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"YOUR Columbine" - Gunman wrote of rejection as reason for revenge

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posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 04:40 AM
reply to post by Legalizer

I agree with you in regard to the 'need' and 'control' that Murray searched for, and in the end lost out because of. But I wonder if there is any way to 'prove' culpability somehow. Or prove that they actually controlled his mind, or attempted to, and it backfired? Honestly, I have a feeling that it is one of those 'what ifs' that we will never really know the truth.

I mean, even look at what we are discussing here. It would be more than just 'news' if Murray was a 'Manchurian Prophet', and that these acts were what he was 'destined' to do. The Mom would be let in on the prophet aspect, but be compartmentalized out of the real plans for her son. Just as easily it could be a 'mis-programming', and subsequent breakdown and attack against the church. I think that the idea that when the sharpshooter 'activated' the final program yelling "SURRENDER" is an interesting twist to the scenario.

Obviously we have the more mainstream views that Religion failed him, so he sought revenge against it. There is plenty of 'evidence' to support it, and to a degree it even is at the heart of the more frivolous looking theory that has been presented. But what of the evidence in Murray's own words. The forums he posted to have removed the content, either due to the defamatory nature toward New Life and his Religion or maybe he server load from people looking to find some reason for this. He has still been censored.

All throughout the media coverage, New Life has tried hard to distance themselves from the shooter. At first the two attacks seemed almost coincidental, and then as the puzzle pieces fall into play, a missionary group happens to have an office in the church building. No mention that Murray's mother was a New Life member, and was extremely fond of the former Pastor, Ted Haggard. So the shooter, in his own, now censored words, claims that New Life's inner elite viewed him as their prophet, probably is an important clue. I would think that perhaps Murray wrote 'hate mail' to New Life along with the missionary group, but no mention about that. If he did, they might now he was coming after his first attack. Lucky that a trained sharpshooter happened to be volunteering for church security.... her shots were non fatal, the coroner determined that he killed himself.

I still want to know where he got all the guns if he was broke, down and out, and mentally loosing it. He had a ton of fire power, and apparently the police already looking at him being involved. I would like to see a timeline of the events of the last 24 hours of Murray's known whereabouts and movements. To me, it doesn't add up unless he had some help. It was too cold to sleep in his car full of guns, running the engine for heat would draw attention. It is an hour and 15 minute drive from Arvada to New Life in Colorado Springs The two shootings occurred almost 12 hours apart, Murray apparently had time to post his manifesto online(?) and drive to Colorado Springs. At what time did police arrive at his house, but before the second shooting. Where was he in the meantime?

Also, this quote from the New Life Wikipedia page makes me cringe:

In 2005, Jeff Sharlet claimed that while New Life is "by no means the largest megachurch…[it] holds more sway over the political direction of evangelicalism" than any other church in America.

So 2005, New Life holds sway of evangelicalism...
2006, the creator of the church, is outed as a drug and butt sniffer, and kicked out...
2007, a young man, who claims that the church elite viewed him as its prophet, attacks the church and its missionaries, goes on a shooting spree...

Something seems to be amiss.

Also, this is from the Controversy section of the Youth With A Mission wikipedia article:

"Cult" Allegations
In 1986, the Cultic Studies Journal published Laurie Jacobson's account of her experiences within YWAM. In it Jacobson depicts a Discipleship Training School program of eisegesis and social engineering designed to inculcate attitudes and obtain conformity to the group's ways. [33][34] Evangelical theologians Alan Gomes and E. Calvin Beisner claim that certain unorthodox doctrines were taught at some YWAM locations from the 1970s until the 1990s.[35][36] In 1990, researcher Rick Ross, retained by a family in Long Island, New York, published an evaluation of YWAM, refusing to recommend them. Ross' research not only included an interview with the YWAM leaders but also was founded on information obtained from Christian Research Institute, the pre-Scientology Cult Awareness Network, the book Spiritual Warfare by Sara Diamond, and further mention of YWAM in Charisma Magazine. In the report he cited their failure on the basis of Robert J. Lifton's eight criteria for recognizing thought reform and mind control.[37] The Miami Herald also published criticism of YWAM by Baptist missionary LaToya Channer from her experiences up to January 1992, when she left the organization. Channer described the organization to reporter Aurin Squire as a "cult" to which she "became dependent."[38] The Wellington New Zealand Star-Times also examined politician Bernie Ogilvy's connection to the organization during this time period. In the report, Ogilvy confirmed that the group has been called a "cult" by overseas sceptics but said that impression had been corrected. The Star-Times reported that YWAM made enough money to buy up to 12 Auckland houses and that Ogilvy at one point lived in a large house with a swimming pool as the National Director. Ogilvy stated that the houses were all sold and the money given away.[39]

Even more chilling is the 'spiritual warfare' ministry, The World Prayer Center, located at the New Life Church campus. It cost 5.5 million dollars to build and has state of the art computer equipment. World Prayer Center

Act like Jesus, stop talking about him...

posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 11:53 AM
This should explain a bit.
I was surprised to find this.

posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 03:23 AM

Originally posted by DocMoreau
... where did he get all the firearms and ammunition?

This one traces the origons of his guns:

Also this re Murray's alleged 'suicide:'

Radio interview with witness Larry Bourbannais, taken from YouTube:
When I came up to his(Murray's) body, I looked real close for entry wounds. I didn't see anything anywhere on his face. He was bleeding from the back of his head... There was a lot of blood coming out." He also thought the first, male security guard he saw was "an off-duty police officer."

If Murray was shot in the back of the head, it makes it even more unlikely to have been self-inflicted.

And here's some more on Jeanne Assam's unique talents:
First cousin Matt Swenson: "She was a tomboy," he said. "I remember a picture of her with a cowboy hat, a six-shooter and cowboy boots. ... She knew how to shoot guns when she was a kid." Swenson added that he'd heard stories of her shooting ability even after she had become a cop in Minneapolis. .... "I have friends who are Army Rangers calling me, saying what she did is not easy to do, even for trained people," said Swenson.

I would like to hear how Ms. Assam demonstrated her 'shooting abilities' after joining the PD back in Minnesota. Maybe she already had a 'notch' or two scratched on her gun. Sure is lucky a veritable 21st century Annie Oakley was on duty that day, eh?

Here's the stuff they seized at his house:
A handwritten document lists items of interest found by police during a search of Matthew Murray's home, 10929 E. Berry Place in unincorporated Arapahoe County:

Computer discs and a number of hard drives

A Rosicrucian pamphlet. The Rosicrucian Order, an ancient group, stresses the use of mysticism and metaphysics to gain inner wisdom.

"Fall of America" pamphlet, put out by a conspiracy group

54 1/2 alprazolam pills, an anti-anxiety drug

Picture of Ted Haggard, former New Life Church pastor(found on the dining room table, right next to the family computer)

Resume and birth certificate

Phone-number listing for New Life Groups, a networking organization for Christians associated with New Life Church

Boxes of ammunition

Gun cases


Youth With a Mission literature, certificate

Beretta pistol

Bomb components
This source list these additional items:

A journal

Tactical knife

A police homicide investigation manual

A rifle scope

posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 12:05 PM
reply to post by Radekus

I clicked your link, and all I get is the main page. Was there an article you were pointing to?

Thanks to all the links. I still find it strange that Murray was able to afford all that weaponry, it also seems like 2000 dollars wouldn't really be enough.

Springfield Armory 9mm Semi Auto, purchase Sep-11-2007

Bushmaster XM15 assault rifle, purchase Jan-9-2007

Beretta .40 cal. semi auto, purchase Jan-4-2007

AK-47 assault rifle, purchase Nov-17-2006.

If the 9mm is the XD9, thats like 500.00
The Xm15, at least 750.00 used, probably more...
The Beretta .40 cal., around 500.00
and the AK47, non-firing resin replicas are at least 350.00....

I used the google shopping search for those prices. I am sure that Murray was hunting for 'bargains' with his purchases, but I am already over $2000.00, and I would have one fake gun, and no bullets.

I honestly was under the impression that AK-47 assault rifles were off limits for purchase, but that was Murray's first gun purchase, over a year before the attacks. (I did a bit of research and found that AKs were illegal from 1994-Sept 13, 2004, bbut not anymore)

It says that the police found a Baretta pistol at his home. Was this the Baretta that he purchased on Jan 4, 2007, or another one. What guns did he have on his person when he attacked New Life? It is probably unknown what he carried/used at the Missionary Dorms, but they would have found him dead with what? Was he really trying to walk around New Life's campus with an XM15 in one hand and an AK-47 in the other?

I am even more surprised that Murray held his fire until Azzam yelled "Surrender". I would think that in sweeping body motions, Murray could have shredded a crowd, the security guards, who ever he wanted. He had been stockpiling weapons for over a year, why did he hold his fire?

Also, has anyone found any mention whether or not his family raised him with guns? Some families do, so it would not be out of the norm possibly. I can't imagine he could have hidden an AK-47, XM15, two hand guns and ammo, if he wasn't able to hide the books on other religions and his video games. So the pastor took and destroyed 900.00 worth of video games and books, but left well over 2000.00 worth of guns and ammo? They are afraid he is going to hurt himself or others, but they allow him to collect assault weapons... Strange, unless the pastors knew what was in store for their 'prophetic child'...

Honestly, I am not sure how much further I want to dig into this. What I am finding, and the picture that gets painted once you really look at it, makes me a bit anxious. Partly, it seems obvious to me, that even if Murray was not Mind Controlled to do this, there were plenty of opportunities for his family/church to prevent this from happening. Perhaps they were caught up in their egotrips surrounding their devotion to their Church (Cult), and ignored what was really important. Or more sickening, they knew it would happen, and conspired to help Murray achieve his attack by doing nothing.

I do think that if we are going to continue into this investigation, that perhaps I should (or one of you who wants some points) start a new thread, that presents all the findings we have made, and the thesis that Murray made himself, "That his church was mind controlling him". Right now, we are working this out in a 'breaking news' thread that is a bit old. Plus, what we are discussing now doesn't really relate to the title, or at least in a way that most understand. What do you all think?

Should we let this dog go to sleep, or take it to a new level? In some ways, I wonder if we are the only ones in the world who took Murray seriously when he said that he was being 'mind controlled'.

Edit to add this image of Matthew Murray:

[edit on 27/12/2007 by DocMoreau]

posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 12:40 PM

54 1/2 alprazolam pills, an anti-anxiety drug

Never fails, the shooters are always medicated.

Wikipedia Alprazolam

Alprazolam, also known under the trade names Xanax and Niravam, is a short-acting drug in the benzodiazepine class used to treat severe anxiety disorders and as an adjunctive treatment for anxiety associated with clinical depression.

Sheehan describes that the first group of patients treated by alprazolam was so impressed by its action that they knew outright—this drug was going to be a hit. A few of them pooled their money and bought the Upjohn’s stock. Several months later, when alprazolam was approved by the FDA, they sold out and made a profit.

The patients made a profit from their own drug?

Alprazolam is FDA-approved for the short term treatment (up to 8 weeks) of panic disorder, with or without agoraphobia. Alprazolam is very effective in preventing moderate to severe anxiety, essential tremor, panic attacks and other types of convulsive behaviors.

Alprazolam is recommended for the short-term treatment (2-4 weeks) of severe acute anxiety. Alprazolam should only very rarely be used for longer periods of time -- the body becomes rapidly tolerant to the drug's effects, which may translate to decreased efficacy.[7][8] Decreased efficacy can lead to dose escalation, and the use of high doses puts the patient at higher risk for withdrawal if the drug is discontinued suddenly.

side effects

decreased inhibitions, no fear of danger (increased risk taking behavior)
depressed mood with thoughts of suicide or self harm
hallucinations, agitation and hostility

feeling dizziness, light headed or fainting
urinating less than usual or not at all
headache, fatigue, joint pain and unusual weakness (flu like symptoms)
speech problems,
complete memory loss, (amnesia) and concentration problems
changes in appetite (including changes in weight)
blurred vision, unsteadiness and clumsiness (impaired coordination and balance)
constipation, diarrhea, nausea and vomiting
decreased sex drive
dry mouth or increased salivation
nervousness, restlessness, sleeplessness and sweating
pounding in the chest or rapid heartbeat
skin inflammation
muscle twitching, tremor and seizure (convulsions)


There is now a general consensus among psychiatrists that alprazolam and other benzodiazepines can cause withdrawal symptoms after long-term treatment and discontinuation should be done gradually over a period of months (or even up to a year) to avoid serious withdrawal symptoms such as agitation, panic attacks, rebound anxiety, muscle cramps and seizures.

Alprazolam has an exceptional history insofar soon after its introduction a large number of case reports were published in the medical literature of severe withdrawal symptoms related case reports of withdrawal psychoses, seizures and intense rebound anxiety upon discontinuation of alprazolam. In the United States a survey of physicians showed that 84% of physicians reported alprazolam as being extremely problematic in terms of the severity and prolonged nature of the benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome after discontinuation. The benzodiazepines diazepam (Valium) and oxazepam were found to produce less severe withdrawal symptoms than alprazolam (Xanax) or lorazepam (Ativan).[16]
Alprazolam should never be abruptly discontinued if taken regularly for any length of time because severe withdrawal symptoms may occur. Severe psychosis has been reported in the medical literature from abrupt alprazolam withdrawal and death occurred from withdrawal-related seizures after gradual dose reduction, which suggests that alprazolam when being discontinued should be done so very slowly over a prolonged period of time to avoid severe withdrawal symptoms.[18]

Aren't legal drugs just modern medical marvels?

posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 08:43 PM
reply to post by DocMoreau

Look around it man, read articles, there's one about Eric-Pekka Auvinen that explains darn well the why. And I already know the "agents" kill these kids, they never suicide. The system does not want them to survive, if they do they can pass on the message. What message? visit my link, read around, educate yourself. New philosophers are executed, why do we have no more Platos and Nietzsches?

posted on Dec, 28 2007 @ 04:41 AM
reply to post by Radekus

I saw that article, and wasn't sure if that is what you were alluding too. I found it interesting in this case, and the one in Finland, that they have 'censored' their final thoughts. I know it can still be found, but in the Finland case, he seemed to create a step by step 'reaction' in his final thoughts that the 'authorities' would follow. Theyreacted exactly that way...

To all:
Do you think we have 'something' here? Should we re-present to the ATS community the theory that "Murray may have had issues, but something else is amiss"? Or should we just look at this, see how screwed up it is, and let others happen accross it natural if they look...

Looking at the photograph of Matthew Murray, I find it hard to imagine him being either a 'crazed shooter' or 'prophetic child'. Something looks almost meek about him. I think he tried to get 'real help' on several occasions, but didn't know where to turn. He was rejected by his peers, but forbidden to find his own peers or path. I also think that the 'help' that he was given, with the assistance of his 'still silent' parents, was no help at all. I am still trying to determine if it was negligence or very cold and calculated.

The mainstream just wants to forget it happened as soon as they can by lumping Murray into the 'crazy' pile, which he may well deserve. Personally, I am just trying to best listen to him in death, like it seemed no one did in life.
I don't like what he is telling me.

posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 01:42 AM
What do we really know about Matthew Murray? About the only thing we have heard are the incriminating internet postings. Have those been traced to the family computer situated in the dining room of his home? If he had not been kicked out of his house(and there is no evidence he was) why would he go to the YWAM house and asked for shelter? Where are the interviews with his family members, his neighbors, his co-workers? (He had a job at the time, though we don't even know where.) Too many loose ends here.

An interesting fact is that he purchased one of his pistols at "Dave's Guns." This very store supplied Platte Canyon High School attacker Duane Morrison. 53(9-27-06 Bailey, CO 2 dead) with three of the weapons traced to him. That store was also reported, very early in that investigation, to have supplied the Columbine killers(4-20-99) with some of their weapons.

And that same gun supplier seems to have a special relationship to local law enforcement:
One reason for (Dave)Anver's success is niche marketing. He has made a particular effort to court local law-enforcement officers looking to buy guns for their jobs. Today Dave's Guns sells more firearms to more cops than any other local shop.
Half of his $3.7 million in annual gun and ammunition sales are to law enforcement. Cops and ex-cops work at his store.

And where does Dave get a lot of his weapons? Let's see:
On July 15(1999), Aurora police took 206 guns to a local gun store, Dave's Guns, and received a $19,575 credit toward the purchase of future police supplies.

--Dave Anver, owner of Dave's Guns, has a good reputation with law-enforcement agencies. He buys police guns, sells police supplies and maintains police weapons.

--In the last three years, the Department of Corrections has shipped 80 semiautomatic pistols, some with pre-ban magazines, to Anver's store. Denver police sent him 197 used Remington shotguns in a 1996 trade for new shotguns.

--The Jefferson County Sheriff's Department, the agency investigating the Columbine High massacre, sold a few AR-15 assault rifles. Two cities in Jefferson County, Lakewood and Littleton, also sold AR-15s made before the assault weapons ban.

It would indeed be interesting to find out the chain of possession for the weapons owned by Matthew Murray. I wouldn't be surprised if some of those weapons came from a police inventory, maybe even sold to Murray by a cop moonlighting at Anver's store.

No need to start a new thread, IMO.

posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 12:43 PM
Keep looking around, you guys are onto something big here.
This would show government involvement in all shootings.
Freaked out yet? I know I am.

posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 01:48 PM
reply to post by Radekus

Thats what I am saying. I feel like I am a bit too freaked out by this to look too hard.
That is why I was thinking a new thread, to bring some safety in numbers, and more attention to the matter. Seriously.

I love Rabbit's Holes, but still am leery to where they lead. Will keep looking. Post any new details if you find them.

posted on Dec, 31 2007 @ 10:42 PM
Happy new YAR!!!!! MATEY!!!!!

a whole new year and whole new school shootings to come,
analyze that. World don't change, it's a loop.
Democracy->dictatorship->democracy->dictatorship, infinitum.

posted on Jan, 1 2008 @ 01:14 PM
When was Matthew Murray identified as a possible suspect? If they knew his name before the New Life Church shootings in Colorado Springs at 1pm, then they have to answer questions about what actions they took to interdict him, if any. The cops gave various versions of when they found out about him:

--....Colorado Springs police Sgt. Scott Schwall said police there didn't learn the Murray family home's address in Englewood until after the church shootings, and that a search did not begin until after dark.
--(Arvada police spokeswoman Susan) Medina said Arvada detectives did not go to Murray's home and speak to his family until 3 p.m., well after the second attack.
--....(Colorado Springs police Sgt. Scott Schwall) said the department received some information from the FBI well after the New Life shooting took place. He also declined to say what the information was.

Arvada police said they were looking at Murray as a possible suspect in the Sunday morning dormitory shooting before the Colorado Springs shooting. Police began searching the Arapahoe County home where Murray lived with his parents, neurosurgeon Donald S. Murray and his wife, Loretta, hours after the New Life shooting.
Arvada Police Chief Don Wick said that police were on Murray's trail early -- and happened to be at his home in unincorporated Arapahoe County Sunday afternoon when violence erupted in Colorado Springs, 65 miles away.
--(#1807) I did read that the Arvada cops had already gone to Murray’s parents’ house around noon yesterday with the search warrant, so that was even before he started the New Life rampage.

A solid tip was received at 10:30am, two and a half hours before the Colorado Springs attack:
But when that same author -- believed to be Murray -- posted Sunday that he wanted to kill Christians, a forum participant immediately contacted the FBI... (forum administrator)Istre also said his forum agreed to turn over all relevant information, and provided the FBI the Internet Protocol address of nghtmrchld26 to help confirm the poster's identity. ...
Denver FBI spokeswoman Rene Vonder Haar said the agency began an investigation immediately after receiving a phone call at 10:30 a.m. Sunday,but she refused to discuss the nature of the call. Vonder Haar said the information was passed on to police in Arvada, where two members of a missionary training center had been killed earlier Sunday, and Colorado Springs.
--Arvada police spokeswoman Susan Medina confirmed that the FBI passed on information regarding the mission center shootings about 10:30 a.m. She would not discuss the information in detail but said "we began work on that tip immediately."

So it sounds like the FBI got a solid tip with an internet address at 10:30am that morning and immediately passed it on. Did they take the internet protocal address, do a quick search of their databases, tack a home address to the poster, and pass that on to Arvada PD? In that case the Arvada PD should have been at Murray's home at 11:03am, when he made his last computer post(from his home computer). And the FBI spokesperson also admitted that they sent a warning to Colorado Springs. Did they send that warning to every other PD within a 100miles of Arvada, or just to Colorado Springs? Almost certainly, they knew Murray's name, address, and vehicle description two and a half hours later. That perhaps explains why the New Life Church seemed to anticipate what was about to happen:
New Life senior pastor Brady Boyd said security at the church had been beefed up after the early morning shootings in Arvada, but he did not elaborate and did not take questions.

foreknowledge by cops?
(#2597)I just received an email from a good friend of mine who attends "New Life Church" She said she noticed uniformed Police Officers in the parking lot while entering the 11 AM service and leaving afterwards.(shortly before 1pm, when the attack took place)

posted on Jan, 3 2008 @ 02:10 PM
reply to post by starviego

First off, Happy 2008 to all!

Second, Starviego, that is exactly what I have been trying to say all along. Reports have said that the police 'were on his trail' after the first incident. But if they were on his trail for almost twelve hours (nighttime) one would think that maybe he was heading to New Life, Jeanne Azzam did. She was a former police officer, how come current officers didn't stop him from even getting to New Life, I don't know.

There is also the aspect that has been mentioned, but I think relates to your point, why was Murray trying to stay in the Missionary Dorm? Had he been kicked out by his parents? Yet the police went to his 'home' after the first shooting. You would think that they could have put an APB out on his vehicle, and maybe someone would have noticed it along the 100 mile plus journey in the middle of the night. A time where very few autos are on the roads, so those that are should be all the more scrutinized when a armed shooter is on the prowl.

Also, I can't seem to find details at this time, but I am under the impression that there was a blizzard in Colorado on the 8th? Maybe I am wrong, but I have found photos from immediately afterward, with snow and slush on the streets. Am I correct in thinking there was a big storm? I don't know where to look fro 'past weather'. But I think that if there was a snowstorm happening as well, that there would be even less vehicles on the roads, and Murray could have been found if anyone was actually looking.

Sorry I don't have new facts, just supposition.

posted on Jan, 10 2008 @ 12:51 PM
Sorry to state that I have been overwhelmed by Stalker Attack Gate Keepers in the other threads I have posted lately here at ATS. Apparently, our 'theories' have struck a nerve, and I have been feeling the backlash. Nothing major, just name calling and strawman arguments left and right. Anyone else getting this?

Any other news?

posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 02:31 PM
After the shooting were over, police claimed Murray had been sending hate mail and threats of violence to the YWAM organization in the weeks prior, thereby implanting a plausible motive for the killing in the public mind.
--"It appears that the suspect had been kicked out of the program three years prior and during the past few weeks had sent different forms of hate mail to the program and/or its director," Detective Bradley Pratt wrote(in court papers filed the next day).

But important details were simply false. He had left YMAM two years earlier than reported, never contacted the branch of YWAM that booted him, and said nothing of a violent nature in the emails he sent several years--not weeks--before:
... the training center said that Murray left in 2002 -- five years ago, not three -- and that no one there can recall any visits or other communication from him since then.
--Police reports say Murray had been sending threatening e-mails to the organization, but there are two in the Denver area, and officials with Youth With a Mission Denver say they never received the threatening messages. Ronny Morris, the founder of King's Kids who operates Youth With a Mission Arvada, said he did receive the e-mails, but there were no specific threats. "It was all pretty black stuff," Morris said. "Generally, 'I hate Christians' and 'I hate YWAM.' "
"The communication implied Christians were 'hypocrites' with no threats of violence." (Arvada Cmdr. Kathy)Foos said Murray stopped e-mailing King's Kids officials after they asked him to.

Another bit of evidence used to implicate Murray in the crime was news that he had purchased ammo recently:

DRMN, 12-13-07
An employee at a UPS Store in Greenwood Village called police Sept. 13(three months before the shooting), after Murray had "multiple" boxes of ammunition delivered to a postal box there. Murray seemed nervous when he came to pick it up, the clerk told police. But police officers said there was nothing illegal about it, and Murray was never contacted, according to a search warrant affidavit for Murray's computer.
Greenwood Village police sent an officer there and he was shown .40 caliber ammunition that Murray was receiving in his postal box. The officer checked Murray's background and found no criminal activity was involved. "There's no criminal activity," the officer said in a radio report. "RP (responding party) just had some questions about what items can be sent through the mail." ....
Police discovered the earlier call from The UPS Store. A search of Murray's home took place a short time later. Court records show in Murray's room they found ammunition....

If no report was filed, how was this bit of info "discovered" so soon after the shooting? Did either the UPS clerk or the responding officer remember Murray's name and tell investigators(maybe even before his name was released publicly)? Why do I get the feeling that some kind of "file" was being kept on Murray and that both the bit about the "hate" mail and the ammo pick-up were already in that file when the crimes occured?

posted on Jan, 16 2008 @ 04:45 AM
reply to post by starviego

Sorry I didn't reply sooner. Very nice points. I have been away from my comp for a few days, and somehow missed the updates when I was on.

I will check back after fully immersing into the references.

posted on Jan, 23 2008 @ 01:35 PM
hi doc ran across this today. I hope its relevant. These were good kids. no mental illness apparent.
network suicides
what the heck is going it a case of weak personalities following a stonger, or together creating a a new life this bad..this was depressing..

posted on Jan, 27 2008 @ 02:41 PM
reply to post by Sys_Config

In this case, I think the copy cat suicides are only related in the 'fame' one can acquire, even posthumously. I know I never would have heard of any of those kids if they had lived, and I sincerely doubt I would have heard of the New Life shooter if he had not done what he did.

The conclusion I am starting to come to is that parents have no clue as to the ways that their children communicate these days. That many, have no idea what their actions are really doing to their kids, in the pursuit of their own goals. I also feel that the parents now are lacking certain skills on how to deal with children who grow up in the world we live in.

Good deeds are rarely rewarded. The media tries to spin the good news, but doom and gloom sell more ads. The ads that brainwash society into burning their candles at both ends in order to 'keep up with the Joneses' or whatever.

Speaking of brainwashing, it is no joke that the New Life shooter felt that he was the victim of a very concerted mind control program. Sure it is easy to dismiss him as a loon or nutter, but he was only coming to the realization of how manipulated he had been all of his life.

While I certainly don't condone his actions, I understand his despair, at least at some level. I also understand the desire to go out in a blaze of glory or in a suicide cult making its rounds among the media sources. You achieve in death a sort of 15 minutes of immortality, that is highly difficult to achieve without years of hard work.

Everyone wants to be remembered. These kids are seeing No Future, or the future they see is so gloomy, that they don't want to make life's travel constantly under a cloud.

And it isn't just these kids, its every 'depressed' individual medicating with Prozac, or self medicating with booze or smack. Or the extremely obese, who need 'comfort foods'. Or those addicted to shopping. Somewhere inside of each of them, each of us, there is at the very least, a slight tinge of what these individuals felt that led them to meet their end.

The only way I can describe that 'feeling' in words is something like this:

" Self Awareness of our future doom, sentient livestock working their burdens for the benefit of everyone but themselves. The freedom to do whatever you want, so long as the masters get their cut, and you don't disturb the status quo. Billions toil, chattel cattle struggle under the forked whips whistling in the hands of the selected few. Trapped in a box, with no sides, no top, or no key. Long after 'we', the slave masters will endure on the spoils reaped from the broken backs and minds of our sons and daughters. "

Desperation, Yo.

posted on Feb, 20 2008 @ 10:24 AM
For anyone researching the April 20, 1999 attack on Columbine High School:

Links to most of the 30,000+ pages of written documents and several dozen hours of audio related to the 4/20 attack on Columbine (up to a dozen attackers reported by witnesses, one reported to have been over the age of 30) released into the public domain by government agencies have been posted to

posted on Jun, 20 2008 @ 09:35 PM
I got a CD entitled "YWAM Core Report," produced by the ArvadaPD on the YWAM killings. Some tidbits and oddites:

12:00am, midnight: Murray arrives on scene at YWAM Arvada
approx 12:27am shooter fires clip with 15 rounds at victims, flees
12:29am 1st 911 call
1:25am "He eventually left the area around 1:25am, according to cell phone records"

[Comment: In other words, Matt stayed on scene for an hour and then escaped. Even though the police immediately began a thorough search of the area, including dogs and reverse 911 calls to area residents. The investigators don't bother to explain how Murray escaped the dragnet.]

Witness at the UPS store where Murray picked up his ammo: "Steve states Matthew told him he was trying to get into the army."

""Murray recently talked to an army recruiter about enlisting in the army reserves. The family did not know what happened with that."

Carlos(Andrade-Murray's employer) said that Matthew "had an interesting resume."

"Matthew was on medication since he was diagnosed with ADHD around kindergarten/1st grade. They(the parents) could not recall specifically the medication he had been on, though Murray(father) is a neurologist."

[Comment: I can't conceive that either parent would forget this, given that Matt had been taking medications for a decade at least. So what's the big mystery? According to the parents, Matt stopped taking any medications in 2002; though Xanax(Aprazolam) and amphetamines were discovered in his post-mortem tox screen.]

Jacinda Tredway, a friend of Matt's living in Tennessee: "Murray told her that he had received death threats and began talking about his conspiracy theories..... Murray mentioned the recent mall shootings in Omaha and told her that he had been doing some research and studying up on young people doing shootings."

"Murray would talk about conspiracies involving both YWAM and the pentacostal church. ...Murray told her he had big things in the works and that he had a revelation. ..."

"Matthew sent a text message to Steve Mariner(w/OTO) at approximately 6:42pm on December 8, 2007 stating he will not be able to make the (monthly)mass because of the weather. Steve Mariner was surprised to hear from Matthew because he was told to distance himself from the organization(in Sept). The Gnostic Mass was scheduled for 8:00pm on December 8, 2007 at 1001 E. 7th Avenue at the Metaphysical Research Society building."
"Matthew distanced himself from OTO with the exception of a few members."
"After eating his meal alone, Matthew left the restaurant after 7:00pm and was en route to the Gnostic Mass at Ad Astra Oasis, despite his earlier text. Matthew, as it was later discovered by the Colorado Springs Police Department, had a map of that location in his vehicle." According to Matthew's cellphone records, the cell site towers put Matthew in the vicinity of 725 S. Pennsylvania and 1101 E. Bayard in Denver from 8:12pm until approximately 9:29pm. Matthew was in the 700 block of S. Pennsylvania and the Gnostic Mass was at approximately the 700 block of N. Ogden, Pennsylvania and Ogden are one block apart."

[Comment: Murray tried to call Mariner three times the evening of 12-8-08. Interestingly, none of the three OTO members interviewed were asked outright if they had seen Murray in that time period.]

OTO member Jennifer Cali: "Jennifer admitted with their organization she is not allowed to share what their beliefs are....."
"Matthew would still attend masses. but he was not welcome to stay and be part of the group afterward."

Michelle Anzlovar
"Michelle, like ...other members, was reluctant to share what OTO specifically stood for....."

In 2004, Murray started sending disturbing emails that were "demonic, slanted toward satan."

"(his brother)Christopher knew his brother was involved in satanic worshipping. ....Christopher also knew Matthew was into witchcraft."

Could associates from the OTO have been the 'friends' diescribed here:

Murray's cousin Gable LaPorte: "Gabe said Matthew told him he had two or three friends who wanted him to do a "massive suicide" and they were trying to get Matthew to join them in a suicide pact."

"Matthew started talking about his research in "masonry, astrology, and upside down crosses."
In the summer of 2006, "he was involved with some friends as a group and they all dressed alike in black and they have all been abused."

poster on ex-pentacostal forum: "Previously, in two seperate chats she had with nghtmrchld26 he mentioned he had two friends who were interested in 'shooting' people."

tipster: "He called to let IO know when Matthew came to his church.... Matthew Murray told him he was doing research on Christian denominational type churches, Matthew Murray claimed his friends were doing the same thing, and afterwards would get together. The subject was concerned Matthew may have had an accomplice...."

Det. Vanderveen, Colo Springs PD: "Information was received there were potential bomb making components within the (Murray)residence. ....the ATF asked the officers within the residence to step out until a search could be completed. The ATF expressed concerns of potential explosives within the residence, although none of the explosives turned out to be valid. The ATF said they were going to conduct a "layer by layer" search of the bedroom of Matthew Murray, although the K-9 focused on one dresser drawer. The dog could "hit" on ammunition, along with bomb making components, but the ATF felt it was necessary to do a layer by layer search. The ATF was told to document each item they touched so it could be accurately documented. Agent Tabullo agreed to send reports to the Arvada Police Department, as well as the Colorado Springs Police Department. (As of 3-3-08 IO has yet to receive any ATF reports.)"
"The ATF stated they would need to remove items from Matthew's bedroom....."(pg54)

[Comment: Sounds to me like the local cops did not appreciate the Feds coming in and talking control of the scene, if even just for a short time.]

"(FBI) SA DiRito advised that he had received a telephone call from Tony Campos, who was with the Dept of Homeland Security in Washington D.C., who adivised that the White House was requesting any additional information about the incident specifically due to the possibility of a second shooting."

[Comment: Not sure what they mean here. No time is indicated so we don't know if this call came before the New Life shooting in Colo Springs(and if it did, how did they know there might be a second shooting?). And why would the White House even get involved in this local crime?]

The computer evidence was processed by the
"Rocky Mountain Regional Computer Forensics Laboratory"
Further digging reveals that the Regional Computer Forensics Laboratory (RCFL) Program "is a national network of FBI-sponsored, full service digital forensics laboratories and training centers that utilize the assistance of state and local agencies."

[Comment: In other words, the Feds took over this part of the investigation too.]

"(EMT)Kim advised that some of (fatally wounded victim)Tiffany's clothes had been partially cut off by on scene fire personnel. Kim noticed that Tiffany was cold and possibly in shock."

[Comment: Aren't you supposed to keep trauma victims warm? Nothing about any 'fire' personnel on the scene, according to the witness and cop statements. All four victims were carried out of the house by the cops and laid on stretchers manned by the Pridemark EMTs.]

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