sq km) and 32,000,000 people. That’s 32,000 X 25 or 800,000 soldiers. I don’t think we have 20,000 there right now all told, and the projected troop strength will probably level out at 30,000 or maybe 40,000 if the Iraq thing ends soon. Altogether. So who’s playing the joke and on whom is the joke being played? Undertaking a (deadly) task you know you cannot accomplish. Hmm?

Trivia: Did you know Afghanistan is the FIRST country, alphabetically, in the CIA World Factbook. Yes they spell it “factbook.” More Orwellian New Speak so much favored by our government. Rule: Never use a real word when a made up word is better. Hmm? Better for what? Obfuscation or elucidation?

Note: Iraq has 164,000 sq miles. (432,000 sq km.) Iraq is like California, Afghan is like Texas. All numbers from the Factbook. www.cia.gov...
Go there, if you have not already, it's worth the trip

PS. I predict this 2001-2009 era will become known historically as the "2nd Bush Hiatus." Like Dr. Tim Leary. Author of Turn On Tune In Drop Out as a manual for psychedelic experiences. Lysergic acid diethylamide. '___'.

[edit on 4/4/2008 by donwhite]

Laura Bush Visits NZ troops in Afghanistan

The First Lady of the United States has been given a warm Kiwi welcome by the New Zealand Provincial Reconstruction Team (NZPRT) at their Afghanistan base in in Bamyan Province yesterday.

Mrs Laura Bush was confronted with a full-on mid-morning haka before meeting NZPRT Commander Colonel Darryl Tracy and other members of the
Provincial Reconstruction Team.

Source

Article

Source

I thought that it was worth noting that Laura has visited more then just Kabul . There was a brief segment about this story on the TV news this is where a clip of a US news story was shown were the reporter noted that the secret service were a bit nervous when the Haka was being performed .

It is important the more secure pronvices are not neglected for both security reasons and the fact more basic infrastructure can be constructed .

reply to
post by xpert11

I thought that it was worth noting that Laura has visited more then just Kabul. There was a brief segment about this story on the TV news this is where a clip of a US news story was shown were the reporter noted that the secret service were a bit nervous when the Haka was being performed. It is important the more secure provinces are not neglected for both security reasons and the fact more basic infrastructure can be constructed.

When a defeated at the polls out-going Congressman does this, we call it a JUNKET. (An extravagant trip which accomplishes nothing). Also known as Wasting the Taxpayers’ Money. I call it what it really was, a publicity STUNT. A high profile, high cost Photo-Op. SHE flies off to Afghan while HE tours European capitals. The reality is the world would have been better off had the Supreme Court DESIGNATED Laura to be president in 2000. Our country did not have to go berserk after the Nine Eleven Event. That was entirely Geo W’s choice. But he is a man of very limited options. And we who had some gumption were unable to stop him. But alas, we cannot roll back time.

"The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it."
Omar Khayyam

So what’s Laura out to prove or to show? I feel sure without knowing that she “dropped” in out of the blue, with no prior notice she was on her way. I don’t know if she was given a form fitted bullet resistant vest or not. Goggles to wear. Ear plugs. I don’t know if 2 husky Secret Service men were “designated” to die in her place or not. Fall on the hand grenade syndrome. The last guy who did that got a CMO from Bush43 at the White House. Well, his surviving family got the CMO posthumously. Post humous. AFTER life [is gone].

If she flew on AF1, then it cost $80,000* an hour. Trivial when you are running a HALF Trillion dollar annual deficit. Her entourage would have numbered about 200. But they weren’t doing anything constructive anyway so that’s no immediate loss. The local military units had to clean up their area like the operating room of a modern hospital.

As a former Lower 4 who has been there and done that, we had to do that anytime we were “favored” with the visit - say visitation - of some dignitary, I can tell you we would prefer NOT to have had the honor. We whitewashed the bricks in the walkways, pulled the weeds and washed the inside of the buildings. We went to supply and got new flags to fly. What the heck good is that kind of inspection?

Now here’s a speech by a woman I have admired forever: “I know I have but the body of a weak and feeble woman; but I have the heart of a king, and of a king of England, too; and think foul scorn that Parma or Spain, or any prince of Europe, should dare to invade the borders of my realms: to which, rather than any dishonour should grow by me, I myself will take up arms; I myself will be your general, judge, and rewarder of every one of your virtues in the field . . ” The first Queen Elizabeth, exhorting her subjects at Tilbury Fort shortly before August 8, 1588.
www.famousquotes.me.uk...

*My estimate based on various references.

[edit on 6/9/2008 by donwhite]

Don I have to say that you are being overly harsh .
When Hillary was first lady did she not visit US troops in Bosnia ?
Bush legacy has already been sealed by the Iraq war and high petrol prices at the pump.

This next bit is more of an observation then any criticism. Even thou the Haka did make for an interesting news item I do wonder why Hillary didn't visit US troops instead . Don I am surprised that you didn't raise this point . Speaking as a cynic for a moment Hillary would have gained more PR out of visiting US troops. Still I am probably reading to much into all of this . The simplest answer is the most likely the Bamyan province was chosen for Laura visit due to the fact it is one of the secure provinces.