Originally posted by davesmith_au
Buddhasystem seems to have gone really quiet since someone threw a bit of math and a few peer-reviewed papers which seem to SUPPORT ES theory at him...
And I've not seen him respond to any of the papers mentioned...
Lost for sarcasm?
Cheers, Dave Smith.
Originally posted by poet1b
Do you know anything about signal generation and transmission.
Electrons and ions do travel together, in the same direction at the same time.
How do you think different frequencies travel through space, across airwaves, and over conducting lines at the same time?
Your argument on this point has no relevance.
Hannes Alfven, a Norwegian astrophysicist and cosmographer, whose earlier “academic burial” by the Relativists was somewhat reversed in 1970 by a Nobel Prize awarded to him for his development of magneto-hydrodynamics and his concept of frozen lines of magnetic force, a theory later repudiated in part by Alfven himself. Alfven had in a way replaced the word “ether” with “plasma”, and strongly disagreed with the Relativist’s misuse of mathematical theory, which he said ‘must always be the servant of physical understanding and close observation, rather than its master’.
He claimed giant currents through space, from the sun through the planets, along magnetic lines of force, actually transfer angular momentum to the planets. This discovery, together with his work on cosmic MHD events, places Alfven’s work very close to Tesla’s Dynamic Theory of Gravity.
Spicules Complete the Circuit
Colossal Birkeland currents conduct the Sun’s energy out into space but also pull electrons back into its poles.
On August 25, 1997, NASA launched the Advanced Composition Explorer (ACE) spacecraft carrying several high-resolution sensors and monitors designed to sample low-energy solar emissions, as well as high-energy particles arriving from intra-galactic space. From its location at LaGrange point L1 ACE has been analyzing the solar wind for the last ten years (almost a complete solar cycle), providing real-time “space weather” reports about geomagnetic storms.
Onboard the ACE satellite is the Solar Wind Electron Proton Alpha Monitor (SWEPAM) which is designed for direct scrutiny of coronal mass ejections (CME), interplanetary shockwaves and the detailed solar wind structure. Using advanced three-dimensional interpretive instrumentation, SWEPAM will coordinate its observations with the Ulysses probe, currently in polar orbit about the Sun at approximately 673,191,000 kilometers distance.One of the more unusual discoveries by the ACE/SWEPAM mission is an electron depletion in the solar wind due to “backstreaming electrons” flowing into the Sun from the surrounding space. These electrons are not in sync with the newest theories of the Sun’s activity, since the conveyance of electric charge is not considered apropos by astrophysicists. Consequently, they are left with a mystery when electrical activity presents itself in ways that they do not expect.
In the conventional view the Sun is accelerating electrons out and away from its surface through a process akin to amplified sound waves. Referred to as “p-modes”, they supposedly cause the energetic pulsations in the solar photosphere as they bounce around the Sun’s interior. When they travel upward through wave-guides called magnetic flux tubes they push the “hot gas” outward in giant structures called spicules. The spicules rise thousands of kilometers above the photosphere and carry the hot gasses (plasma) with them.
According to Bart De Pontieu and his colleagues at the Lockheed Martin Solar and Astrophysics Lab, the flux tubes are acoustic chambers focusing the “p-modes” and intensifying their sound energy. Some researchers have described this process in ways that allow them to see the Sun as a giant bell, ringing with vibratory energy. In such a theoretical model, how could sonic forces then influence a reflective process that draws negative electric charge back into the Sun? Thus the “mystery” surrounding the electron flow returning to the Sun from space.
In 1979, Ralph Juergens wrote, The Photosphere: Is it the Top or Bottom of the Phenomenon We Call the Sun? In that seminal work, he first proposed that solar spicules are actually the way that the Sun re-supplies its electrical potential and maintains its photospheric double layer. In the image at the top of the page, an unmistakable twist can be seen in the largest spicule, identifying it as a Birkeland filament. In past Thunderbolts Picture of the Day articles, we have noted that these towering filaments are responsible for the transmission of electrical energy throughout the Sun, the solar system and the galactic environment.
As Professor Don Scott, electrical engineer and author of The Electric Sky recently wrote in a private communication:
“In order to maintain the double layer above the photosphere that causes almost all the observed properties of the Sun, a certain ratio of the number of outgoing positive ions to the number of incoming electrons must exist. Quoting from Ralph Juergens: ‘In a much cited classical review paper of 1929, Irving Langmuir demonstrated that a double sheath (DL) is stable only when the current densities of the positive-ion and electron flows across [through] it are properly related. The ratio of the electron current into the tuft to the positive-ion current out of the tuft must equal the square root of the ion mass divided by the electron mass, which is to say: (electron current / ion current)^2 = ion mass / electron mass = 1836. Thus electron current / ion current = 43.’
“So there needs to be a lot more (43 times as many) electrons coming down through the DL as there are positive ions moving outward. Where do they come from?
“In that same year (1979) Earl Milton composed a paper titled, The Not So Stable Sun in which he wrote:
“‘In order to maintain a stable sheath between the photosphere and the corona a great many electrons must flow downward through the sheath for each ion which passes upward. The solar gas shows an increasing percentage of ionized-to-neutral atoms with altitude. Some of the rising neutral atoms become ionized by collision. Some fall back to the solar surface. The rising ions ascend into the corona where they become the solar wind. The descending gas flows back to the Sun between the granules - in these channels the electrical field is such that ions straying out from the sides of the photospheric tufts flow sunward, and hence the electrons flow outward. The presence of these channels is critical to the maintenance of the solar discharge…. Here we have an explanation for the spicules, huge fountains that spit electrons high into the corona.’
“In my (Don's) opinion this also explains what causes sunspots. Wherever the #p/#e ratio is not maintained, the DL collapses - the photospheric tufts disappear. So we get a spot in that location.”
By Stephen Smith
Originally posted by rizla
Check out the discussions on badastronomy. They destroy this subject. If someone can go on there and argue it effectively, then I'll start considering it.
Originally posted by StellarX
After the way Phil Plait ( i don't care to spell his name correctly) PERSONALLY closed the thread in which Michael Mozina attempted to defend his views on the sun having a physical surface i give little credence to what happens on that site. If anything phil really is a bad astronomer ( as they are supposed to be scientist who should in theory employ the scientific method) who runs a very bad astronomy site. If you want to see a truly interesting discussion of astronomy and physics in general feel free to head over to the Metaresearch forum where you can engage in discussion with a open minded astronomer with credentials that makes Phill's look positively pedestrian.
[edit on 6-3-2008 by StellarX]
The Nugget authors recently proposed a replacement model, inspired by earlier works that had been largely ignored, plus new solar observations and the realization that theories of the aurora borealis involved similar ideas.
The old thick-target model served its purpose well for three decades and, we believe, reached the end of its utility with the RHESSI and TRACE observations of the past solar maximum.
R. H. Stuewer noting that "... he remained an embittered outsider, winning little respect from other scientists even after he received the Nobel Prize..." and was often forced to publish his papers in obscure journals. Alfvén recalled:
When I describe the [plasma phenomena] according to this formulism most referees do not understand what I say and turn down my papers. With the referee system which rules US science today, this means that my papers are rarely accepted by the leading US journals.
 Observed electron distribution functions of the solar wind permanently exhibit three different components: a thermal core and a suprathermal halo, which are always present at all pitch angles, and a sharply magnetic field aligned strahl which is usually antisunward moving. Whereas Coulomb collisions can explain the relative isotropy of the core population, the origin of the halo population, and more specifically the origin of its sunward directed part, remains unknown. In this study we present the radial evolution of the electron velocity distribution functions in the fast solar wind between 0.3 and 1.5 AU. For this purpose we combine data measured separately by the Helios, Wind, and Ulysses spacecraft. We compute average distributions over distance and normalize them to 1 AU to remove the effects of the solar wind expansion. Then we model separately the core, halo, and strahl components to compute their relative number density or fraction of the total electron density. We observe that, while the core fractional density remains roughly constant with radial distance, the halo and strahl fractional densities vary in an opposite way. The relative number of halo electrons is increasing, while the relative number of strahl electrons is decreasing with distance.Therefore we provide, for the first time, strong evidences for a scenario that is commonly assumed: the heliospheric electron halo population consists partly of electrons that have been scattered out of the strahl.
A common mistake made by critics of the electric model is to assume that the radial electric field of the Sun should be not only measurable but also strong enough to accelerate electrons toward the Sun at “relativistic” speeds (up to 300,000 kilometers per second). By this argument, we should find electrons not only zipping past our instruments but also creating dramatic displays in Earth’s night sky.
But as noted above, in the plasma glow-discharge model the interplanetary electric field will be extremely weak. No instrument placed in space could measure the radial voltage differential across a few tens of meters, any more than it could measure the solar wind acceleration over a few tens of meters. But we can observe the solar wind acceleration over tens of millions of kilometers, confirming that the electric field of the Sun, though imperceptible in terms of volts per meter, is sufficient to sustain a powerful drift current across interplanetary space. Given the massive volume of this space, the implied current is quite sufficient to power the Sun.
Originally posted by squiz
reply to post by ngchunter
Humorous, actually not much point arguing with you until you do a bit more study instead of watching discovery universe specials and copying the arguments of others without understanding the complexity of the thing your arguing about. It's a waste of my time.
Yes your argument is practically a complete copy and paste of the same stuff all over the net on this issue, nothing new there.
At least Tim Thompson goes about his argument scientifically for the most part, I respect that and your attempts fall far below that level of critique when you can't get the basics right and are oblivious to the new observations and some old ones it seems.
This is not verification of a source of power just showing the error in many of your assumptions.
 Observed electron distribution functions of the solar wind permanently exhibit three different components: a thermal core and a suprathermal halo, which are always present at all pitch angles, and a sharply magnetic field aligned strahl which is usually antisunward moving. Whereas Coulomb collisions can explain the relative isotropy of the core population, the origin of the halo population, and more specifically the origin of its sunward directed part, remains unknown.
In this study we present the radial evolution of the electron velocity distribution functions in the fast solar wind between 0.3 and 1.5 AU. For this purpose we combine data measured separately by the Helios, Wind, and Ulysses spacecraft. We compute average distributions over distance and normalize them to 1 AU to remove the effects of the solar wind expansion. Then we model separately the core, halo, and strahl components to compute their relative number density or fraction of the total electron density. We observe that, while the core fractional density remains roughly constant with radial distance, the halo and strahl fractional densities vary in an opposite way. The relative number of halo electrons is increasing, while the relative number of strahl electrons is decreasing with distance.Therefore we provide, for the first time, strong evidences for a scenario that is commonly assumed: the heliospheric electron halo population consists partly of electrons that have been scattered out of the strahl.