Best Submarines? , page 2

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reply posted on 7-2-2008 @ 04:14 AM by manson_322

Originally posted by Lociz
. The fact that it can dive to 6000 meters (stated) does not make it the best submarine. who are you going to chase down there? And with what. try to open one of your torp-tubes at that depht!
"said to be the most silence and hard to detect submarine in the russian Navy" They say that about every sub they launch, the sub isnt operative for years, so there is no way to say. This is a special purpose submarine, not one to choose in a military operation against other submarines/surface wessels. It could of course be good to land special forces, tap undersea cables or as a rescue sub etc but would pick an Akula every day if i was suposed to engage someone. They have yet to proove that this diesel/nuclear power plant is in any way practice in use and effective.

Losharik is designated for research, rescue and special military operations!
Besides, it has been under construction since 1988. The fact that it can dive to 6000 meters (stated) does not make it the best submarine. who are you going to chase down there? And with what. try to open one of your torp-tubes at that depht!

it became operational in 2003 , the source clearly states that

What on earth makes you think this is the best submarine out there? It is a relative small submarine, diesel and nuclear, which again makes makes not much space for weapons.

small sub ??? there have no specifications of the sub been given by Russian navy ...

The fact that it can dive to 6000 meters (stated) does not make it the best submarine. who are you going to chase down there? And with what. try to open one of your torp-tubes at that depht!

it can operate in the that depth , as no enemy torpedo will be operational at that depth

And with what. try to open one of your torp-tubes at that depht!

does not need to open its torpedo doors there , it can open its doors after rising to a 800 m depth, fire its torpedo or release its mine and then dive to deeper depths in magnitude of thousands (note: most torpedos can't operate at depths more than 900 m)

They say that about every sub they launch, the sub isnt operative for years, so there is no way to say.

special purpose means Spetsnaz in Russian ,
and its operational since 2003 ...

Founded in 1988 it became operational only in August 2003
en.wikipedia.org...

They say that about every sub they launch, the sub isnt operative for years, so there is no way to say.

they said this only about their Kilo SSKs

but would pick an Akula every day if i was suposed to engage someone.

knowing that USA has seawolfs and virginia Subs , I would pick a Losharik ...

reply posted on 7-2-2008 @ 10:47 AM by Lociz

but would pick an Akula every day if i was suposed to engage someone.

knowing that USA has seawolfs and virginia Subs , I would pick a Losharik ...

My mistake, I was thinking of the new sub B-90 Sarov they launched short time ago. (The Kilo-size diesel-nuclear submarine, also a experimental sub for testing of weapons and other special underwater equipment)

Anyway, the Losharik has been classed as an SSAN, an auxiliary nuclear submarine. You dont use an SSAN for engaging an potential enemy.
"The new submarine is designed for "special operations" and can also rescue crews of other submarines at great depths." I doubt very much it carry weapons, the specifications given does not makes sence using it for "standard SSN" operations..The fact that it can dive to 6000 meter also makes me certain it dont carry weapons, openings/hatches in a spherical shaped sub makes the hull to vulnerable for deep diving operations. Unless you place all your weapons outside the pressure hull. But, for tapping of communications cables on the sea floor of hostile waters, or delievering special forces to land etc such a sub can be very effective. And for doing such operations you need to be silent. That is also probably the reason for all specs to be so secret. Of course i can be wrong, but think about it and read the published info. Most likely an SSAN auxiliary sub for special operations, operations that are mostly carried out with a nearby SSN for protection, and therefore no need for own weapons It can then use the space available for all its tech equipment. A "normal" sub usualy dont have much space left for such equipment.

Again, sorry for my misunderstanding in my last post, was talking about another sub.

[edit on 7-2-2008 by Lociz]

[edit on 7-2-2008 by Lociz]

reply posted on 7-2-2008 @ 11:16 AM by manson_322

reply to post by Lociz

in the losharik the spherical inner hulls are hidden inside a conventional submarine hull ....
while some sources seem to classidy it as an SSAN ...
also , heres the classification of subs i found of the erstwhile soviet/russian navy on Pavel Podvig's website:

modern Russian nuclear submersible fleet, consists of 5 types of the subs:

a) SSBNs (Project 667 Kalmar / Delta III, Project 667 Delphin / Delta IV, Project 941 Akula / Typhoon)
b) SSNs of 'aircraft-carrier-killer' class (Project 949 Granat / Oscar I, Project 949A Antei / Oscar II, Project 885 Yasen / Granay)
(note:in the west the aircraft carrier killer sub oscar is known as SSGN)
c) SSNs of 'hunter-killer' class (Project 705 Alpha, Project 671 Victor I / Victor II, Project 971 Schuka / Akula)
d) SSNs of 'deep-water hunter-killer' class (Project 945 Sierra / Project 945А Sierra II, Zakaz 210 Losharik extra-deep sub)
e) SSNs of special projects (Project 1910 Kashalot / Uniform extra-small nuclear sub)

seems Losharik is classified as an extra deep SSN 'hunter killer' class

if its truly a hunter killer then
seems the best sub of the world =losharik , west has nothing as capable as this thing losharik, the one man army of the Russian navy

sorta a Rambo sub for Russian navy, i mean the ultimate sub

[edit on 7-2-2008 by manson_322]

[edit on 7-2-2008 by manson_322]

[edit on 7-2-2008 by manson_322]

reply posted on 7-2-2008 @ 02:02 PM by Lociz

Originally posted by manson_322
reply to post by Lociz

in the losharik the spherical inner hulls are hidden inside a conventional submarine hull ....
while some sources seem to classidy it as an SSAN ...
also , heres the classification of subs i found of the erstwhile soviet/russian navy on Pavel Podvig's website:

If you continue reading the rest of the post you can also see this comment: "As you can see, the (d) and (e) classes, should be considered as a 'small serie' ones, and mostly experimental, or special-task, ships"

modern Russian nuclear submersible fleet, consists of 5 types of the subs:

a) SSBNs (Project 667 Kalmar / Delta III, Project 667 Delphin / Delta IV, Project 941 Akula / Typhoon)
b) SSNs of 'aircraft-carrier-killer' class (Project 949 Granat / Oscar I, Project 949A Antei / Oscar II, Project 885 Yasen / Granay)
(note:in the west the aircraft carrier killer sub oscar is known as SSGN)
c) SSNs of 'hunter-killer' class (Project 705 Alpha, Project 671 Victor I / Victor II, Project 971 Schuka / Akula)

There is none operative Victor I/II class of subs left. Only a handful of Victor III's

d) SSNs of 'deep-water hunter-killer' class (Project 945 Sierra / Project 945А Sierra II, Zakaz 210 Losharik extra-deep sub)
e) SSNs of special projects (Project 1910 Kashalot / Uniform extra-small nuclear sub)

Uniform class has never been a SSN, it is a SSAN, and has no weapons..www.fas.org...

seems Losharik is classified as an extra deep SSN 'hunter killer' class

if its truly a hunter killer then
seems the best sub of the world =losharik , west has nothing as capable as this thing losharik, the one man army of the Russian navy

sorta a Rambo sub for Russian navy, i mean the ultimate sub

Still based on ONE comment in a forum, from a russian guy..If you look at this website you see the Losharik listed under "Other" together with Uniform/Paltus special submarines..: www.globalsecurity.org...

Stating that Losharik is the best submarine in the world etc etc, is just stupid. With so little specs published, you realy cant say anything.

[edit on 7-2-2008 by Lociz]

reply posted on 28-2-2008 @ 12:47 PM by oxillini

I guess if Losharik is the best sub in the Russian fleet, then The US Navy's NR-1 has been the best sub in the USN fleet since 1969.

reply posted on 28-2-2008 @ 02:56 PM by dave420

You're forgetting one thing - the boat is not the only part of the equation. Training plays a massive part. For example, during exercise "Silent Fury", one of Australia's Collins-class subs (diesel-electric) dodged 2 Destroyers, 2 Frigates, 1 Los Angeles-class submarine and 1 ASW helicopter, all from the US Navy. It snuck past them, and took photos of one of the destroyers, placing the destroyer firmy in torpedo range.

reply posted on 1-3-2008 @ 12:46 AM by goodshotpayne

the russians are always making outlandish claim about there tech. the typoon was a piece of crap, the bigger a sub the easier to find, ever heard od the k19 typical soviet/russian engineering, i believe the seawolf is the best, deep diving high speed and extremly quiet, the idea that SSKs are quieter than SSNs is technecally true, practcally however the difference is marginal, btw sub speeds are classified, its popular belief on sub speed, i personally believe true speed for the seawolf to be 40+kts

reply posted on 1-3-2008 @ 05:05 PM by orangetom1999

reply to post by xmotex

Best SSGN: the new modified Ohio SSGN strike subs. With room for 154 Tomahawks and a SEAL team, in one of the quietest nuclear boat classes ever deployed, nothing really comes close as a strike boat. The Oscar is better armed as a battlegroup killer, but for power projection the modified Ohios are hard to beat.

The Ohio class sound/noise quieting techniques and methods went into the construction of the Sea Wolf class with improvements/upgrades. The Sea Wolf quieting techniques and methods went into the construction and design of the Virginias class with improvements/upgrades.
All of these boats are natural circulation reactors. How quiet do you think they really are??

Remember something about all of todays boats going back to the WW1& WW2 Fleet type boats. They can change the way they operate. Shut down all unecessary equipment. Everything down to a bare minimum to keep the boat operating and crew breathing. This includes nuc boats.
If you had any idea as to the extent that they can change the way they emit or not emit noise you would probably be a bit surprised.

Also concerning these exercises ...they go in with some rules of engagement...how they must operate etc etc. We are not privy to this set of rules unless we are in the exercise. This is why I dont get all excited when I hear people boasting about what happens or the results of these games. Why?? Simply because when they announce the games and reasults they dont tell you what were the parameters.. the ROE. What I am saying is that some of the features of our boats are not for public knowlege even among our allies.
Why do you think they dont want to sell F 22s to Australia?? Do we want the world to know the full classified capabilitys of these airplanes?? If so just sell them to Australia or any other allied country. I am waiting for the US congress under pressure from the Lobbiests to change the rules on selling the F22s to foreign nations. Then you can kiss all these capabilities good bye.

I was priveleged last night to walk through the sheds where the Virginias are under construction. Beautiful!! Just Beautiful.

Some food for thought.

Out on the blue water...there are submarines and then there are "TARGETS." With new technologies this dogma is moving into brown water too.

Thanks,
Orangetom

[edit on 1-3-2008 by orangetom1999]

reply posted on 1-3-2008 @ 05:40 PM by xmotex

How quiet do you think they really are??

All I know is that they are supposed to be significantly quieter than the Los Angeles class attack boats, honestly.

Good post

reply posted on 26-7-2008 @ 05:25 AM by Wotan

No-one can really say what is the best sub etc etc as none are battle proven. Until there is a sub on sub battle, its all speculation.

The last true submarine attack was by HMS Conqueror in the Falklands War of 1982 when she sunk the Argentinian Navys' Cruiser Belgrano.

You also have to factor in that no navy worth their salt is going to reveal the 'true capability' of their subs to the general public.

reply posted on 22-3-2009 @ 04:24 PM by StonyJ

6000 meters????? 19,500 feet?????????? You are insane with your stats!

My boat only went down to 1800 ft, and there was a lot of creeking and groaning at THAT depth!!!!!!

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 11:24 AM by orangetom1999

When I first got to this yard...the olde timers related stories about our boats in WW2 where they went below design crush depth to get away.

Bulkheads were bent..doors where they had them, would not close, stairways were bent and out of alignment, piping failed Some eerie stories told by some of these olde timers.
Some of the most unusual tales had to do with what the crew saw when they were being depth charged. At first designers/engineers did not fully believe them until they constructed mockups of hull sectionis complete with equipment in them, and sunk them with cameras recording what was happening in certain compartments under depth charge. These are also some wild and eerie videos to watch.
Not your standard bill of fare.
They found out the sailors were not kiddiing at all.

What they learned out of this has changed the way all submarines are designed and constructed today.

Thanks,
Orangetom

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 12:19 PM by Marrr

Originally posted by orangetom1999

Some of the most unusual tales had to do with what the crew saw when they were being depth charged. At first designers/engineers did not fully believe them until they constructed mockups of hull sectionis complete with equipment in them, and sunk them with cameras recording what was happening in certain compartments under depth charge. These are also some wild and eerie videos to watch.
Not your standard bill of fare.
They found out the sailors were not kiddiing at all.

Would you expand on this a little please? Sounds intriguing.

reply posted on 11-11-2009 @ 01:04 AM by orangetom1999

reply to post by Marrr

The movie or film clip I saw was of a large diesel engine in a compartment. When the depth charge went off the hull moved in towards the diesel engine. The diesel was mounted to the hull with bolts, nuts, and Plate liners. The bolts came loose...nuts came off as did the liners. All of this in about a second of time. All these pieces went flying up into the air and loose along with alot of dust, debris, paint chips etc.
The generator then slid into the bulkhead where it impacted and everything shuddered including the camera which took all these pictures through a doorway.
A very very impressive video. I would not like to be in a compartment with so much stuff flying/moving about..including the diesel engine. These are very large diesel engines...not a small auto or tractor trailer diesel..but much much larger.

Nonetheless..it demonstrated that what these surviving sailors described to scientists and engineers was right on the mark.

Hope this helps,
Thanks,
Orangetom

[edit on 11-11-2009 by orangetom1999]

reply posted on 11-11-2009 @ 01:32 AM by ANNED

For silence no sub can beat the German U-31.

U 31 is powered by one diesel engine and an electric motor driven by nine fuel cells, making it virtually undetectable.
www.heatisonline.org...
www.powerpulse.net...

If you can not hear it its not there till you hear the torpedoes

[edit on 11-11-2009 by ANNED]

reply posted on 11-11-2009 @ 10:54 AM by orangetom1999

Originally posted by ANNED
For silence no sub can beat the German U-31.

U 31 is powered by one diesel engine and an electric motor driven by nine fuel cells, making it virtually undetectable.
www.heatisonline.org...
www.powerpulse.net...

If you can not hear it its not there till you hear the torpedoes

[edit on 11-11-2009 by ANNED]

You need to think this through ...a lot. There is a lot you are not told about the state of the art boats built today. A whole lot. This is not accidental.

Thanks,
Orangetom

reply posted on 22-11-2009 @ 03:07 PM by RWM88

U212.
Why? Well personally in my opinion it is a more innovative design, on paper it is the quietest and German's being German's...well history tells you their strive for perfect engineering and efficiency.

Nuclear power is expensive, old and relatively more dangerous compared to hydrogen.

Watch this video and decide for yourself.

www.youtube.com...

reply posted on 22-11-2009 @ 04:38 PM by truttseeker

I'm going to have to disagree with the U-212 being the best in the world. The idea of Hydrogen-Oxygen fuel is a good idea, and again rediculously quiet. However word on the street is a Seawolf at max speed is quieter than a Los Angeles class at pierside. Also saying that nuclear submarines "need" reactor coolant pumps is kind of untrue. Natural circulation reactors wouldnt persay NEED a reactor coolant pump.

reply posted on 23-11-2009 @ 12:05 AM by orangetom1999

Originally posted by RWM88
U212.
Why? Well personally in my opinion it is a more innovative design, on paper it is the quietest and German's being German's...well history tells you their strive for perfect engineering and efficiency.

Nuclear power is expensive, old and relatively more dangerous compared to hydrogen.

You too need to think this through ...alot. Nuclear submarines carry on board them ..bottles of Hydrogen. It is a dangerous and volitile gas. Special precautions are in place when bringing it on board.

Hydrogen is one of the most powerful molecules in existance. Think about it.

Truttseeker,

Also saying that nuclear submarines "need" reactor coolant pumps is kind of untrue. Natural circulation reactors wouldnt persay NEED a reactor coolant pump.

Well said..well said. Your on the ball here with this. Close enough.

Thanks,
Orangetom