Economy Sinking Government Knows & Giving Bad Info

even in the socialist mecca you wish the United States was.

Lets make something very clear Im not a democrat or socialist by any means. I have never voted democrat ever...I dont believe in wealth distribution and I am a BIG believer in small government and I dont think solving this problem is by putting the tax bracket to 50% either. I do not I repeat I do not think it is right for the extreme wealthy to take advantage of people during bad times. Do you need an example of someone...Ok Ill give you an example. Big Oil....who is bending over the American people and many ways. For one during Katrina your friend Hugo Chaves sent a boat load of free oil to help ease some of the costs. You know what happened...the story got brushed under the table and big oil turned around and charged full price for it. We are getting lots of oil in Iraq and its oil thats not costing any money only American lives...instead of throwing the american people a discount they charge us full market value...do you research you will see what I mean. Its now obvious you dont understand this thread and I dont know if I have the initiative to explain it anymore. This thread is about getting people to save money which many times you have said you think people need to do for. I think the government is lying about the data that is where we disagree and If you think I am a socialist because I think the government lies to us then 90% of America is socialist and YOU are too. Get with it and please step back from the cherry Kool Aid

reply to post by LightinDarkness

I need to find something you know about because you dont understand the thread so I need to find something to talk to you so you understand....I didnt mean to say most government because I know most is not a mason GW was and some others. I said outright I dont know a lot about the subject so for you to ridicule is just stupid but I can say that I dont know anything about the subject.

reply to post by mybigunit


Thats just the problem, who gets to define who is "wealthy" and what is "being taken advantage of"? Its just class warfare on your part, and any attempt to define it brings us just a little bit closer to socialism. Which is fine, if your a socialist. I am not.

But I also do not think there are loads of cackling stereotypical "evil" rich out there looking for everyday to profit from the poor. There just aren't. The vast majority of the rich profit from investing in the market now, and that doesn't bother me or any other poor person one bit.

You are just factually wrong about oil. We get no oil for free from Iraq - we pay for it, just like everyone else does. Chavez's oil ship had nothing to do with Katrina, it was a complete political stunt and was plastered everywhere in the media. You obviously need to do your research.

I do mine full time. Its called graduate school.

This thread has nothing to do with saving money, its about you being a soothsayer and trying to predict doom and gloom. I won't allow you to do without me saying anything. People should be saving there money no matter what happens - if they don't, thats life, they fail. You are drinking the kool aid trying to blame everyones problems on the big bad government. Get over it.

I am still waiting evidence that ANY piece of government data is simply "lies," and any evidence that you have for this being the next depression. You cant use government data either, since its all lies.

Fact and reason wins every time. And it has won again. Stop sleeping, wake up. Stop being just another one of the sheep that believes everything they do is someone else's fault.

reply to post by mybigunit


Oh no, I obviously know much more about this than you, but you just cry that everyone who doesn't agree with you just doesn't "understand" - because surely everything you say is truth.

You continue to show no knowledge of the subject matter at hand.

[edit on 2-1-2008 by LightinDarkness]

you what. i do believe you because i went down to temp service recently and they even told me that there were no jobs available. it not like i have no education either.

reply to post by nwomi


Because your singular experience is generalizable to the entire population...

reply to post by LightinDarkness


GW George Washington wasnt a mason? GW = George Washington..no where did I say George Bush

Some good banter here; and then some not so good banter. America is a capitalistic society. That means that clerical people will not become millionaires; but the executives they serve will. Why? Because the skills of the executive are valued more highly. It's common sense to me. There's way more clerical type folks out there than there are people capable of working at the C- level (CEO, CFO, CIO, CTO, COO, etc). Supply and demand, plain and simple.

Am I an executive? Not yet. Do I want to be an executive? You bet. What am I doing to accomplish that? Nearly every entry in my 16 year resume is part of a ladder building my experience upward to that level. That's my goal and I'm in control of achieving it. What's odd is you rarely hear people talk like this anymore. Nowadays it's more about what "I deserve because I've done my time." Archaic thinking like that is what separates the haves from the have nots.

I always enjoy reading about the millions who are living paycheck to paycheck. Are those the folks who live in rental units yet have widescreen TVs and projection TVs so large you can make out the picture while driving by? Or are they the folks who have every game console Sony ever put out; and were among the first to buy the PS3 just because they had to have it? Or are they the ones I see buying rounds at Carrabbas on credit cards?

Capitalism is not about fairness and equality. It's about rewarding those who risk capital to make a buck. They provide the jobs and they should reap the benefits before others do. At the same time, I think there should be some level of fairness in taxation. I think a consumption tax could be fair -- it would tax the millionaire buying the $3 million Hatteras appropriately. A consumption tax promotes saving by those who clearly cannot save on their own or make wise money decisions. Don't want to pay that x% sales tax on that luxury item? Then put your money in the bank and save it for what matters most.

I am still waiting evidence that ANY piece of government data is simply "lies," and any evidence that you have for this being the next depression. You cant use government data either, since its all lies.

Ok so I think what you are asking me here is list some government data that is not truthful. Ok do I need to prove to you that the government has lied to us before and will lie several more times..Ok Ill give proof and when I do will you finally admit that everything the government says isnt all truthfull?

reply to post by titian


I agree with you 100%. Great points!

mybigunit:

You are proclaiming the sky falling without any data, and you tell us all governement data is lies. All this without evidence or proof. If you cannot provide evidence that the economy is bombing without resorting to government data, then perhaps you see the absurdity in what you say.

Your logic speaks for itself. If you can provide proof from an academic peer reviewed source that has done it's own statistics and shows that the government lied, then your right. I'm waiting. Don't even try passing off random webpages as proof - I can make a webpage saying anything I want as well. I can also make a wikipedia article that says what I want.

And yes, GW was a mason - I was expecting that to be a typo (GWB). The fact that he was doesn't mean anything. He was also male. Does that mean there is a male conspiracy?

[edit on 2-1-2008 by LightinDarkness]

I always enjoy reading about the millions who are living paycheck to paycheck. Are those the folks who live in rental units yet have widescreen TVs and projection TVs so large you can make out the picture while driving by? Or are they the folks who have every game console Sony ever put out; and were among the first to buy the PS3 just because they had to have it? Or are they the ones I see buying rounds at Carrabbas on credit cards?

I agree totally this is one of the problems we have which Ive stated several times in the thread. People need to get priorities straight and now more than ever and put that money they save from eating home instead of Carrabas away. The problem is my friend Lightindarkness is saying that if you work and put in your time that you will make it in this country and that is not all true. There is a lot of luck involved.

Capitalism is not about fairness and equality. It's about rewarding those who risk capital to make a buck. They provide the jobs and they should reap the benefits before others do. At the same time, I think there should be some level of fairness in taxation. I think a consumption tax could be fair -- it would tax the millionaire buying the $3 million Hatteras appropriately. A consumption tax promotes saving by those who clearly cannot save on their own or make wise money decisions. Don't want to pay that x% sales tax on that luxury item? Then put your money in the bank and save it for what matters most.

Consumption tax solves a lot of our problems we have today. What you said I agree with.

Am I an executive? Not yet. Do I want to be an executive? You bet. What am I doing to accomplish that? Nearly every entry in my 16 year resume is part of a ladder building my experience upward to that level. That's my goal and I'm in control of achieving it. What's odd is you rarely hear people talk like this anymore. Nowadays it's more about what "I deserve because I've done my time." Archaic thinking like that is what separates the haves from the have nots.

You are in control but yet you arent. You can bust your arse and keep busting but you may never get that break. Thats where the luck that I keep talking about is involved. Now if you just quit now stay home all day and watch TV you will get nothing so in that sense you are in control. But even though you keep building your resume and keep going this doesnt guarantee you anything. Work hard first and hopefully you will catch a break. If you are one of the lucky ones to catch the break cause many people are not then give back. Im not saying though taxes there are many other ways and dont take advantage of the working people.

I can't help but feel that there's a riot in our near future from those who cannot afford their fuel expenses or a car that gives them better fuel mileage. Also take into consideration those who have cars that are in need of repairs etc. I seem to recall living in an apartment building where the landlord added a surcharge to the rent for the buildings higher heating expenses.

Where and how can you possibly take all these factors in for a cost of living increase and tax AND fuel expenses relief for these people who are so drastically effected? How many people will be selling and buying black market fuel to survive? And how can you ever keep your fuel in your cars without it being stolen and your fuel tanks without holes in them?

Maybe this is exactly what they want in order to execute martial law and the NWO?

I think the government knows exactly what they're doing.Maybe it's all a means to an end and the beginning of their NWO?

reply to post by mybigunit


Stop lying. Lying won't make your distorted reality come true. I know you want to blame everything on the government, but lying about what I say won't change the fact that you believe in a myth.

I have always said and will continue to say that some people are rich due to luck, others are rich because they worked their way there. Unlike you, I have no malice or hatred for the rich, even those who got there by luck - that's just the way life is. Life isn't fair. Never has been, never will be.

I have no doubt in my mind that anyone who works hard can live a comfortable life. They may not be rich, but they will not be poor either (exceptions allowed, as state earlier). The difference between you and I is that I believe in people. I believe people are capable of doing whatever they set their heart and mind to. I do not believe people are weak and need to be helped, or need to find excuses for why they fail.

I have always said and will continue to say that some people are rich due to luck, others are rich because they worked their way there. Unlike you, I have no malice or hatred for the rich, even those who got there by luck - that's just the way life is. Life isn't fair. Never has been, never will be.

Ok so once again we agree that there is luck involved with being wealthy wow another thing we agree on...I have no malice for the rich and my definition of rich is 750K or more a year. Extremely rich is the Bill Gates type. Upper middle class is 250 to 749k which is where I sit. Mid class 100 to 249k working class 40k to 99k and poor is below that...I think those are resonable numbers to go by. I have no malice against anyone your putting words in my mouth. Thats how you keep making comments by putting words in peoples mouths. Im the only one whos been consistant this whole thread. One minute you say if you work hard and make right choices you will make it in america which now you say after I have said a million times there is luck involved there.

You point at first was well things are great out here why do people need to save and now you are like well people should save for when life hits. Well if everything that is going on isnt life then I dont know what is. And like Ive stated because Ive been consistent this is partly why I wrote the thread.

We can agree to disagree on if the government lies about data and Im talking economical or any data for that matter or not. We will have to agree to disagree on the state of the economy you say everything is great I say give it one year starting with earnings this first quarter.

Stop lying. Lying won't make your distorted reality come true. I know you want to blame everything on the government, but lying about what I say won't change the fact that you believe in a myth.

Guy if anyone believes in a myth its you my friend. You believe that our government is honest with us all the time and never lies about anything and that they and the a lot of the big companies are looking out for your and my interests Im sorry you are in the myth. Companies care about the bottom dollar and thats it and our government cares for nothing but power. We are sheep on a leash.

I believe people are capable of doing whatever they set their heart and mind to. I do not believe people are weak and need to be helped, or need to find excuses for why they fail.

If you dont work you get no help if you are out there busting arse to get the dreams they have set their minds on sometimes a little lift is what people need to get to that next level. You just keep being greedy we will see where that gets you in life.

reply to post by mybigunit


LOL! No wonder you have such a distorted view of the world, if you think the "middle class" is 99k a year. Where I grew up 90k a year would still be enough to buy the biggest house in town, and it isn't a poor town by any means. Almost no one makes that, and the US Census shows it.

If you define 250k a year as upper middle class, you are crazy. 250k a year at todays income levels has been and will for the next 40 years be rich. Only the top 5% of people in this country make that much money a year, and frankly I doubt you do. But again, you are setting up these absurdly high levels to make up class warfare.

Your perception of class creates a class war, because EVERYONE would be middle/low class.

If you stop lying about me, I'll stop putting words in your mouth. But you haven't so far, and I doubt you will. Stop lying about what I say, its pathetic. Lying won't make your conspiracy real.

STOP THE LIES:

- I have said and always said being rich can be done through luck and hard work. If you work hard you may NOT end up rich, but you will not end up poor either.
- I have said and always said we are heading toward a recession, as part of the normal economic cycle.

I know you believe in this lie you made up, but lying about what I say won't make it any better. Keep up your soothsaying and doomsday predictions, I will continue to point out your wrong. But you keep drinking that kool-aid. Wake up! You just keep blaming everything on the big bad government and see how far it gets you in life.

[edit on 2-1-2008 by LightinDarkness]

[edit on 2-1-2008 by LightinDarkness]

Originally posted by mybigunit
If you dont work you get no help

Perhaps I am misreading your statement; but what do you call welfare, food stamps, unemployment, disability? All these things are government aid. Guess what? All these things are heavily abused and under-regulated.

My sister-in-law works at an inner city bank. What's the busiest day of the month there - welfare check day. How many checks are deposited: practically none. Almost all are cashed. Wonder what the corresponding crime rate is that night? Through the roof.

I think we incent people to not work here in the US. Want a bigger welfare check? Have another kid.

You know what's funny? Drive through Syracuse in the middle of winter when the temperature is consistently between 0-20 degrees F? Ask yourself why there are doors and windows that are wide open during the day. Because their utility bill is paid by the city and it's widely known that these folks think it's funny. After all, they're not paying the bill. That's why I live one county north - I live in a rural county where crime is lower and so are the taxes.

So, you can't tell me that those who don't work don't get help. Again, maybe I misread your statement and you were talking about luck.

Can you tell how strongly I feel about this topic?

Lightindarkness has no sense of the harsh realities facing Americans today, that much is obvious. He keeps demanding proof, but ignores it when given. Personal experiences mean nothing to him because he has never had to make the tough choices, that much is clear. If you think driving a $3,000 car is being down un your luck, you're lost in delusion. Come back and talk to us when your grant money runs out and you have to start repaying your loans in the real world.

I am not trying to defend the people, the many people even, who make foolish decisions and spend what they cannot afford just because they have to have the latest gadget. I will speak for the people who are having to buy oil on a credit card to heat their homes. The people who's children suffer from malnutrition from eating ramen noodles for five days a week and skip the other two. The list goes on.

And even those people who do go out and buy a big TV or semi-expensive car do deserve some empathy. After all, without consumers, there would be no economy. I don't think they should be putting these things on a credit card, but they are simply trying to maintain the lifestyle that they have enjoyed for years as middle-class Americans. Furthermore, they listen to people like you Light, who tell them that things are not really that bad and that they will be able to pay off their credit cards after the slump. Or maybe we should just do away with the middle class entirely and everyone should eat ramen noodles from now on. I smell a Communist here.

reply to post by titian



The welfare system is there to give people jobs, not to help the people who really need it. People on welfare do indeed have children to squeeze more money out of welfare and neglect their own children. It needs to stop. Denying the realities of poverty only exacerbates them. Please note that I am not accusing you of this, and fully agree that the welfare system needs to be rebuilt from the ground up.

I thought we considered the US' unofficial class structure based on net worth; but I could be wrong.

Here is an interesting publication though. It is from our friend the Fed; but it still gives you interesting insight into factors affecting wealth.

Federal Reserve Survey of Consumer Finance

reply to post by titian


you are misreading what im saying there is if you dont work or make an effort IE school or whatever then you get no help.