"YOUR Columbine" - Gunman wrote of rejection as reason for revenge

You ask me to provide links to my own experience in life?
What is this with second hand information, isn't knowledge
gained in two ways? Acquired by the self, and acquired from others?
Anyways, I'm a bit sorry for being aggressive in my last post,
I'm happy you kept your cool on it. In short, I'm basing everything
on personal experience, if you want a link, perhaps, from someone else,
explaining a little bit of what's going on in the world, here you go:

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

Also, watch all parts of this documentary:
www.youtube.com...

There are a few wrongs in this documentary,
the whole idea of a kid lying in bed and suddenly
having homicidal thoughts coming to be is wrong.
There is always a reason. You are what your
environment makes you. Listen to the real quotes
of the kids.

[edit on 19-12-2007 by Radekus]

Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

Somehow, he literally fulfilled this prophecy, lol.

Just to let everyone know (not that you wouldn't know) this is not what being a Christian is about. What has or is taking place at this church and inside the family homes (if accurate) is not Christian. Unfortunately there are many more churches out there like this as I have waded thru them in search of a loving bible church. Unfortunately this young man had no control as a child and was subjected to a twisted take on Christianity.

I will usually know within an hour if a church is not right and I leave. Christianity is about love and if you are being taught via abuse and high pressure tactics then you are not in a God loving Church.

reply to post by Radekus

No, I don't expect you to provide links to your life, that is a ridiculous assumption. Thanks for the links to the videos. I am basing my position off of my life experience and research. Not to say that I suffered 'religious' abuse, but I will say that I have seen many things first hand. It is outrageous what some parents are doing to their kids.

You say that you can relate to Murray. Hopefully you have not had to deal with as much trauma as he. I am sorry that anything like this could happen to anyone. Hopefully you will find a way to heal, and not be compelled to act out like Murray. Maybe providing more of your insight of the 'church elite' types you encountered, or specific examples of how people tried to condition you, will help you be proactive instead of reactive.

In regard to him fulfilling the prophecy, exactly! But more of a nervous laugh. As in, who are the church 'elite' that knew that he was a 'prophetic child'? If one does research into some of the mind-control techniques Murray described, you will find the use of 'triggers' to set off programmed behaviors or 'conditioned responses'.

An example is a Pastor giving a few impassioned lines in a sermon, and the conditioned "Amen" from the congregation in response. I doubt 10% of Christians know that "Amen" is "Amin" from Arabic, meaning "So Be It". It is a 'formula' that the congregation practices to indoctrinate the young into the ritual. A young child may not know the prayers and hymns, but they can 'participate' in saying Amen.

Perhaps Murray did exactly what this particular home school/religious upbringing raised hime to do? That he 'was' mind-controlled by the church, and that programming was activated so that this would happen. All in all the collateral damage for something like this was surprisingly small. Apparently there were hundreds of people coming out of church at the time? Maybe not, but thats what I thought I read.

The reason? Hmmm... Maybe to show how 'battle ready' the church is? I am not sure. Homegrown Terrorism Act or Gun Control? He did say that he didn't understand the Pastor's hypocrisy. Was that Pastor, Ted Haggard? If we look at the 'clues' that Murray left behind, he mentions a motley crew of characters, Aliester Crowley, Ted Haggard, Timothy McVeigh, The Columbine Shooters, and Ricky Rodriguez. What is the tie that binds?

reply to post by jbondo

Obviously what happened to this young man, and possibly others like him, is not what Christianity is 'supposed' to be about. Unfortunately, at least in regard to this 'superchurch', it appears that something very sinister is lurking under its veil. I personally think that operations like this one are brainwashing scams masquerading as a religion. And should be stopped.

I am not sure who has the power or 'cohones' to make an in depth investigation into the true causes of Murray's actions. I am sure New Life Church wants all this to go away, and not draw attention to their actions and practices. There are probably New Life members right now who are in conflict over what is going on now, and what has gone on.



DocMoreau

reply to post by DocMoreau

Here is an account of what Larry Bourbanais saw:

www.denverpost.com...
"Near an entryway in the church, Bourbonnais came upon the gunman and an armed male church security guard who was there with his gun drawn but not firing, he said. Bourbonnais said he pleaded with the armed guard to give him his weapon. "Give me your handgun. I've been in combat, and I'm going to take this guy out," Bourbonnais recalled telling the guard. "He kept yelling, 'Get behind me! Get behind me!' He wouldn't hand me his weapon, but he wouldn't do anything." There was an additional armed security guard there, another man, who also didn't fire, Bourbonnais said..... At about that moment, a female guard with a drawn handgun turned a corner and walked toward the gunman and yelled "Surrender!" Bourbonnais said. The gunman pointed a handgun at the woman and fired three shots, Bourbonnais said. She returned fire and just kept walking toward the gunman pressing off round after round. The female guard(Jean Assam) fired off about a dozen shots. ... The guard fired as many as six bullets into him, according to sources."

[Comment: When an assault rifle goes up against a pistol, it is the pistol that usually loses. So why would the perp suddenly start firing with a pistol, which apparently jammed up after three shots. Maybe he heard a trigger word ('Surrender') and suddenly froze up. And two male armed guards don't shoot at the perp and the perp doesn't shoot at them, leaving another to grab the glory. Hmmm... ]


Now the cops are saying he commited suicide:

www.cnn.com...
"The death of Matthew Murray has been ruled a suicide," the El Paso County Coroner's Office said in a statement. "It should be noted that he was struck multiple times by the security officer, which put him down. He then fired a single round killing himself," the statement said.

Unfortunately none of the four witnessess--Bourbanais, Assam, and the other two armed guards--is on record as supporting this assertion. And it appears Jeanne Assam may not be all she claims to be:

www.freerepublic.com...
(#884)"Another interesting piece of information: [daughter] has been doing bible study with a lady who is a police officer and a “sharp shooter.” Recently she felt led to contact the church and offer her services as a “security guard” because she felt that there was a risk of some looney doing something crazy. She was apparantely the one who killed the shooter."

Originally posted by DocMoreau
You say that you can relate to Murray. Hopefully you have not had to deal with as much trauma as he.

Not the same, I didn't go through fanatic religious cultisms,
but I do know what it's like to be physically and mentally
abused. I was reading a sociology book the other day,
out of pure curiosity, all that's there is just supporting what
I already know about the world, I'm too smart for my own good.

I am sorry that anything like this could happen to anyone. Hopefully you will find a way to heal, and not be compelled to act out like Murray.

I always thought of my end being by a head wound with a semi empty bottle of whiskey on the table, lol. Better be whiskey, rum sucks. Seriously now, I'm too busy acquiring knowledge to waste my life in blazing gunfire. I want to understand this world more. There is a purpose for everyone of us on this planet, to learn, to improve one self, see everyone's position, instead of worshiping a one sided ego-centric point of view (most people do that). I'm also tired of society forcing you to conform with guilt, if that don't work, they try intimidation and punishment, pathetic really, I'm a free spirit, I don't conform to no one's standards. We're here to improve ourselves anyways, not to achieve high social status, people are dumb for doing this, I get really tired of hearing people, especially women, talk their mouths off how they've made it big and how great they are. Lame man, lame. shows insecurity and the need to be noticed, they know they're pieces of crap and want people to think highly of them. I ramble sometimes...

Maybe providing more of your insight of ... specific examples of how people tried to condition you, will help you be proactive instead of reactive.

It starts in school, going through all the forms of brainwash would take too long, and I'd have to talk it over with my friends, I blocked a lot from high school and elementary, a sort of defense mechanism. All I can tell you is that first you become anti-conformist, then once you have your own head on your shoulders, and think for yourself, unlike everyone else, then the real bad tripping begins. School brainwashes people into being pro-gay with their bs sex ed classes. Then the media pushes the new fads now a days like emo and gangsta, disgusting. One promotes bisexuality while the other promotes anti-social behavior. School is a very socialist place, oh, everyone is equal, the American dream, blah blah bull crap, no one is equal, the equal opportunity is there, hell, what am I saying, not even. Not everyone's opinion is worth listening to, and yea, I find it annoying as hell to see everyone having something to say, even on subjects they have no clue about yet open their vile and disgusting mouths anyways. Most people are too busy glorifying themselves and their achievements to realize that there's other human beings around them. School teaches ego-centrism, socialism (basically making people think they care for everyone, but in fact it's illusion, they only pretend to so it makes them feel good about themselves), bisexuality, and anti-social behavior. That's school for you, breeding new generations of hateful self-absorbed self-righteous zealots who are out here only for themselves and could care less about the hobo sleeping on the bench, they'll wake him up and tell him to leave, making it even harder for him to find a good place to crash for the night. Stupidity like what looks good and what doesn't in society is also annoying, most people are alcoholics, yet we have all these stupid rules about not being allowed to drink in public. I could go on, but I'm running out of characters.

In regard to him fulfilling the prophecy, exactly! But more of a nervous laugh. As in, who are the church 'elite' that knew that he was a 'prophetic child'? If one does research into some of the mind-control techniques Murray described, you will find the use of 'triggers' to set off programmed behaviors or 'conditioned responses'.

Maybe, but I'm leaning more towards the need to glorify oneself in
a desperate act of revenge before ending it all. I think it's Auvinen
who said that he and people like him are normal consequences
brought by an abnormal world. and I agree. That could be
considered self conditioning if anything.

Perhaps Murray did exactly what this particular home school/religious upbringing raised hime to do? That he 'was' mind-controlled by the church, and that programming was activated so that this would happen.

Nah, you don't just click from a key word, you prepare for a long time to do this sort of thing, it's done consciously, driven by the need for revenge, fueled by constant human insolence, you get what you give.

The reason? Hmmm... Maybe to show how 'battle ready' the church is? I am not sure. Homegrown Terrorism Act or Gun Control?

Naah, that's just the end result, politicians use that to further the nwo agenda.

He did say that he didn't understand the Pastor's hypocrisy. Was that Pastor, Ted Haggard?

I'd go into generalization, usually a person like that doesn't have specific targets anymore, since society is his enemy, he generalizes, he probably meant all pastors. But yes, his statement's support would be people such as Ted haggard, why not?

If we look at the 'clues' that Murray left behind, he mentions a motley crew of characters, Aliester Crowley, Ted Haggard, Timothy McVeigh, The Columbine Shooters, and Ricky Rodriguez. What is the tie that binds?

The whole satanism aspect is just him rebelling against Christianity, the anti of Christianity is obviously satanism. These kids tend to resent everything that causes them pain, going into the opposite extremes. I'm enlightened though, I know better I know, I know, I'm just kidding, I still have a long way to go before I perfect myself. The general people are just the source of his greater pain, the school shooters he talks about are his brothers in arms who fight the stupid and unfair of the world. clear enough? Oh wow, eye opening when you bother to understand eh?
Maybe I'm giving out too much info, now the gov is gonna track them down
in the early stages and put them on drugs. Naaaaah. They already do that to everyone, hahaha. So many kids on Prozac, sickening.

Originally posted by starviego
Maybe he heard a trigger word ('Surrender') and suddenly froze up. And two male armed guards don't shoot at the perp and the perp doesn't shoot at them, leaving another to grab the glory. Hmmm...

You might actually be unto something there...

Recently she felt led to contact the church and offer her services as a “security guard” because she felt that there was a risk of some looney doing something crazy. She was apparantely the one who killed the shooter."

Crazy...




[edit on 20-12-2007 by Radekus]

I would not be surprised to see an exodus from New Life Church.

As much blame as this young man would have shouldered, IMO equal amounts should be placed on the church and his parents if the current info is accurate.

IMHO they should be all put in jail for a good 5 years.
They're responsible for his actions.

But I also find it extremely interesting that Murray attempted so many different 'faiths' in the three years since he was booted from the 12 week bible study program.

Why? He may have been like hundreds of millions of other individuals who don't find the solace they are looking for from the three traditional Abrahamic religions.

reply to post by DocMoreau


What, cat got your tongue? You don't wanna talk with me anymore?

Why do I even bother.

reply to post by Radekus


Um, no cat. Just real life keeping me too busy. Work work work.

I agree that there should be some 'justice' here for all the kids like Murray who are undergoing this sort of trauma. Not sure how unless people who can see things how they really are, work to bring the truth out, like we are trying to do here. Right now, all we have is theory and conjecture backed up by circumstantial 'evidence'. But I think if we can keep digging...

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. So I will re-phrase.

"I think there is something to be noted that Murray rejected his fanatical faith based upbringing, and looked to several other faith based organizations in response. Two of those organizations, The O.T.O. and the Mormon Church have been labeled as 'cults' at various times in their histories. While I myself do not know enough about the OTO or the Mormon church to try to judge the validity those historic labels, there is a tinge of sad irony that Murray would work so hard to replace one oppressive fanaticism with another, but still not find solace among the spectrum of many faiths that he tried"

It would not be of note that Murray rejected his seemingly fanatical upbringing and attempted to find a new 'religion' to be fanatical about, except that as a result of not finding a faith that 'fit his needs', he went on a shooting and killing spree. Unlike the hundreds of millions that you described, Murray acted out in aggression directly at his 'upbringing'. Abrahamic or not. Millions of people are able to reject the 'big-three' and not feel compelled to go on a rampage after not finding anything better.


Perhaps I would rather believe the anti-social diatribes he wrote about being mind-controlled by his church and family, than to think he was just another nut-job. That I would rather believe that his mental illness came from the way he was 'nurtured', when just as easily, Murray could have been suffering from one of the many biochemical disfunctions that often make their onset in early adulthood, and include delusions as a symptom.

Something about this story struck a chord with me, and was singing that the 'party line' just isn't 'right'. I am just trying to be the 'listener' to what Murray was saying, and give him the benefit of the doubt, since it seems that no one else did.. It doesn't seem like anyone took him seriously enough, and that only reinforced the situation. Maybe we can come to some understanding here, and it can help prevent things like this in the future from ever happening.

DocMoreau

reply to post by DocMoreau


Did I shed some light on the matter at least?
I hope I did. Not easy to not do one line posts.

Interesting discussion.

I wonder was Murray on anti-depressants?

It would be a common thread in these massacre attacks.

Satanism aspect? What satanism aspect? You mean the OTO? Oh please absolutely nothing to do with Satan. Most OTO members don't acknowledge anything of the christian religion, they have their hosts of pagan deities and holy guardian angels.

OTO is not a cult. They do not suck you in and keep you. Oh sure there might be a chapter out there that is being run by a looney who tries to induce as many young men or women as he can into his sex magick rituals, but at least the members of the OTO aren't children like the Catholic Church's victims are.

Mormon-ism...100% cult in every single way.
L. Ron Hubbard pretty much stole Scientology from the Mormons,
there insane belief system is pretty close.

Oh as for the "suicide"...odd that a police officer and sharp shooter would hit him in the body six times, when they are trained to take down a perp with head shots. How does a man shot six times, raise a gun to his face to take his life when there are three armed, plus one unarmed man surrounding him?

There were conflicting reports, they killed him, he didn't kill himself.
They don't want these kids to survive, because they would become
celebrities almost, they would open their mouths and people would listen,
the system does not want this. The system does not like being exposed.
And I know, satanism is a philosophy if anything, nothing to do with
religion, well, some people think that way and do weird rituals and
play around with jesus bashing and cross burning, but that's just
those weird stupid exceptions.

Originally posted by Radekus
reply to post by DocMoreau

 

Did I shed some light on the matter at least?
I hope I did. Not easy to not do one line posts.

Yes you did. Thanks. I agree, they don't want these kids to be heard, thats for sure.

But still, the whole 'prophetic child' slant to this, combined with the 'stand-off with security until the female officer approaches and yells 'SURRENDER' being odd, especially considering that Murray was loaded to the gills.

Also, what time were the police at his home, after the first shooting, but before he went to New Life the next morning? What time did he post his 'manifesto', and where was he? Did the police just miss him? Also, where did he get all the firearms and ammunition? Was that stored at the house, where the police missed him, or did he get it from somewhere else? As far as I know, Murray was fairly broke, how did he afford to buy all those guns and ammunition? DOes anyone know these types of details from the incident?

DocMoreau



[edit on 24/12/2007 by DocMoreau]

reply to post by Legalizer


Legalizer, you make some very interesting points.

For me, the OTO may not be a 'cult', but to the mainstream, OTO is too 'out there' and is very much a cult. Mormons on the other hand, try their very best to be portrayed as "Christians", although many of their actions and beliefs are somewhat 'blasphemous'. Although much of America looks at the Mormons as strange, I doubt many consider it a 'cult' even though it should be.

More interesting for me, in the limited holiday research I been able to do, is that I have found sources that say that certain Church of Latter Day Saints rituals are based on Freemason rituals. The same is said about Ordo Templi Orientis, and its Freemason origins. I will look for the links, but don't have the time right now.

How that plays into this saga, if at all, will be very interesting. I am not trying to get flamed by the Freemason contingency here at ATS, but something is very strange here. Maybe one of the many here, could explain, without giving any secrets, why Freemason rituals would be used in these two 'religious movements'. Would any of those rituals be used at New Life Church?

I have often wondered if Murray was either a lurker or user of ATS. I know that there are various resources our there with similar topics, but it gets harder and harder not to come across ATS while searching these themes.
DocMoreau

The OTO's appropriation of Masonic ritual elements stems from two things
1) OTO magick is based heavily on Egyptian mysticism as is Masonic ritual
2) Aleister Crowley formed the OTO and was a Mason.

Groups have to exhibit certain behavior to truly be a cult.
Google "Signs of a cult" and you'll get page loads of basically the same info.
Pick your favorite.

Disagree with the mormon church and you can lose your wife (and home with her), and your kids, and status in their cultish community.

Disagree with your OTO leader and the worste you get is some group infighting and occasionally a break off sect that just becomes irrelevant. Sometimes a lawsuit will arise when these instances get dirty. There might be some black magick spells slung around, for all they are worth, which isn't much.

reply to post by Legalizer


I wonder how many of these 'warning signs' apply to New Life Church, especially back with Ted Haggard still leading the services...

If you look at Murray's online posts, he describes numerous instances where these 'warning signs' would have been apparent, if anyone was listening.

Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.

Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.
No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.
No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.
Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.
There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.
Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.
There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.
Followers feel they can never be "good enough".
The group/leader is always right.
The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.

www.rickross.com...

One has to remember that Murray left New Life Church, and attempted to find fulfillment in the 'cult-like' O.T.O. and Mormonism. I do not know enough about any of the three to label them anything but "peculiar".
DocMoreau

Here's the OTO website
Tried to find a good youtube video, but their group ceremonies are kept private.

You'll find plenty of lesser banishing rituals and some other rituals by lone performers, some footage of Crowley. All kind of silly, so glad I never made that special effects laden video I wanted to do many years ago. Embarrassing.

Here's a crazy cartoon about mormons

Magic Mormon Underwear

Murray's need to find a group to validate his life is the reason he went from New Life to OTO to Mormons. His whole life was surrounded by religion, and in the end its what killed him and those people he gunned down.