Economy Sinking Government Knows & Giving Bad Info, page 3

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reply posted on 18-12-2007 @ 07:37 PM by mybigunit

Ill just continue making my killing shorting stocks but in regards to the wikepedia I said in my post dont only use that as the only reference because I know that it is not the most reliable but it does give you basic overviews. As far as proof we are in a recession I wont have that proof till its to late. Ill know when retailers post earnings early next year that will be my sign not some government data.....earnings dont lie (unless of course your Enron) Thats when Ill know. How do they keep it under wraps? Basically what you are saying is our government if fully open with everything they do that we Americans know everything. That they are honest and trustworthy and wouldnt hide anything from us. If you really believe that then sir/madam I cant help you.

reply posted on 18-12-2007 @ 08:30 PM by LightinDarkness

reply to post by mybigunit

This is called a false dilemma fallacy. I have never said the government is completely trustworthy, and you of course know that. The government obviously keeps secrets - but not when it comes to the statistics they publish. You have (again) offered no data or evidence for this idea nor explained how you can seem to figure out what the "real" status of the economy is since all government indicators are made up.

Also, since when did one quarter of earnings signal anything? Holiday sales could be absolutely horrible, and it wouldn't mean a thing as far as the likelihood of a recession. That is just basic trend analysis knowledge: one data point does not a trend make.

reply posted on 18-12-2007 @ 09:39 PM by mybigunit

I dont know poor retail numbers just give me another notch on why the economy is so bad. Ok so now you say the government cant be trusted but they dont lie about facts they give???????????? So if they say something then it is the truth then its only when they deny something...Im confused. Nixon came out with facts about watergate does that mean we should trust him? Bill Clinton came out and said I did not have sex with that woman...so we should believe him? Once again we will agree to disagree.

reply posted on 18-12-2007 @ 11:17 PM by 3_Libras

Its people like LightningDarkness or whatever his name is that are the pit of a country thats in complete denial. Keep telling yourself that everything is peachy. Do you learn anything from history? As a 6 year old, you assumed that the world was fine, and in capable hands because there was no reason to assume that grown ups were malevolent. They have to be good right?

Theres a far bigger underlying problem to responses like that than just the economic aspect. Why do you convince yourself that people are smarter than they actually are? We are a diseased species

reply posted on 19-12-2007 @ 12:05 AM by jackinthebox

I find it hard to believe that people still have such faith in our government and economic system after all the evidence that has been put forth on ATS. One thing connects to the next. 9/11 was a hoax to perpetrate an economic agenda. The supression of the people creates a prison-state which is profitable to the gatekeepsers. The police-state has been implemented and is already in place to stomp out dissent. Dissent will be equivelant to thinking for yourself, instead of buying in to the blatant lies that will soon put the entirety of the world's resources under the direct control of very few. The very few I speak of have been planning this for a long time, and have worked diligently. All the conspiracies, all the secret societies, all the lies that are told, all the bloodshed, its all to enslave the human race to the masters of deception. The illuminati are the illuminated ones, the enlightened ones. Shown the light by the "light-bearer" I suppose. That would be Lucis Ferre, Lucifer.

I hate to plug my own thread too much, but it is important to me that people see this video. If you are interested in the conspiratorial nature of economics, please stop by here. The video is linked on the first page, and a lively debate ensues on further pages of the thread if you're interested.

reply posted on 19-12-2007 @ 02:20 AM by LightinDarkness

reply to post by jackinthebox

Yes, and yet you have still shown no evidence as to how or why the government would fake its own data, ESPECIALLY SINCE FAKING ITS OWN DATA WOULD CAUSE AN ECONOMIC COLLAPSE AND HURT THE GOVERNMENTS OWN REVENUES IN THE LONG TERM.

Hmm. Believing that government data involving tens of thousands of workers who have touched the data which are separately verified by state governments and academia is real, or believing that there is a nation-wide luciferian cabal working to to enslave the human race as we know it.

You decide.

I find it hard to believe that people keep putting faith in satanic cabals which cannot be proved over the veracity of actual data. I am beginning to believe that some posters here are serving primarily to act as caricatures against "normal" conspiracy theorists.

By the way, please stop hyping your own thread. The mods have asked you to stop before, so please do so.

[edit on 19-12-2007 by LightinDarkness]

reply posted on 19-12-2007 @ 02:35 AM by LightinDarkness

reply to post by 3_Libras

Yes, did you enjoy the personal insults? Do you think it helped you make your point? All you did was show you have no evidence or proof for what your saying, except that you want a conspiracy. Thanks for proving my point.

Let this show ATS readers how some people on this forum respond: when they read an opinion they cannot agree with, they do not actually dispute based on the evidence, they immediately begin attacking the person and provide no evidence to support their views.

Just for everyones collective amusement, see, I can do it too:

Its people like 3_Libras or whatever his name is that are the pit of a country that wants to explain away all their problems with conspiracy theory. Keep telling yourself that the answer to everything is a conspiracy. Do you learn anything from history? As a 6 year old, you were scared of unseen things that go bump in the night that later turned out to be your mind playing tricks on you. But you heard that bump, so it has to be real, right?

Theres a far bigger problem to responses like this than just the economic aspect. Why do you convince yourself that you are smarter than everyone else and can spot this conspiracy? We are a diseased species.

Very easy to do!

This has unfortunately devolved into some posters saying "You are stupid if you can't see the big huge conspiracy and that the government is lying to you." I respond "Where is there any evidence of the government manipulating its own statistics?" Then I get the response "You are stupid if you can't see the huge big conspiracy that the government is lying to you. I know we're headed toward economic collapse even though I have no data, I feel it."

The utility of me responding is gone - these types of posters will never consider that there may just be no conspiracy and I think it is very obvious to anyone reading this thread what is reality and what is fantasy. I will check and see if there is anything of substance for me to respond to every so often, but I am fairly sure from here on out it will just be people insulting me for not agreeing with their opinion for which they have no evidence, logic, or reason.

[edit on 19-12-2007 by LightinDarkness]

reply posted on 19-12-2007 @ 06:59 AM by mybigunit

Light there is no proof yet that is why it is a conspiracy. It couldnt be proved that Nixon had anything to do with watergate either but as time went eventually we found out.....eventually the truth will come out here. Weather Im right or your right it will come out. I dont need to go over the 1000s of time our government has lied to us and yes alot of the times they lied was for our own good and that is why they dont tell us everything out there. I think we can agree on that much that sometimes it is for our own good.

Personally I dont think our government is smart enough to pull off 9/11 but I wouldnt put it past the government to let it happen so certain people can do the agenda they have wanted to do kinda like Pearl Harbor. A conspiracy is a conspiracy till proved otherwise but just because I cant prove it at this point and time does not mean that im wrong.. no it just means that all the facts arent out but If you cant even agree with me that the government sometimes gives disinfo for good and bad and that the way we collect our data is a flawed system then I dont know what to say. Im hoping to shed light on this because who knows mabey the right person will come along and read this and do some investigating that I cant do straight up Bob Woodward style.

But my whole theme prepare for the worst hope for the best still stands which once again is why I posted this.

reply posted on 19-12-2007 @ 01:06 PM by jackinthebox

reply to post by LightinDarkness

First of all, you are arguing with someone else over government data, in case you lost track. I never said that tens of thousands of government workers were falsifying data. But since you shot in my direction, I will put in my two cents. Anyone who has done any investigating at all, knows that factual data can be used to support a lie. All it takes is a missing piece of data that no one knows about or thinks about.

By the way, please stop hyping your own thread. The mods have asked you to stop before, so please do so.

Are you a mod? Why are you so concerned about people reading our previous discussion?

I was never asked to stop provinding information, particularly when it is pertinent to the discussion.

I sense an active conspiracy to deter people from watching this video. I am not mentioning it for any personal gain. I think people need to see it. So fine, don't visit my thread, see the video right here.

[edit on 12/19/0707 by jackinthebox]

reply posted on 19-12-2007 @ 02:44 PM by Rockpuck

Originally posted by 3_Libras
Its people like LightningDarkness or whatever his name is that are the pit of a country thats in complete denial. Keep telling yourself that everything is peachy. Do you learn anything from history? As a 6 year old, you assumed that the world was fine, and in capable hands because there was no reason to assume that grown ups were malevolent. They have to be good right?

Theres a far bigger underlying problem to responses like that than just the economic aspect. Why do you convince yourself that people are smarter than they actually are? We are a diseased species

That is a completely unfair assesment of what he is saying..

Economics has ALWAYS been divided in any time as to whether or not its "good" or "bad" .. essentially there will ALWAYS be someone on either side. Even in a depression, the economy is perfect for some people, it opens opportunities. As it falls, opportunities, as it arises, opportunities. You see pundants saying this, or that, but notice no one ever agrees on anything. And no one can predict how the economy will fair in the next few years.

IMO we are walking a tight-rope over a threshold of either recession or continued stability. Given the looks of the economy right now from a middle class perspective, you could say things are not good, prices rising, inflation, job insecurity, mortgage issues. However, technically, GDP is rising, spending increases albeit small but rising, people are getting wealthier and more jobs are being created (though I question what type of jobs)..

From the wealthy prospective the past few years have never been better, more millionaires then ever where created, the richer got richer, like they normally do.

A few years ago the Dems devoutly placed a big part of their parties stance on the economy, that it was bad and it was the Republicans fault.. then the markets and the economy in a few years broke every record there was.. and people STILL said the economy was bad. Its always bad for someone.

I would also question how much control the government has over the economy, and why so many blame the government for economic problems. Aside from suggesting rates rise, the government stance in the economy is pretty mute, the economy runs in cycles, and the businesses themselves increase the revenues, payout the pay checks, hoard the money or invest in American economy.

From your comments, I don't think you ever honestly even tried to study cause and effect within the economy.

By the way:

Fed injects $20 billion today EU injects $500 billion today

Truly will be interesting to see where it all goes.

[edit on 12/19/2007 by Rockpuck]

reply posted on 19-12-2007 @ 03:40 PM by mybigunit

reply to post by Rockpuck

I think you asked the right question RockPuck where are these jobs going....its not for construction or financial.....according to the reports all these jobs are going to government. *COUGH* I too am looking at this from a mid class point of view or what i perceive to be mid class but the overall outlook does not feel good for all of the reasons that I mentioned. I do disagree with you on governments roll in the economy I think policy by the government can turn the economy in either direction example raising taxes on middle class....raising the fed funds rate at this point and time getting rid of or keeping certain trade policies I think can turn the economy in either direction good or bad. Im not smart enough to say what policy is the best to keep this economy going strong and to keep this landing that we are going to see a soft landing. Set some cash aside by a little extra food to store and get ready for the bumpy ride and if that ride doesnt come well hey you do what what most americans dont do and that is have a little money tucked away

reply posted on 19-12-2007 @ 03:59 PM by LightinDarkness

reply to post by mybigunit

Unbelievable. You read that entire post which fundamentally disagreed with your "hypothesis", and you immediately start warping two lines of it which *COUGH* directly disagreed with you and spinning it toward your own ideology. I stand in amazement. The financial and construction industries have sectors that deal with much more than simply subprime loans and housing. Not to mention, the majority of construction jobs are actually low-paying - why would you want a huge increase in them?

You would make an excellent politician. You continually tell us the government is making up numbers and yet you somehow have divined that a massive depression is coming based on your own "feelings." This is why I give up, because no matter what is said you just keep saying that the government is somehow lying but YOU can someone use divination to figure out what the "real" status of the economy is.

[edit on 19-12-2007 by LightinDarkness]

reply posted on 19-12-2007 @ 04:59 PM by mybigunit

What have I went back on? He says and I quote

I would also question how much control the government has over the economy, and why so many blame the government for economic problems. Aside from suggesting rates rise, the government stance in the economy is pretty mute, the economy runs in cycles, and the businesses themselves increase the revenues, payout the pay checks, hoard the money or invest in American economy.

So I respond

I do disagree with you on governments roll in the economy I think policy by the government can turn the economy in either direction example raising taxes on middle class....raising the fed funds rate at this point and time getting rid of or keeping certain trade policies I think can turn the economy in either direction good or bad. Im not smart enough to say what policy is the best to keep this economy going strong and to keep this landing that we are going to see a soft landing.

I dont agree government policy does affect where we go and how people invest and thats why we need to get fair correct numbers. Where did I reneg? He says and I quote

more jobs are being created (though I question what type of jobs)..

And my response is

its not for construction or financial.....according to the reports all these jobs are going to government.

They say they are all going to government jobs. BS what sectors are hiring hmm?
Construction No not with the housing issue...Financial.....No All the banks are laying off.....Manufacturing.......No they are all going over seas to china.....Government...ohhhhh theres where all the jobs are going....according to the crap numbers the government gives.....Dude there are no jobs being created...the government is pushing out bogus numbers ....K so Ill continue...he says

IMO we are walking a tight-rope over a threshold of either recession or continued stability. Given the looks of the economy right now from a middle class perspective, you could say things are not good, prices rising, inflation, job insecurity, mortgage issues.

So I responded by

I too am looking at this from a mid class point of view or what i perceive to be mid class but the overall outlook does not feel good for all of the reasons that I mentioned.

Im still not seeing where Im spinning I am very consistant in what Im saying....

Now U say

The financial and construction industries have sectors that deal with much more than simply subprime loans and housing. Not to mention, the majority of construction jobs are actually low-paying - why would you want a huge increase in them?

and I say LOL if you think that financial institutions are hiring right now...From what I get what you are saying is that they are diversified and the the subprime shouldnt be affecting their hiring.....you can pull up the top 5 banks and all of them are laying off....year real diversified....these are the people running our major financial institutions....the only company that got it right was Goldman Sachs who was shorting these loans the whole time while all these other schmucks were buying....Where am I spinning?

reply posted on 19-12-2007 @ 05:02 PM by mybigunit

btw above i meant to say I agree policy affects where we go economic wise I was typing to fast didnt see it till now. We need good fair outfront numbers to the policy the government decides on works.

reply posted on 19-12-2007 @ 05:30 PM by LightinDarkness

See above. You did exactly what I said you would do.

Me: "Where is the evidence or proof that the government is lying? Why would they do that? It makes no sense."

You: "I have no proof or evidence, but I know the government is lying. I also have no proof or evidence because the government numbers are lying, but a depression is coming."

Rinse, and repeat. ENOUGH!

reply posted on 19-12-2007 @ 06:08 PM by Rockpuck

reply to post by mybigunit

I think you asked the right question RockPuck where are these jobs going....its not for construction or financial

Yes, I would agree.. and ironically.. they report "trade skill" jobs in the economic growth rate, how many jobs are created. Illegal immigration has been increasingly infiltrating trade skills like construction, electrician, drywalling, roofing, carpentry .. so non-Americans can be figured into job growth.

according to the reports all these jobs are going to government.

And I thought we elected a Republican into office? .. I don't think the government, and its agencies have expanded so fast in such a short amount of time since the beginning years of the Cold War.

I do disagree with you on governments roll in the economy I think policy by the government can turn the economy in either direction example raising taxes on middle class....raising the fed funds rate at this point and time getting rid of or keeping certain trade policies I think can turn the economy in either direction good or bad.

Oh ya, the Gov has some influence on the economy, but not nearly as much as what people think.. a good portion of the influence resides in the Federal Reserve, which is as Federal as Federal Express. The banks, which receive little to no oversight from congress could enact policies that screw the nations economy and their hands would be wiped clean. Government trade wars, well that will always have a drastic effect on economies, we can look to the US, Japanese trade wars to see the effect it had.

reply posted on 1-1-2008 @ 06:02 PM by pjsconcrete

reply to post by LightinDarkness

As a former member of the middle class who's life has been destroyed by the housing market crash (small home improvement corporation owner), I have a perspective you do not. In 4 months time I went from wealthy to poor. Why? There is no more business in the housing sector. I am one of thousands in central Florida who went from boom to bust in the matter of months.

When they figure the numbers on inflation, guess what the don't take into account: FUEL or your utility bills. All they look at are consumables and goods sold. They don't take into account your electric bill, cable bill, internet bill, phone service, water bill, gas for your car, insurance, or your medical bills. What a crock of &*%$! If you added all those items in, you would have double digit inflation.

Once again, we're being lied to and manipulated by our leaders so that we continue to go shopping. So just go out, shop at WalMart, go to Disney with your family, eat at McDonalds, do all those things that good Americans do.
Oh by the way, if you don't you're a terrorist!

reply posted on 1-1-2008 @ 06:13 PM by LightinDarkness

I am sorry that you want to blame your own problems on anyone but yourself. Don't get a job in a sector that is known to be cyclical if you can't handle it. Diversify your skill set. You want to think you've had it hard - I could care less - I'm quite sure I've had it "harder" than you but I don't feel the need to blame my problems on others in order to justify my current position in life by talking about it on a message board.

I personally know quite a few people in the construction business who are doing just fine. In fact, some people are raking in more money than they have in years. But that's because they diversified their business strategy and ensured their success did not rest or fall on a market that has - and will always be - cyclical. They started planning for this years ago, when everyone saw that the housing bubble was going to pop.

I am sorry you did not know that BLS publishes a inflation index that includes gas and utilities. Unfortunately for the doomsday prophets, it also is looking just fine. Now - if you CHOSE to buy a gas guzzling SUV and can't deal with it, whose fault is it? I on the other hand CHOSE to buy a beater car that gets perfectly fine gas mileage, and it gas prices haven't bothered me one bit. I don't like paying for gas, but its part of life.

CPI does not include your cable or internet because those are luxuries. You are not entitled to them. If you can't afford them, don't buy them. I don't have cable. There are billions of people in this world that would kill to have the lifestyle of the poorest of America's poor, and billions more who would do the same to live in the American "middle class." To them, cable and internet represent the height of luxury - they don't think its an entitlement. Yet people can't help but think they have it so bad - and then blame the product of their personal decisions on government.

Once again, we're being lied to and manipulated to by people who can't take responsibility of their own actions. Just go out, shop, do all those good things that good Americans do - and then blame your personal decisions on the government.

Oh by the way, if you don't blame your personal decisions on the government your a disinformation agent!

[edit on 1-1-2008 by LightinDarkness]

reply posted on 2-1-2008 @ 07:45 AM by pjsconcrete

reply to post by LightinDarkness

I realize that construction is cyclical in nature, and so do the other thousand or so business owners who have gone out of business in my area in the last several months. What we are seening in this country right now is businesses that have been around for generations disappearing. I have been in the business for almost 20 years, and have never seen anything like what is happenening right now. I've been through recessions, housing downturns, and periods of slow business. This is different.

Look at the inflation numbers, and then look at your bills, that's all I'm saying. Have they gone up faster than inflation? Has the food down at the grocery store gone up more than inflation? Gas? I'm not whining and complaining about my bills, I'm trying to show everybody that the numbers on inflation are a lie. But you'll never see it. You'll continue to wear your rose colored glasses, and believe everything Mr. Bush and his government of corporate cronies tells you.

Nevermind everybody!
The economy's great! Everybody else is wrong!
Move on! Nothing to see here!

reply posted on 2-1-2008 @ 09:42 AM by LightinDarkness

reply to post by pjsconcrete

More panic. Do you have any evidence for any of this? Businesses always go out of business. 95% of businesses started - fail. This isn't unusual at all. You should top making the logical fallacy of hasty generalization - your singular experience is not generalizable to the population as a whole.

This is a recession, and they happen every so often. I am happy for people to scream like the sky is falling though. Sell all your investments, go buy canned food. This means that in a few years when things are "back to normal" I profit off everyone who is currently calling for the end of the world.

I've looked at the inflation numbers and my bills. They seem quite in line in to me. In fact my rent hasn't even gone up in years. But then again I do not commit hasty generalization fallacies like you have to prove my viewpoint. So what if prices go up - this is a free market. I've planned enough room in my BUDGET to handle increases in prices. I don't like paying more money, but I realize its part of life.

But you'll never see reality. You'll continue to wear your doomsday glasses, and believe everything in this world is the responsibility of Mr. Bush and his government of corporate cronies. Keep blaming your problems on everyone else.

Nevermind everybody!
The economy is going to crash and we're all going to die! Sell everything you own and move to Mexico!
Quickly! THE SKY IS FALLING!