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Economy Sinking Government Knows & Giving Bad Info

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posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 12:16 PM
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reply to post by mybigunit
 


The media can and do hype up each depression or possibility of a cluster of storms becoming a hurricane. But the good thing about the economy is that its much easier to hype and get people emotional about, because its less tangible. If I tell you the economy sucks and were all going to die in a new great depression enough, you will believe it eventually if you are part of the sheeple. If I tell you a category 5 hurricane is going to hit your state and kill you all, its hard for me to convince you without at least showing you a radar picture of said hurricane.




posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 12:24 PM
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reply to post by mybigunit
 


It is a stupid plan, because the government should not be getting involved in the economy at all. Interference in the economy only makes recessions worse. Don't give money to people, stop taxing them as much - no credits, lower the tax rates. But I also understand that these sort of packages have nothing to do with whether they work, because as any economist knows the government cannot "fix" the economy. There is no "fix" button. Only a "screw it up" button that we can push when we spend more or tax more.

These packages only serve to play into the mass media frenzy that loves to get emotional about the economy. If he did nothing, they'd salivate and play their role as the doomsday prophets even more than they already do. As always, its a media game.



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 12:43 PM
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Stop taxing the poor!

The poor shouldn't be sitting there salivating for a tax break steak. They souldn't be paying taxes at all. How does it make any sense? They are paying money into the government (taxes), and then the same government rules that these people are so poor they must be provided the basic nesessities of life (welfare.) Maybe if they didn't tax the poor, the poor wouldn't need handouts. Add a pint of Guiness and shout "brilliant!"



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 01:35 PM
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Well Jack actually in reality the poor really dont pay taxes they get it all back when they do their taxes except for Social Security. But I understand what u r saying. Light in regards to what u said the plan by the government is stupid it does not help at all there is still the underlying problems which I wrote about on this first page that need to be solved. Its just bush trying to make it look like hes doing something. It doesnt solve the problem at all. So we agree there. I just want the government just to admit we are in a recession can they just admit it?



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 08:38 PM
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reply to post by mybigunit
 


Did you know that welfare benefits are only a loan? My mother is still getting billed for some benefits she got more than a decade ago.

On top of that, I'll still have to pay taxes this year even though I can't afford basic food, shelter, and clothing. Nuts!

EDIT to add:

And Unemployment Insurance should not be considered taxable income.



[edit on 1/18/0808 by jackinthebox]



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 09:24 PM
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reply to post by jackinthebox
 


I know of no state where welfare benefits are a loan. The only time you have to pay anything back is if YOU GOT OVERPAID and you did NOT pay it back - in which case, they will continue to try to collect until they get it from your estate. And if you get paid less than 30,000 or so a year, you won't owe a dime in federal taxes.

[edit on 18-1-2008 by LightinDarkness]



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 09:28 PM
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reply to post by LightinDarkness
 


I really can't argue this point with hard facts. All I know is that my mother told me she would have to pay back the welfare office for the assistance she recieved at that time, and as I said, is still being billed more than a decade later. Might be another case of what's in the fine-print. Most people never hear about it or realize it, because most people never get off welfare.



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 09:29 PM
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reply to post by LightinDarkness
 


I've never made 30k and I never get a full refund. So why were they taxing my unemployment benefits?



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 09:34 PM
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reply to post by jackinthebox
 


One of my jobs in a past career in consulting was with state government disability, and we were analyzing how the welfare bureaucracy worked since we were both running entitlement benefits. I am absolutely sure that welfare benefits are not a loan. They are an entitlement benefit - and while I disagree with that its not changing. The exception is if you are paid over the benefit amount you are entitled to. This happens occasionally. If you are overpaid you must pay it back, and the government will continue to try to collect from you indefinitely.

You are taxed on all income. However, there is a difference in being taxed though and not getting it back. If you make under 30 grand you would be getting everything you paid back when you file your tax return. Of course when I say "make under 30 grand" that INCLUDES investments and other "non-ordinary" income like dividends and annuities.



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 09:39 PM
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reply to post by LightinDarkness
 


My taxes are in storage so I can't pull them out, but I have never gotten anything close to all of my taxes back. Maybe a few hundred bucks, that's it.



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 09:50 PM
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reply to post by jackinthebox
 


Then I'd have to say your doing it wrong - if you mean federal. State government will usually take a few hundred. I have never seen anyone making under 30k who doesn't owe any judgements or tax liens have to pay a dime on federal taxes. Ever. And I know I never did. And I'm back to being poor now as I'm in grad school, but I know I'll only pull in about 20k taxable income and I already know my effective federal tax rate will be 0%.

I don't think its fair that I don't have to pay in taxes - personally I'd prefer a flat tax rate on everyone - but I'm not going to be cutting a check to the government until they force me.



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 09:52 PM
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Originally posted by jackinthebox
Must agree with what you have said. Thank you for being another one of the few who state the obvious, while everyone else is in stuck on "duh" like its another Hyundai sales event. Star for you bud!


There's a Hyundai sales event?



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 09:57 PM
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reply to post by pluckynoonez
 


There was one.



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 10:56 PM
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Originally posted by LightinDarkness
reply to post by jackinthebox
 


Then I'd have to say your doing it wrong - if you mean federal. State government will usually take a few hundred. I have never seen anyone making under 30k who doesn't owe any judgements or tax liens have to pay a dime on federal taxes. Ever. And I know I never did. And I'm back to being poor now as I'm in grad school, but I know I'll only pull in about 20k taxable income and I already know my effective federal tax rate will be 0%.


I'm dubious about the earning 30k with no taxes. You mean to say that you think the average person has enough write offs that they get their 15% back in total? I'm trying to think of any instances where I knew someone who got say, $4500 back from the feds at that income level, and I'm coming up completely blank.

However, and more importantly, why don't we be honest about who /really/ doesn't pay taxes? For example, say, a third of the fortune 500 companies. Some of whom even have so many excess tax breaks that they end up making more money after taxes.

The system is set up in the favor of corporate america and the wealthy, anyone that's worried about social welfare doesn't see the big picture.

Also, some social welfare programs indeed must be paid back. There are grants that become loans under certain circumstances. And there are outright loan programs. And if I understand this correctly, if you own a house, the state holds a lien against it if you're ever on assistance. They don't attempt to collect unless you sell the house.



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 11:02 PM
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reply to post by Jadette
 


Yes, most people can make that much and not pay a dime. If anyone making 30k a year is paying 15% federal, they aren't doing their taxes right. I know of no one who makes that little who is paying anything in federal taxes (state/local is a different matter). I made 25k last year and got everything back from the federal government.

The rich are paying the most taxes. I don't particularly go for the "bash the corporations" line that everyone loves. It is true that some get tax breaks, and so do I. I'm not going to slam a corporation from getting tax breaks when I don't even pay any taxes making about $20k a year as a student. The system is actually set up in favor of the "poor," as anyone who is "rich" gets taxed up to 30%. The money doesn't come out of no where - if the "poor" dont get taxed, and its progressive from there - thats right, those evil rich people are paying.

Also, I never said "ALL SOCIAL WELFARE PROGRAMS ARE NOT LOANS." I said entitlement programs. They are not the same thing. Entitlements are benefits which - by law - must be given to you without condition. Those benefits include welfare, food stamps, and (for now) state backed disability pay. I don't agree with that, but thats the way it is. If you take out a government backed loan, then of course they have a lien against your house - thats how ALL secure loans are based.

[edit on 18-1-2008 by LightinDarkness]



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 11:02 PM
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reply to post by Jadette
 


Thanks for the details.

I made about 22k last year and got like 600 bucks back. So there's the truth revealed on that topic.

As far as my mother's situtation, she did indeed own a home with my father until the roof caved in and my father took full ownership.

EDIT to add: I'm pretty sure all she got was like 30 bucks a month in food stamps for a family of four.


[edit on 1/18/0808 by jackinthebox]



posted on Jan, 19 2008 @ 01:50 PM
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For the littler details that the president and his proposed stimulus is showing, he is targeting the very poor . . . as those that already do not pay much taxes to Begin with.

Also an additional deduction to couples, it will be a bracket to go by so if you do not fall under the bracket have not a family as wife or children under 18 then you can kiss the littler free check bye, bye.

The reason of targeting the very poor is due to the proving fact that they tend to go and spend the check faster and on unnecessary things like food or gas.

This will give the economy a false sense of boost and will make numbers prior to election and the departure of the present administrating look good while holding back the real numbers after election once is not more money to prop the market after the give away money is gone.

This littler scam is nothing more than the biggest deception this government will be doing to us the hard working citizens and to this already bankrupt nation.

This is nothing than dirty politics been played at our expenses.



posted on Jan, 19 2008 @ 02:15 PM
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I hope everyone realizes this is a bipartisan effort. As much fun as it is to bash Bush, you know, occasionally its both parties working together for some political capital. In this case where the congress is democratic, it is obviously both parties at work.

Everyone can thank the mass media for this. Doing some sort of pointless package is the only way to stop the media from continuing to freak out and claim the sky is falling. If the media wasn't so sensationalist and the population didn't buy into it so easy then the government would do what its supposed to do and stay OUT of the economy and let the recession come and go.

The rebate plan is targeted at anyone making less than 70k a year single or 120k couples. This includes the middle class. It also eliminates the bottom tax bracket - which includes the lower middle class (the "poor" do not pay any federal taxes).

Also practically speaking people will use this rebate to pay their bills, or spend nonsensically. Paying bills is still a cash inflow for services, and it still helps the economy.

It is true that this is a bad plan, but I'm going to bash it based on what it is (a bipartisan plan to get political capital) rather than drink the "OMG EVERYTHING IS BUSHES FAULT AND BUSH SUCKS" kool aid.

[edit on 19-1-2008 by LightinDarkness]



posted on Jan, 19 2008 @ 02:21 PM
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reply to post by LightinDarkness
 


I have always considered our present government as nothing more than one elite group under two banners.

So to me it doesn't matter who belong to what they all serve the same masters.

As for the proposed stimulus is only speculation of who will benefit more than who, as today the main target is the very poor.



posted on Jan, 19 2008 @ 02:28 PM
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reply to post by marg6043
 


I don't think they serve anyone, its just two parties vying for political power. The DNC and RNC hate each other, but its not because of policy differences really, its because there isn't enough power to go around.

It really isn't much speculation because this has been tried before under other presidents. We can reliably predict what is going to happen because of this historical information. The low class will go out and splurge, the middle class pay their bills, and the upper class (depending on where you live, making 70k in a rural town would be upper class) will sock it away in a bank account. Is it going to "stimulate" the economy? No. They know this. You can't "fix" a cyclical recession - it must come. But it will buy them political capital because both parties are up for election in November. And that's all that matters.



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