Is Islamofascism a correct term to use describing terrorists?

Originally posted by centurion1211

No, because none of those religions currently has "some" people engaged in fascist-like terroristic actions.

Your post is just a derivative of the tired, old deflection that attempts to excuse today's muslim extremism with the actions taken by people of other religions sometimes centuries ago ("some" muslims were being terrorists then, too).

Christian fundamentalists in the US are engaged in terrorist activities - as I understand it they have killed or attempted to kill doctors and pro-choicers. This is terrorism. Just because you agree or disagree with the objective does not qualify something as terrorism or not. The Islamic fundamentalists did not emerge overnight. Nothing excuses their behaviour but it may help us to understand it if we actually examine the causes of this effect. Understanding is our best hope of combatting it - further force can only make matters worse.

Currently it is a battle against ignorance. Like many home-schooled Christian fundamentalists, those who follow the extreme forms of Islam are kept in a state of ignorance. They are told what they can and can't read, what they can and can't think, what they can and can't do. They are told that anything contrary to this is evil. It is very hard to reason with that mentality.

As real problem as it is, it is not fascism, anyone who describes it as such knows nothing about fascism and is just being intellectually lazy. They are however, a problem, but certainly from my perspective no less a problem than any other form of religious fundamentalism.

Kilgore Trout,

There is a fascinating scholarship emerging on the intellectual linkage between Nazi intellectual thinkers and the birth of radical Islam. Jeffrey Herf (at the University of Maryland) is currently writing a book that should illuminate some of these issues. He hasn't published an (free) academic article on it yet, but here are a few lectures and popular publications where you can glimpse some of his ideas. In addition

www.zeit.de...

To be fair this lecture doesn't give a systematic intellectual history (that he has wildly suceeded in the past), but is upcoming book should address this very issue in a more systematic

I've been reading and following this thread since the first few posts and I think I understand it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but, if we're refering to individuals, then maybe no, a muslim can't be an Islam-o-facist. Not personally...I think.

But, as I understand it, the government they are subject to, CAN be Islamofacist, if that is what their laws and rules present them as.

So, a shiite ayatollah can't be declared an Islamofacist, but, say, the Republic of Iran could be considered an Islamofacist state?

Am I getting it?
Cuhail

Good thread, by the way. OP

Well I think individuals can be fascists even if they aren't part of the government if they subscribe to fascist ideologies. There were clearly fascists in Germany in 1931 even though the government was by no means fascist.

Originally posted by Kacen

Al Qaeda

Haven't you gotten the memo, Kacen? Al Qaeda doesn't exist either, according to some...

Originally posted by pai mei
What exists it could be called Islamic Inquisition - those islamic people that would like everyone obey their rules like : wear a scarf or be killed. It resembles the middle ages , has nothing to do with fascism

[edit on 15-12-2007 by pai mei]

Yes, it gets right back o what I continuously say. This whole "war on terrorism" bit is nothing less than a renewed crusade by the two warring religions known as Islam and Christianity...

Originally posted by Kacen
Fascism is a dictatorship not democracy; we're a democracy now, and in addition, to reiterate, a dictatorship is not the one thing needed for Fascism.

Kacen, my dear friend... There has never been a true democracy... America is a Republic, not a democracy. A true democracy is like socialism, it'll never work. Why not? Because in a true democracy, the few rreign over the many. America has a representational government, republic. Always has...

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
The Nazis did not support Islamic 'fanatics'

Reeealy, now?

Dr. Serge Trifkovic documents the similarities between Al Husseini's brand of radical Islam and Nazism in his book The Sword of the Prophet. He noted parallels in both ideologies: anti-Semitism, quest for world dominance, demand for the total subordination of the free will of the individual, belief in the abolishment of the nation-state in favor of a "higher" community (in Islam the umma or community of all believers; in Nazism, the herrenvolk or master race), and belief in undemocratic governance by a "divine" leader (an Islamic caliph, or Nazi führer).

The Nazis provided Al Husseini with luxurious accommodations in Berlin and a monthly stipend in excess of $10,000. In return, he regularly appeared on German radio touting the Jews as the "most fierce enemies of Muslims," and implored an adoption of the Nazi "final solution" by Arabs. After the Nazi defeat at El Alamein in 1942, Al Husseini broadcast radio messages on Radio Berlin calling for continued Arabic resistance to Allied forces. In time, he came to be known as the "Fuhrer's Mufti" and the "Arab Fuhrer."

There is a wealth of information to say otherwise, Mr. Kilgore Trout

Thank ya

[edit on 16-12-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

reply to post by KilgoreTrout

Christian fundamentalists in the US are engaged in terrorist activities - as I understand it they have killed or attempted to kill doctors and pro-choicers.

Hmmmm. "are engaged"


Are engaged? When was the last time someone killed another person or group of people all in the name of their Christian God?

Can you please link me to some news telling about all the terrorism being created in the name of Jesus Christ right now? Because I must live a very sheltered life - I know of none.


[edit on 16-12-2007 by greeneyedleo]

Originally posted by greeneyedleo
Can you please link me to some news telling about all the terrorism being created in the name of Jesus Christ right now? Because I must live a very sheltered life - I know of none.


[edit on 16-12-2007 by greeneyedleo]

I don't know of any instances like that, really..

However, as everyone is quite aware, I'm quite emphatic about the whole "war on terrorism" being a renewed crusade by Islam and Christianity... I think the evidence speaks for itself.. Also, I think what Kilgore was referring to were the attacks on abortio clinics and such, which are typically done by Christians. In some people's eyes, that could very well be taken as a form of terrorism indeed..

[edit on 16-12-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Quick Yahoo search found this, GEL,

Christian Terrorists Kill 44, Wound 118 in Attacks in Northeast India

Christian Terrorist Cell Caught in Texas

The Infamous Hall of Christian Terrorist Organizations of the World

Don't assume, my dear friend with the emerald eyes, that because you haven't ever focused on something, it doesn't exist.

Peace,
Cuhail

Its a label.

Its convinient.

Its a soundbyte for the "MTV Generation".

It comes off the tongue easier than "Islamic Fundamentalist" and it enables those who can't separate individuals from the general population to generalise.

In propaganda terms its fodder for bigots and those who maybe don't necessarily understand the whole picture. Its the same as "Jerry" that got used in WW2, and "Commie" that was used in the Cold War, or even "The N Word" that was used to describe blacks during the slavery era.

The psyche behind it is that people don't want to think in terms of individuals, because that would humanise them. So those who seek to propagate conflict with an enemy use a label, which demonises instead.

The way I see it is that to underline the absurdity of labels, you have to use them properly, in similar context

Theres a debate above about Christofacists. I'd sat that the radical anti-abortionist movement in the US fits that bill.

The IRA were/are Catholofacists.

PNAC represents Amerofacism.

Any "exclusive" branding could be descibed as facistic in real terms, as promotion of the product and only referencing to the product is corporate facsim.

Think about it next time you go to your preferred burger joint. You could be a McFacist.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
The Nazis did not support Islamic 'fanatics'

Reeealy, now?

Dr. Serge Trifkovic documents the similarities between Al Husseini's brand of radical Islam and Nazism in his book The Sword of the Prophet. He noted parallels in both ideologies: anti-Semitism, quest for world dominance, demand for the total subordination of the free will of the individual, belief in the abolishment of the nation-state in favor of a "higher" community (in Islam the umma or community of all believers; in Nazism, the herrenvolk or master race), and belief in undemocratic governance by a "divine" leader (an Islamic caliph, or Nazi führer).

The Nazis provided Al Husseini with luxurious accommodations in Berlin and a monthly stipend in excess of $10,000. In return, he regularly appeared on German radio touting the Jews as the "most fierce enemies of Muslims," and implored an adoption of the Nazi "final solution" by Arabs. After the Nazi defeat at El Alamein in 1942, Al Husseini broadcast radio messages on Radio Berlin calling for continued Arabic resistance to Allied forces. In time, he came to be known as the "Fuhrer's Mufti" and the "Arab Fuhrer."

There is a wealth of information to say otherwise, Mr. Kilgore Trout

Thank ya

It is all very well being smug but you said 'proof' and you have provided one man's opinion. Not the same thing by a long chalk. More so, all he does is confirm what I said that Husseini was given refuge by the Nazis. So he had to earn it - does that make him a fanatical Muslim or just a deposed ruler looking for a hand-out? The relationship between the Germans and the Turks goes way back, all the way back to the second crusade.

Ever heard the saying that my enemy's, enemy is my friend. Well that sums up the German/Turkish-Muslim thang...

Kilgore, I suppose you're one of those who think that Islamic radicalism was the creation of the U'S government as late as 1973?

Really... now, come on...

[edit on 16-12-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by neformore

Theres a debate above about Christofacists. I'd sat that the radical anti-abortionist movement in the US fits that bill.

Eric Rudolph, The Olympic Bomber:
A ”Christian Terrorist”?

Even Timothy McVeigh is considered by some to be a Christian Terrorist-
Timothy McVeigh: A CHRISTIAN TERRORIST?

The IRA was the first to come to mind as well. I saw in my searches many referals to Indonesian Christians performing terrorist acts and forced conversions.

Now Buddifacists? There's a belief system that can't support the label of facist.

Cuhail

An Islamofascist is an interesting term. This does not make them a terrorist necessarily, and is not synonymous with terrorism. The word 'Terrorist' does not exist or hold any merit in language any more so than 'terrorist', but our culture is creating another more sinister form of 'Terror' that may or may not have anything to do with terrorism. We are connecting "Terrorist" "Terror" and "Terrorism" to an Arab mold(or any mold that the government says).

We live in a world where our language is getting so confused with these subliminal messages in the words themselves.

How is Democracy interchangeable with Freedom?

How is Terrorist interchangeable with an Arab who practices Islam and hates America? (I know many people that fit this description yet have not engaged in terror.)

How can we take two words, and put them together to formulate the proper noun for which to call the enemy(Islamofascism)?

We have taken a tactic of war (terrorism) and gave it a face. All-in-all I see these 'Terrorists' as nothing but murderers. There crime is not Terror.... it's murder.

p.s. my dog terrorizes my cat on a daily basis, but I am sure you won't find her on any FBI list because she's not Arab and my cats not America.

Again in order to say whether Christians (abortionist bombers) are fascists it is again necessary to define exactly what we mean by fascism. To be sure there have been Christian fascists in the past (The Romanian Iron Guard Springs to mind). But I think with the abortionist doctors you are dealing with something completely different. To use Nolte's formulation again

Anti-Communism
Anti-Liberalism
Anti-Conservatism
Leadership Principle
Party-Army
Aim of Totalitarianism

Are the Christian conservatives Anti-Communist? Yes. Are they Anti-Liberal? Well a difficult question, but for the sake here we'll say yes. Anti-Conservative? I'll say yes again. Do they have the Leadership Principle? No, there is no single leader that they listen to (as in the case of Mussolini, Hitler, etc.) Do they have a Party-Army? No, there really isn't a singular organized party that supports their radical views. Do they have the aim of totalitarianism? Debatable, but I'll say yes (albeit defined differently than Stalin/Hitler)

However, if you don't subscribe to two of the six then its not really fair to call them fascist. They are different. These terms have specific meanings, and while the (for example) Taliban clearly conforms to these definitions, crazed abortion bombers don't really fit the bill. In fact, I can think of no historians definition of fascism that would encompass these deluded individuals.

Originally posted by Kacen
[Umm. Even the Islamic world acknowledges theres an Al Qaeda. They've existed before 9/11, it's documented.

Al Qaeda did exist before 9/11 but in not in quite the same context as the powers that be leads us to believe.

Al Qaeda was used by Osma Bin Ladin only 'after' 9/11. I am not aware of Osama Bin Ladin using the name before this date.

Due to the fantastical budgets of Militarywood Productions I could be wrong and the propaganda machine has led me away from the truth

If you know of any instances of name of Al Qaeda being used in the same context as post-9/11 I'll be more than happy to eat my hat

Al Qaeda, who is not afraid to kill -anyone- who gets in their way, whether Muslim or not, Sunni or Shiite, they'll kill -anyone.

No doubting that. Western military training teaches pragmatism and efficiency.

So many jokes I could make but I will refrain. ;3

Yeah, wrong turn of phrase me thinks

[edit on 16/12/2007 by skibtz]

I'm stunned there is actually disagreement here. Its like discussing why Picard was bald in start trek. I mean all those years in the future, they must have had a next gen hair club for men right? I guess there is discussion about both topics but in the end its all make believe.

Why hasn't a terror event happened? Even a mall bombing or car bombing anything? I mean little events, to really terrorize the people. The government knows we know about false flags now and they are scared if they do another we may not buy it.

Its all a game as to how much they can deceive us. Islamofascist groups, IRA, all of em are government projects to terrorize the people so the governments can push marshal law legislation like cameras everywhere, gun laws, privacy laws all to save us. We are so lucky!

Originally posted by DJMessiah

Originally posted by Ironclad
All muslims are Islamofascists. Some just dont show it.

The words are there in the qoran, plain as day "kill all who refuse Islam".

Then show us where it says this and what it says before and after the so called verse.

Since you put it in quotes ("kill all who refuse Islam."), I'd like you to post this direct surrah.

Man the List of Anti-Jew & Anti-Christian is in nearly every part of the Qoran. And There are numerous versus that Condone & encourage the Killing & slaughter of Non-Muslims, Non-believers & Infidels.

Don't try to tell me This is all just misenterpretation..., cause thats a load of crap...!!

Quotes from the Qoran:

Don't bother to warn the disbelievers. Allah has blinded them. Theirs will be an awful doom. 2:6

Disbelievers will be burned with fire. 2:39, 2:90

Only those Jews and Christians who convert to Islam will be rewarded with heaven. 2:62

Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers. 2:98

Only evil people are disbelievers. 2:99

For disbelievers is a painful doom. 2:104

Believers must retaliate. Those who transgress will have a painful doom. 2:178

Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kil them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2

Fight them until "religion is for Allah." 2:193

War is ordained by Allah, and all Muslims must be willing to fight, whether they like it or not. 2:216

The disbelievers, they are the wrong-doers. 2:254

Those who disbelieve will be fuel for the Fire. 3:10

Those who disbelieve shall be overcome and gathered unto Hell. 3:12

Allah will punish disbelievers in this world and the next. They will have no helpers. 3:56

Don't believe anyone who is not a Muslim. 3:73

Those who disobey Allah and his messenger will be burnt with fire and suffer a painful doom. 4:14

For disbelievers, We prepare a shameful doom. 4:37

Oppose and admonish those who refuse to follow Muhammad. 4:63

Allah will bestow a vast reward on those who fight in religious wars. 4:74

Believers fight for Allah; disbelievers fight for the devil. So fight the minions of the devil. 4:76

Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89

The disbelievers are an open enemy to you. 4:101

Allah has stirred up enmity and hatred among Christians. 5:14

Jews and Christians are evil-livers. 5:59

Those who deny the truth of Islam will be punished by Allah. 6:5

Those who disbelieve will be forced to drink boiling water, and will face a painful doom. 6:70

"We drowned them in the sea: because they denied Our revelations." 7:136

"Cut the root of the disbelievers." Destroy the unbelievers. 8:7

Those that the Muslims killed were not really killed by them. It was Allah who did the killing. 8:17

Don't let the disbelievers think they can escape. They are your enemy and the enemy of Allah. 8:59-60

Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. 9:5

Those who submit and convert to Islam will be treated well. (Those who don't submit will be killed. 9:6

The "Religion of Truth" (Islam) must prevail, by force if necessary, over all other religions. 9:33

Those with Muhammad are ruthless toward disbelievers and merciful toward themselves. 48:29

This is just the tip of the iceburg, this book is filled with this sort of stuff from start to finish!!!


[edit on 12/16/2007 by Ironclad]