This is an interesting assortment of documents relating to the period right after WWII. A rush was on by the U.S. forces to obtain any German
technological information ahead of both the Soviets and Allied nations. Anything and everything was considered, though special attention for a major
portion of the documents deals with the Horton Brothers.
There is a wealth of names and leads, and any researcher will need to spend days just noting names and locations of witnesses. There is far too much
to summarize, as there is a massive amount of data to be sifted through, much of it seemingly contradictory.
While there should be items of real value, there is a caveat on my part about all of this. Mostly what is presented is interviews (interrogations) of
Germans by an occupying army. These witnesses want to appear helpful and cooperative, and yet if they really only had rumors, then they used that, so
the factual data is sparse.
In point of fact, there are reported rumors here that the Hortons went the UK, to France where they were last known to be working in some complex, to
the U.S., and even to be turning out planes for the Russians. There is a great deal of confusion, and a reader gets the feeling that at times these
witnesses were telling whatever they thought the U.S. interrogators wanted to hear.
Very near the beginning of these documents is one unusual report of a UFO from Denmark, with little explanation. However, there seems to be photos of
some object. These photos (I doubt they are drawings) are shown next to a ruler, which indicates that this object was in the possession of the
military photographers.
The size, judging by the ruler, would mean that it was only a mere inches long. It is a teardrop shape, with a rough surface and an irregular head.
The photos are not very good, by todays standards. This was deemed important enough to have had photos taken from many angles and views, as if it were
the focus of an in depth study.
What struck me as remarkable is that there are modern photos that match these to a very great degree. Not only do these newer photos exist, but they
too are said to be part of a spacecraft. There is even a current discussion of the newer objects here on ATS at this time.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Is there a connection? I certainly have no idea at this point, but it does raise a lot of questions in my mind.
FOIA: Army CIC UFO Files Various Subjects Including "Horten Brothers - Flying Wing", page 1
privacy
Topic started on 17-12-2007 @ 09:40 AM by AboveTopSecret.com
ArmyCICUFOFiles.pdf
Army CIC UFO Files
This is a file consisting of investigations, reports, on various things including the Denmark UFO, German rocket development and the Horton Brothers Tailless aircraft.
Document date: 1111-11-11
Department: Army CIC
Author: Various
Document type: File
pages: 339
Archivist's Notes: This file is very diverse with a concentration of efforts in finding the Horten Brothers who were developing the flying wing for Germany during WWII, the search appeared frantic, a race so to speak, with the hopes of denying the Horten knowledge from falling into Soviet hands. There are reports of investigation, letters, including the Bernardy letter, speaking of spirits telling of the destruction of the US, A guide called the Air Intelligence Guide for Alleged Flying Saucer Type Aircraft, discussing the likelihood of Soviet using this new technology with nuclear powered propulsion, Soviet experiments in the arctic with the intention of opening a gap in the atmosphere to allow the use of the sun's rays as a weapon. This file also contains some photos which are hard to interpret, sketches of the Horten wing designs, and a sketch of a gyroscope flying saucer with some tech notes, most of the file is legible but there is plenty of pages which will yield little information. An interesting file from the Counter Intelligence Corps.
Army CIC UFO Files
This is a file consisting of investigations, reports, on various things including the Denmark UFO, German rocket development and the Horton Brothers Tailless aircraft.
Document date: 1111-11-11
Department: Army CIC
Author: Various
Document type: File
pages: 339
Archivist's Notes: This file is very diverse with a concentration of efforts in finding the Horten Brothers who were developing the flying wing for Germany during WWII, the search appeared frantic, a race so to speak, with the hopes of denying the Horten knowledge from falling into Soviet hands. There are reports of investigation, letters, including the Bernardy letter, speaking of spirits telling of the destruction of the US, A guide called the Air Intelligence Guide for Alleged Flying Saucer Type Aircraft, discussing the likelihood of Soviet using this new technology with nuclear powered propulsion, Soviet experiments in the arctic with the intention of opening a gap in the atmosphere to allow the use of the sun's rays as a weapon. This file also contains some photos which are hard to interpret, sketches of the Horten wing designs, and a sketch of a gyroscope flying saucer with some tech notes, most of the file is legible but there is plenty of pages which will yield little information. An interesting file from the Counter Intelligence Corps.
reply posted on 18-12-2007 @ 09:29 PM by Hal9000
Flying Saucer from Denmark
As described by others this document is full of several files and they are extremely interesting so I decided to give more detail and break them up into different posts. The document was a consolidation FOIA release on everything the Army had under the file name of “Flying Saucer” and released in 1998. This information comes from the CIC, or Counter Intelligence Corp, which was the main intelligence gathering agency after WW2, so these are all older files from the mid to late Fourties.
The first file CIC 202085, is labeled “Flying Saucer from Denmark”, and is some photographs of a metallic looking object or objects. What makes it special is that it looks amazingly close to a similar object that Bob White claims to have recovered from a UFO, which was a teardrop shape comprised mostly of aluminum and has very strange characteristics. See the link below for more information.
Unfortunately, there is no other information on the object in the document including what it is made of or how it was recovered. One thing is for sure; the government had it at one time, and maybe still does. In the first discussion linked below, there was a man that claimed to have worked on the object in the document years ago.
The next file number is CIC 198239 starting on page 14, and looks to be some listing of sightings under the title “Flying Saucer”. There isn’t any more information other than dates and locations.
There is a report on page 28 from someone claiming that his invention was the cause of all the flying saucer reports. The invention generated what he called “globular lightning”, but he was unable to demonstrate it because he was in jail.
Next post will cover the files on the Horten Brothers.
Related Discussions:
Recovered Piece Of UFO! Is This Irrefutable Evidence Of Alien Presence?
Man claims metal fragment came from UFO!
[edit on 12/18/2007 by Hal9000]
[edit on 12/18/2007 by Hal9000]
As described by others this document is full of several files and they are extremely interesting so I decided to give more detail and break them up into different posts. The document was a consolidation FOIA release on everything the Army had under the file name of “Flying Saucer” and released in 1998. This information comes from the CIC, or Counter Intelligence Corp, which was the main intelligence gathering agency after WW2, so these are all older files from the mid to late Fourties.
The first file CIC 202085, is labeled “Flying Saucer from Denmark”, and is some photographs of a metallic looking object or objects. What makes it special is that it looks amazingly close to a similar object that Bob White claims to have recovered from a UFO, which was a teardrop shape comprised mostly of aluminum and has very strange characteristics. See the link below for more information.
Unfortunately, there is no other information on the object in the document including what it is made of or how it was recovered. One thing is for sure; the government had it at one time, and maybe still does. In the first discussion linked below, there was a man that claimed to have worked on the object in the document years ago.
The next file number is CIC 198239 starting on page 14, and looks to be some listing of sightings under the title “Flying Saucer”. There isn’t any more information other than dates and locations.
There is a report on page 28 from someone claiming that his invention was the cause of all the flying saucer reports. The invention generated what he called “globular lightning”, but he was unable to demonstrate it because he was in jail.
Next post will cover the files on the Horten Brothers.
Related Discussions:
Recovered Piece Of UFO! Is This Irrefutable Evidence Of Alien Presence?
Man claims metal fragment came from UFO!
[edit on 12/18/2007 by Hal9000]
[edit on 12/18/2007 by Hal9000]
reply posted on 18-12-2007 @ 09:55 PM by Hal9000
Horten Brothers and the Flying Wing
The document then goes into the Horten Brothers starting on page 43, saying they have been located and interrogated. The files are in the reverse order according to the dates, so later reports expressed that they were still looking for them and asking other German engineers of their whereabouts after the war.
The fear was that a Flying Wing aircraft had been developed by the Horten Brothers and was possibly the reason for the flying saucer sightings, and worse yet that the Russians possibly had a working design from plans recovered at the end of the war. There are other files of other individuals like Wendel Fritz and Walter Ziegler that were interviewed because of possible connections to working on the Flying Wing airplane and whether they knew if the Russians were also working on a version of it.
Starting on page 62 is a translated document on the use of flaps on the wings of aircraft, with diagrams that very much resemble those on modern airliners.
Page 69 shows a very rough diagram of the Flying Wing aircraft, followed by more translated text of the flight characteristics.
File number 198239 started on page 80, which contains information on Ernst Heinkel of Heinkel Aircraft that also worked with Willy Messerschmidt.
Page 84 started a file on Egwin Leiber, another German Engineer.
Page 94 was a letter referring to “Operation Harass”, and the subjects were the Horton Brothers, but I didn’t see any other reference to it on other reports.
Other previous diagrams show the crescent wing design very similar to the modern B2 Bomber, but I like this diagram from page 96, of the parabolic version of the Flying Wing aircraft with rocket propulsion.
A report starting on page 126 summarized that the Germans had not built any flying saucer craft, but that the Horten Brothers were working on a parabolic flying wing design. The report said that models had been built and gives the progress that had been made on the design.
Another report on page 129 said the Horten Brothers were last known to be in Goettingen, Germany, which was in the British zone in the Fall of 1946 and there were rumors of them being kidnapped by the Russians. Again, these reports were in reverse order.
That is the bulk on the Horten Brothers, but there is more to come.
Related Articles:
Wikipedia Article on the Horten Brothers
[edit on 12/18/2007 by Hal9000]
The document then goes into the Horten Brothers starting on page 43, saying they have been located and interrogated. The files are in the reverse order according to the dates, so later reports expressed that they were still looking for them and asking other German engineers of their whereabouts after the war.
The fear was that a Flying Wing aircraft had been developed by the Horten Brothers and was possibly the reason for the flying saucer sightings, and worse yet that the Russians possibly had a working design from plans recovered at the end of the war. There are other files of other individuals like Wendel Fritz and Walter Ziegler that were interviewed because of possible connections to working on the Flying Wing airplane and whether they knew if the Russians were also working on a version of it.
Starting on page 62 is a translated document on the use of flaps on the wings of aircraft, with diagrams that very much resemble those on modern airliners.
Page 69 shows a very rough diagram of the Flying Wing aircraft, followed by more translated text of the flight characteristics.
File number 198239 started on page 80, which contains information on Ernst Heinkel of Heinkel Aircraft that also worked with Willy Messerschmidt.
Page 84 started a file on Egwin Leiber, another German Engineer.
Page 94 was a letter referring to “Operation Harass”, and the subjects were the Horton Brothers, but I didn’t see any other reference to it on other reports.
Other previous diagrams show the crescent wing design very similar to the modern B2 Bomber, but I like this diagram from page 96, of the parabolic version of the Flying Wing aircraft with rocket propulsion.
A report starting on page 126 summarized that the Germans had not built any flying saucer craft, but that the Horten Brothers were working on a parabolic flying wing design. The report said that models had been built and gives the progress that had been made on the design.
Another report on page 129 said the Horten Brothers were last known to be in Goettingen, Germany, which was in the British zone in the Fall of 1946 and there were rumors of them being kidnapped by the Russians. Again, these reports were in reverse order.
That is the bulk on the Horten Brothers, but there is more to come.
Related Articles:
Wikipedia Article on the Horten Brothers
[edit on 12/18/2007 by Hal9000]
reply posted on 19-12-2007 @ 08:57 PM by Hal9000
The Study of Flying Saucers by Air Material Command
The next section is still related to the Horten Brothers and is of several directives to locate and question German aircraft engineers and find out if any of the projects could explain the sightings of flying saucers. They are from Air Material Command and specifically state that they believe that something is being seen in the skies, which obviously would be seen as a threat. This is expressed in several letters, one dated October 1947 on page 144, had this interesting paragraph.
“2. For your information, the Air Material Command at WRIGHT FIELD is making a study of this subject and is constructing models to be tested in a wind tunnel. As a guide in constructing the models, descriptions from [various ?] persons who claimed to have sighted these objects were used. The Air Material Command is of the opinion that some sort of object, such as the flying saucer, did exist.”
Similar letters also name the Horten Brothers as subjects to be located and questioned, which obviously led to the previous reports.
On page 148 is a must see. Under the title “Alleged Flying Saucer Type Aircraft”, there is a list of flight characteristics as observed from credible witnesses. There is too much to reproduce, but the highlights are that they reflect light, with no sound, oval or disc shaped, have the ability to disappear and reappear, fly at high speeds and altitudes, fly in tight formation when more than one is present and have actions that indicate manual or remote control.
The last description is worth noting. “The craft appears to have the ability to out a clear path through clouds- width estimated to be one-half mile.” Incredibly, this sounds exactly like the recent Chicago O’Hare incident.
Related Discussion:
O'Hare Airport UFO Sighting -- UPDATE: Photos & Analysis
Still not even half way through this document yet.
The next section is still related to the Horten Brothers and is of several directives to locate and question German aircraft engineers and find out if any of the projects could explain the sightings of flying saucers. They are from Air Material Command and specifically state that they believe that something is being seen in the skies, which obviously would be seen as a threat. This is expressed in several letters, one dated October 1947 on page 144, had this interesting paragraph.
“2. For your information, the Air Material Command at WRIGHT FIELD is making a study of this subject and is constructing models to be tested in a wind tunnel. As a guide in constructing the models, descriptions from [various ?] persons who claimed to have sighted these objects were used. The Air Material Command is of the opinion that some sort of object, such as the flying saucer, did exist.”
Similar letters also name the Horten Brothers as subjects to be located and questioned, which obviously led to the previous reports.
On page 148 is a must see. Under the title “Alleged Flying Saucer Type Aircraft”, there is a list of flight characteristics as observed from credible witnesses. There is too much to reproduce, but the highlights are that they reflect light, with no sound, oval or disc shaped, have the ability to disappear and reappear, fly at high speeds and altitudes, fly in tight formation when more than one is present and have actions that indicate manual or remote control.
The last description is worth noting. “The craft appears to have the ability to out a clear path through clouds- width estimated to be one-half mile.” Incredibly, this sounds exactly like the recent Chicago O’Hare incident.
Related Discussion:
O'Hare Airport UFO Sighting -- UPDATE: Photos & Analysis
Still not even half way through this document yet.
reply posted on 21-12-2007 @ 09:49 PM by Hal9000
Russian Experiments Near Arctic Circle
The Dossier 198230 the Russian Experiments Near Arctic Circle began on Page 309. As JacKatMtn brought up earlier, a letter on Page 313 begins to explain the purpose of the investigation.
“One of the explanations for the “flying saucers” over the US is allegedly given to be due to Russian experiments near the Artic Circle in the area of the island [illegible] (New Land)”
It continues with a description of the experiment as opening a gap in the “electric atmosphere” to let in the ultra-violet rays from the sun in and “by means of instruments and glasses” the rays could be directed and used as a weapon.
According to the report, the electric device used to open the gap could possibly cause a “conglomeration” in the atmospheric layer that would become visible and be mistaken for a flying saucer.
My guess is that this was another claim that turned out to be false. I could be wrong and these may have been real experiments, but without more information it is hard to believe. Some would call this “disinformation” and is purposely put out to either divert attention from something else, or to waste resources investigating false claims. It is an effective tactic in the world of intelligence.
Further reading:
I did find one other reference to this subject posted on Project 1947 website under Ghost Rockets, but have no idea of the source of information.
The Dossier 198230 the Russian Experiments Near Arctic Circle began on Page 309. As JacKatMtn brought up earlier, a letter on Page 313 begins to explain the purpose of the investigation.
“One of the explanations for the “flying saucers” over the US is allegedly given to be due to Russian experiments near the Artic Circle in the area of the island [illegible] (New Land)”
It continues with a description of the experiment as opening a gap in the “electric atmosphere” to let in the ultra-violet rays from the sun in and “by means of instruments and glasses” the rays could be directed and used as a weapon.
According to the report, the electric device used to open the gap could possibly cause a “conglomeration” in the atmospheric layer that would become visible and be mistaken for a flying saucer.
My guess is that this was another claim that turned out to be false. I could be wrong and these may have been real experiments, but without more information it is hard to believe. Some would call this “disinformation” and is purposely put out to either divert attention from something else, or to waste resources investigating false claims. It is an effective tactic in the world of intelligence.
Further reading:
I did find one other reference to this subject posted on Project 1947 website under Ghost Rockets, but have no idea of the source of information.
12 Nov 47 - Frm AFOIR-DD to CG, USAF ATTN: Asst Chief of Staff A-1 SUBJ: Russian Experiments near the Arctic Circle - "With regard to your request in basic communication, the following comments are submitted: The Russian experiments on Nowaja Zemalaja are believed to be experiments in nuclear physics, especially concerned with cosmic rays...The earth's 'electronic atmosphere' (ionosphere) does absorb Actinic Rays (extreme ultra violet light) from the suns radiation. 'Roentgen Rays' (X-Rays) are not believed to be present to any appreciable extent in the sun's output. Focusing these actinic rays by any 'means of instruments and glasses' is not considered likely, as they are absorbed by practically all materials...The 'electronic atmosphere' is conventionally called the 'ionosphere'. Any energy which men might apply to de-ionize a 'gap' in this 'ionosphere' would have to equal or exceed the energy the sun applies to the same area. This energy would be exceedingly high, more than that consumed by a large electrified city...While this report may indicate a serious research project that is worthy of watching, the specific information and its purported explanation of 'saucers' are not considered worthy of any action at this time. FILED UNDER: 373.2 Winter Operations"
www.project1947.com...
reply posted on 22-12-2007 @ 08:38 AM by horsegiver
reply to post by Hal9000
A craft, just like the model you have shown there, flew over Sussex England around six or seven years ago, it was silver metallic in appearance and seamless. As it flew over, it's 'tail' seemed to flip from side to side, it was in broad daylight in the early part of the morning.
Regards,
Horsegiver.
A craft, just like the model you have shown there, flew over Sussex England around six or seven years ago, it was silver metallic in appearance and seamless. As it flew over, it's 'tail' seemed to flip from side to side, it was in broad daylight in the early part of the morning.
Regards,
Horsegiver.
reply posted on 22-12-2007 @ 10:51 AM by Hal9000
reply to post by horsegiver
That sounds like an interesting sighting. Did you see it yourself? If so, can you give more details?
The version of the Flying Wing that most people are familiar with is the delta wing which fit the description of the Kenneth Arnold UFO sighting which is obviously why the Horten Brothers became such an interest to the CIC and Air Materiel Command.
The Kenneth Arnold sighting was also the beginning of the UFO wave of the Forties.
Now compare both of those previous images to the modern B2 Stealth Bomber, which many believe has been the reason for some UFO sightings before it was made public.
I would agree that some sighting are of secret military aircraft, but that can't explain all of them.
That sounds like an interesting sighting. Did you see it yourself? If so, can you give more details?
The version of the Flying Wing that most people are familiar with is the delta wing which fit the description of the Kenneth Arnold UFO sighting which is obviously why the Horten Brothers became such an interest to the CIC and Air Materiel Command.
The Kenneth Arnold sighting was also the beginning of the UFO wave of the Forties.
Arnold described the objects' shape as reminiscent of crescents or flying wings, or as resembling a flat saucer, and described their erratic motion as resembling a saucer skipped across water; from this, the press quickly coining the new terms "flying saucer" and "flying disk" to describe such objects, many of which were reported within days after Arnold's sighting.
Wikipedia article on Kenneth Arnold
Now compare both of those previous images to the modern B2 Stealth Bomber, which many believe has been the reason for some UFO sightings before it was made public.
I would agree that some sighting are of secret military aircraft, but that can't explain all of them.
reply posted on 22-12-2007 @ 11:27 AM by horsegiver
reply to post by Hal9000
[more
There's not much more to tell really ,yes, I saw it as it flew over our house, my wife saw it too, it was the strange motion of the tail that drew our attention.
Interestingly, quite recently, I saw an item on display, listed as a 'sculpture', I think it was somewhere in New York, however I saved the photo. If you would like to see the photo I can only email it to you as I do not have enough points to allow me to post it on the site.
Regards,
Horsegiver.
[more
There's not much more to tell really ,yes, I saw it as it flew over our house, my wife saw it too, it was the strange motion of the tail that drew our attention.
Interestingly, quite recently, I saw an item on display, listed as a 'sculpture', I think it was somewhere in New York, however I saved the photo. If you would like to see the photo I can only email it to you as I do not have enough points to allow me to post it on the site.
Regards,
Horsegiver.
reply posted on 22-12-2007 @ 12:11 PM by horsegiver
reply to post by Hal9000
I have just found the photo, it can be seen on wirednewyork.com/art
The sculpture is by Mariko Mori and titled 'wave ufo' it is exactly like the one that flew over our house. I would venture to suggest that Mr Mori had seen it too!
Regards,
Horsegiver.
I have just found the photo, it can be seen on wirednewyork.com/art
The sculpture is by Mariko Mori and titled 'wave ufo' it is exactly like the one that flew over our house. I would venture to suggest that Mr Mori had seen it too!
Regards,
Horsegiver.
reply posted on 22-12-2007 @ 12:11 PM by horsegiver
reply to post by Hal9000
I have just found the photo, it can be seen on wirednewyork.com/art
The sculpture is by Mariko Mori and titled 'wave ufo' it is exactly like the one that flew over our house. I would venture to suggest that Mr Mori had seen it too!
Regards,
Horsegiver.
I have just found the photo, it can be seen on wirednewyork.com/art
The sculpture is by Mariko Mori and titled 'wave ufo' it is exactly like the one that flew over our house. I would venture to suggest that Mr Mori had seen it too!
Regards,
Horsegiver.
reply posted on 22-12-2007 @ 02:44 PM by Hal9000
reply to post by horsegiver
I thought you were referring to the parabolic flying wing diagram, and now I see you were referring to the metallic object in my first post. I don't think that was a model, but probably some piece of the UFO or maybe something that discharged from it. Who knows?
So the thing you saw was teardrop in shape and the tail moved? That sounds kind of like a fish swimming in water.
Here is a link to picture of the sculpture you mentioned.
That is interesting and looks like there is a window to look into where steps are leading up to it so people can look in.
Have any idea what is inside of it?
reply to post by NGC2736
According to Wikipedia the brothers split up and never came to the US.
You may find additional information at the bottom of the article under the sited sources.
I thought you were referring to the parabolic flying wing diagram, and now I see you were referring to the metallic object in my first post. I don't think that was a model, but probably some piece of the UFO or maybe something that discharged from it. Who knows?
So the thing you saw was teardrop in shape and the tail moved? That sounds kind of like a fish swimming in water.
Here is a link to picture of the sculpture you mentioned.
That is interesting and looks like there is a window to look into where steps are leading up to it so people can look in.
Have any idea what is inside of it?
reply to post by NGC2736
According to Wikipedia the brothers split up and never came to the US.
Post World War II
As the war ended, Reimar Horten emigrated to Argentina, where he continued designing and building sailplanes and one twin-engined flying wing transport, which was unsuccessful commercially. Walter remained in Germany after the war and became an officer in the post-war German Air Force Luftwaffe. Reimar died on his ranch in Argentina in 1994, while Walter died in Germany in 1998.
en.wikipedia.org...
You may find additional information at the bottom of the article under the sited sources.
