FLIGHT 93 - The Biggest 911 Smoking Gun!

reply to post by OrionStars

This is the way legitimate debate works. One opponent presents a position and does not have to substantiate at that time.

The second, in challenge, must provide substantiated points of argument of opposition.

Then the first opponent must substantiate original position at that time to dispute or refute his or her opponent.

That sounds fair enough. Let's give it a whirl shall we.

Ivan stated that Flight 93 did not crash in Shanksville, Pennsylvania.

I stated that it did. And substantiated my claims with eyewitness testimony, first responder testimony, 9/11 Commission findings, NTSB report from the flight data recorder etc. etc.

I will be looking forward to his refutiation and/or substantiation.

reply to post by Boone 870


You stated it did but you did not validly substantiate it did. That is when Ivan and others proved there was no proof that it did. Photos, opinion and hearsay are not validation in and of themselves.

You still have not proved how any Boeing 757 could land in that hole, and not leave any evidence that a commercial jetliner actually did crash there. That hole defies the documented history of aviation crashes and laws of physics.

That is just for starters on what continues to go unstubstantiated in your points of argument.

One should remember that this is a conspiracy site.

Why are you here Boone? Keeping America safe?

[edit on 6-1-2008 by IvanZana]

You are all intelligent beings, don't let anyone convince you that your not (or that a plane crashed in Shanksville)




, I don't understand how you expect to change the above picture which clearly shows without a doubt that FLIGHT 93 DID NOT CRASH IN SHANKSVILLE on September 11th, 2001, with 6 year old contradiciting reports.

A silent applause to the 2 or 3 debunkers on this thread.

Futile but persitant. hats off.

They'll come around.
Cheers




[edit on 6-1-2008 by IvanZana]

reply to post by OrionStars

You stated it did but you did not validly substantiate it did. That is when Ivan and others proved there was no proof that it did.

Are you sure about that? I think you should check the original post of this thread. It was made by Ivan.

Photos, opinion and hearsay are not validation in and of themselves.

Right. Unless they validate your side of the conspiracy. Correct?

HEY BOONE! Id like your viewpoint.
I answered your question and provided the info you requested.

In this picture that you have seen, the photographer is standing behind the red 'x'. This is where the official reports claim the wings crashed.

I would like you to explain to me where the wings and fuel went considering the grass is untouched and unburnt?

The dent that the wings are said to have hit are dry and have unburnt , unroken grass growing out of the crash site.

How is this possible?

Where did the wings and fuel go?, lack of fire?, where the wings?


50 pages later and Boon,Mike,Cpt havent properly answered. these questions.


Answer the questions for the 60th time. I dont care if you say they found a passport from the terrorist. Peace.



[edit on 6-1-2008 by IvanZana]

Originally posted by Boone 870
reply to post by OrionStars

 

You stated it did but you did not validly substantiate it did. That is when Ivan and others proved there was no proof that it did.

Are you sure about that? I think you should check the original post of this thread. It was made by Ivan.

Yes, I certain.

Photos, opinion and hearsay are not validation in and of themselves.

Right. Unless they validate your side of the conspiracy. Correct?

That retort would lose you points or an entire debate, if done in legtimate debate.

reply to post by OrionStars


"Yes, I certain." should read "Yes, I am certain."

Its pretty amazing how detailed simulated plane crash exercises can get.

This one plane crash drill was in russia. If i didnt see the captions, I would believe them to be real.

SOURCE

What funny is the civilians in the area dont know that it is an exercise and are told a day or two later it was only an exercise, meanwhile the 911 lines are flooded for 24 hours.


I came to the conclusion that the Shanksville crater site was really a crash simulation exercise site. Considering on September 11th,2001, there were simulations runnining all over the country some acutally mirrored the WTC and Pentagon attack.

[edit on 7-1-2008 by IvanZana]

OK.

FROM THIS POINT FORWARD ALL PERSONAL ATTACKS, SNIPING, BAITING AND OFF TOPIC POST CEASE.

Thank you.

Reality vs. Fantasy


Reality:

1. Many witnesses have stated seeing the plane just prior to crash, then witnessing a giant fireball.

2. Picture of fireball captured on digital camera.

3. FDR (Flight Data Recorder) Recovered with information that upholds the witness statements.

4. CVR (Cockpit voice recorder) You hear the voices of the highjackers and a struggle with the pilots.

5. In flight phones calls. Many Airphone calls were placed by passengers and confirmed with passnegers families. A 911 Call from Ed Felt.

6. A Crater in Shanksville

7. Witnesses first on the scene describe seeing plane debris and personal belongings. (nothing very large)

8. DNA Evidence. Gathered from the scene all passengers and crew were identified through DNA evidence.

9. 95% of plane parts recovered. Per the FBI.

10. The impact energy of flight 93 was equal to 1484 pounds of TNT.

Fantasy

1. Witnesses are either "hersay" or "saw a missile."

2. Val McClatchey photo's was faked.

3. FDR Was planted

4. CVR was planted

5. Phone calls were faked from what is known as voice morphing.

6. The crater was not big enough

7. There were not enough plane debris. The personal belongings were planted

8. a.Mr. Miller was not qualified.
b.What DNA Evidence? I didn't see it
c. Planted evidence
d. It should have been destroyed by the heat & fire

9. I didn't see 95% of the airplane! Where is it ?

10. Shouldn't the hole have been bigger?


What do you believe? Reality or Fantasy? I am guessing Ivan will once again post that picture with no true measurements to back up what he is claiming.

[edit on 7-1-2008 by CaptainObvious]

Originally posted by OrionStars


Photos, opinion and hearsay are not validation in and of themselves.

They are not by themsleves. This is where you are mistaken. The photos, and witnesses are are all backed up with phones calls from passengers, FDR, CVR, and DNA evidence, and plane debris. You would be right only if there wasn't any other evidence to back up eye witness claims.

That hole defies the documented history of aviation crashes and laws of physics.

I have posted information on a few air crashes that were similar. Go back a couple pages.

Also, please list the laws of physics that were broken.

That is just for starters on what continues to go unstubstantiated in your points of argument.

Boones point have been proven. As have mine.

[edit on 7-1-2008 by CaptainObvious]

Where are the suitcases and clothing strewn all over? do the people who believe the official lie really accept as fact the ridiculous assertion that a huge airliner can crash into the ground and simply sink into the earth? the ground was not soft as loam, people. It was safe enough to walk around on and drive trucks on..it was solid ground. There should be suitcases and clothes everywhere, hanging in trees nearby, all over. But there is none.

Scattered junk and debris that very well could have been prepositioned there was all that was seen. No bodies photograhed being hauled out, no trucking companies attesting to hauling the airliner debris away, nothing but a smoking pit nowhere near big enough to accomodate the plane.

I am convinced that at a certain point, the evidence becomes irrelevant; the people who MUST believe in the essential ' goodness ' of the people who are able to affect our lives right down to their existence, WILL reject the obvious and plain proofs because they simply could not sleep at night or keep up their tidy little lives if they really believed that we are all pretty much at the mercy of a gang of cold blooded, mudering traitors who have assumed total control of all branches of the government, and who defy the rule of law and the Constitution with blatant disregard for the illegality of their actions.

They are aided and abetted by the pathetic Congress, people who are already owned lock stock and barrel by the corporate money and who always bow to the status quo rather than enact laws for the good of the people. It is useless to try and get things fixed thru the system, we all know that. it is far too late in the game for such ' quaint ' protections as habeas corpus and safety from being held forever with no attorney and no contact while being tortured. That is and has happened to Americans..right now.

So, the people who see luggage that isn't there, and people who think that all the ' reports ' from the government are accurate and truthful, the very same people who cannot imagine that the Bush and Cheney cabal would really sacrifice 300 plus souls for the PNAC plan to get off the ground..I say WAKE UP and small the coffee!! OR, try not to insult those of us who see the obvious and make sense of it. it is a shame and a crime, but we really are being governed by killers and traitors and thugs with briefcases who care ZERO about the flag or our nation: Greed and money is all they are about, in addition to power and influence: Ego trip garbage.

Once one realizes the truth, it is not so hard to sleep; just be ready to reply in the proper way when the inevitable happens, and don't worry about the rest.

reply to post by CaptainObvious


If you believe that to be the case, try passing by a court judge what you think to be try, and allow your opponent to argue why it is not true. Then note the outcome in closed chamber debate before a court judge.

reply to post by OrionStars


".....think to be try....." should be ".....think to be true...."

Originally posted by CaptainObvious
Ultima, what type of evidence are you looking for ? Please tell.

1. Actual crime scene photos or videos with verified information along with them. (but most of them have not been released)

2. Official crime scene reports from the FBI and NTSB.

3. Official reports matching the parts found at all the crime scenes match the 9/11 planes.



[edit on 7-1-2008 by ULTIMA1]

Originally posted by eyewitness86
Where are the suitcases and clothing strewn all over?

Have you looked into what was gathered from the debris field? Do you know how large the debris field was. (before you guys get excited, it was light weight items and debris that was scattered away from the impact point.)

Originally posted by eyewitness86 Scattered junk and debris that very well could have been prepositioned there was all that was seen. No bodies photograhed being hauled out, no trucking companies attesting to hauling the airliner debris away, nothing but a smoking pit nowhere near big enough to accomodate the plane.

Prepositioned? someone planted all the debris? Planted it 30 feet in the ground too?? WOW
Please tell me where you have seen bodies being hauled away from an airline crash? You also know from reports that the remains were very small.
Do you know how large the smoking pit was? Have you looked at the photographs?

Originally posted by eyewitness86 I am convinced that at a certain point, the evidence becomes irrelevant; .......

There we go! The evidence has become irrelevant! Lets ignore it folks. Evidence Smevidence we don't need it. Lets keep hoping that our government did this.

Originally posted by IvanZana
I came to the conclusion that the Shanksville crater site was really a crash simulation exercise site. Considering on September 11th,2001, there were simulations runnining all over the country some acutally mirrored the WTC and Pentagon attack.

What is the possible use for a simulation if all you have in that simulation is a smoking crater and some strewn debris, which is quite obviously not a survivable incident? Simulations are to test how emergency services deal with the injured etc, so what possible use would that crash site be from the idea of it being purely a simulation.?

reply to post by CaptainObvious


I could see nothing belonging to passengers in that heavily contaminated trash bin. Nothing has been presented showing any luggage or contents of luggage anywhere.

What is the next story we are going to hear? It was a same day commuter flight, and passengers did not need luggage, including carry-on luggage? No purses? No wallets? No clothing to wear? Nothing?

reply to post by CaptainObvious


Anything labeled "evidence" is not necessarily evidence supporting any case. When that called "evidence" does not, then, yes, it can be set aside until it can support a case - if ever. Maybe in the future it will fit all the other physical and/or circumstantial pieces. And then again, maybe it will not, depending on how many other pieces eventually show up to actually prove any case beyond any reasonable doubt.