FLIGHT 93 - The Biggest 911 Smoking Gun!

reply to post by Bunch


If those people are so reputable in what they hypothesize, why are they being published in a non-peer reviewed, non-professional magazine deliberately promoted to the general public, not the science community?

reply to post by ULTIMA1


Me evidence? HA! You have me mistaken for a conspiracy folk, I already told you that I believe in the story as presented that they by local, state and federal authorities, eyewitness reports and the subsequent investigations by official government reports and independent investigations.

That said Im still open to see evidence to the contrary, if you say that all that is wrong then I place the burden of proof on you, you show me, I learn and may be change my mind. What I presented is in line with the topic of the thread, meaning than IMO there was a Flight 93.

IvanZana: I respect your passion for this issue as well as all others here, you seem very knowledgeable folk and I admire that. Just because we sit on difference sides dont mean that im less intelligent or you are. So please dont make this a namecalling contest.

reply to post by MikeVet


You actually have those? Or are you depending totally on hearsay?

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by Bunch
I dont want to engage you in anything, if you see than Im making a wrong statement because im misinformed and you think that you have something that might enlight me, I will please tell you to do so.

So where is your evidence from PM about how the engine got so far away from the crash site ?

Good question. More important question is
1.WHEN was the engine found.?
2. Did any picture get released of any parts being retrieved from a lake or pond?
3.When did the pictures of the 5-6 seat section window section recovered in the woods get release for public consumption?

reply to post by IvanZana


I suppose my question is this. How did any jetliner engine buck gravity for so long by bouncing away from gravity, fly through the air, and land so far away?

reply to post by IvanZana


Weren't any ponds or small lakes on the other side of the grove of very tall trees?

Originally posted by DrZERO

I will post my findings on the map when I have finished.

Too funny, you earlier stated that you replied about some photo such and such before you'd seen the USGS map, etc , etc.......

And after I outed you about that, you went into defensive mode. And now you expect me to believe you about your analysis? When it happens? You've already made up your mind about the whole thing.

I've pointed out to you how you're wrong about Ivan's photo - grass and weathered dirt. but you won't listen to reason. What are you gonna do when you realize the USGS map shows nothing there prior to the crash? Are you going to come back here and admit that I've been right all along, that grass isn't in the scar, and the dirt is freshly dug up, but dry?

And I don't remember if you've made a statement about the debris found in Ivan's phot, but what do you make of that? What do you make of Ivan's claim's that they're missle parts? Look closely at some of the photos he's posted of missle/bomb strikes. No debris. No black junk inside the hole. Perfectly round holes. Nice clean dirt inside. Compare that to the 2 photos he's got of the crash sites. What is your analysis of that?

Originally posted by MikeVet
Look closely at some of the photos he's posted of missle/bomb strikes. No debris. No black junk inside the hole. Perfectly round holes. Nice clean dirt inside. Compare that to the 2 photos he's got of the crash sites. What is your analysis of that?

They also werent trying to fake a boeing 757 crash.

You should answer the questions .

You are just trying tinstigate and ruin this thread. but its not workin.

1000's a views. 1 person disagrees.

success.

[edit on 2-1-2008 by IvanZana]

reply to post by IvanZana






I see you have no idea where that previously unseen metal belongs on your beloved cruise missle, eh?

Run Forrest, Run !!!

Originally posted by MikeVet
Too funny, you earlier stated that you replied about some photo such and such before you'd seen the USGS map, etc , etc

Why is it that you only get into specifics when you are mis-quoting me and taking my posts out of context? My point was who cares if I had just seen Boone's post with the map before asking SwampFox some questions about some statements he made. Questions that he still has conveniently decided not to answer.

And after I outed you about that, you went into defensive mode. And now you expect me to believe you about your analysis? When it happens? You've already made up your mind about the whole thing.

Outed me about what? That I made a mistake about the time line? I conceded that and clarified to you what I was talking about. If this is the only thing you have to drag me over the coals over (and over, and over) then the lack of substance to your side of the debate is apparent. I'll investigate the map to satisfy my curiosity, nothing more. I will post my findings when I have them, no matter what they are. I don't expect you, or anyone else to believe anything, and I don't care.

I've pointed out to you how you're wrong about Ivan's photo - grass and weathered dirt. but you won't listen to reason.

On the contrary, I've pointed out to you how you are wrong about Ivan's photo, with red arrows.

What are you gonna do when you realize the USGS map shows nothing there prior to the crash? Are you going to come back here and admit that I've been right all along, that grass isn't in the scar, and the dirt is freshly dug up, but dry?

Whether or not I find the scar on the USGS map was at the same location of the crash sight of Flight 93 will not magically change Ivan's photo. No matter what I find it appears that in Ivan's photo there is unbroken, undamaged grass growing from a weathered indentation that is in the shape of a wing scar that is next to a round impact crater. That's my opinion of the picture, get over it.

And I don't remember if you've made a statement about the debris found in Ivan's phot, but what do you make of that? What do you make of Ivan's claim's that they're missle parts? Look closely at some of the photos he's posted of missle/bomb strikes. No debris. No black junk inside the hole. Perfectly round holes. Nice clean dirt inside. Compare that to the 2 photos he's got of the crash sites. What is your analysis of that?

I haven't commented on the debris because I don't know what it is, but it does not look like wreckage from a plane/bodies/luggage if that is what you are asking. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Maybe it was put there, maybe it was left over from the mine, maybe it was left over from what ever did make the round impact crater. Maybe maybe maybe.

Still waiting on that apology. thanks.


[edit on 2-1-2008 by DrZERO]

Real Plane Crash
"Flight 93"


To mikevet the only person here that seems to think a plane crashed in shanksville.

1. Whats the difference between the two pictures provided above?

2. Where is the World Trade Center melting fuel fire at the shanksville crater?

3. Do you see unburnt trees and green leaves in the direction of the impact? and how is that possible?

4. Where did the fuel go? and is that answer valid in reality?

5. How come there is unbroken dry grass and ground where the wings are said to have crashed ? Remember, the fuel tanks are in the wings and wing roots.

6. The Usgs map shows a mining scar in roughly the same area. Would it be fair to say that betweem the late 90's to 2001 another scar could of been created either do to strip mining for coal( which the shanksville site is, a surface coal mine) or even a natural coalfire crack which is common in pennsylvania.
(Only mention this because there is dry unburnt, unbroken grass where you said a massive wing ladened with thousands of gallons came crashing down at almost 570 mph.)

We will start with those questions.

Mike

Thnx in advance.

Originally posted by IvanZana

2nd debris field??


What shoud be most noticed is that notice all those people in hazmat suits searching the field?

Notice no one is searching the hole??

Because there is nothing in the hole.

Mabey they are looking for cruise missile parts?

???

THE SCREAMING THING

At the horseshoe-shaped Indian Lake, about a mile east of the official crash site, several eyewitnesses recalled hearing “a screaming thing” that “screeched” as it passed over the golf course and lakeside community immediately before a huge explosion shook the ground.

Chris Smith, the groundskeeper at the golf course, said something with a “very loud screeching sound” passed over in the immediate vicinity of the golf course before he heard a huge explosion.

Cruise missile video. Look like a small white plane.

Entertain this idea and tell me whats wrong with it.

[edit on 2-1-2008 by IvanZana]

reply to post by MikeVet


Here is an fine example of disinformation tactics:

Please note, there is a difference between a scrapyard and a dump.
Originally posted by jackinthebox

I never explicitly stated that there was a scrapyard exactly at any location.

MikeVet writes:

jackinthebox
posted on 1-1-2008 @ 11:20 PM
The field was used as a dump for metal debris.


Ohhhhh, yes you did.

Spin away.....

This was all AFTER I had already replied with this:

I never explicitly stated that there was a scrapyard exactly at any location. I had originally said the site was used as a dump. Obviously someone dumped scrap metal there, because there was NO airplane.

MikeVet, you obviously have no interst in discerning facts, only to post useless argument and chase your own tail around this thread.






[edit on 1/2/0808 by jackinthebox]

reply to post by IvanZana

Real Plane Crash

"Flight 93"

To mikevet the only person here that seems to think a plane crashed in shanksville.

1. Whats the difference between the two pictures provided above?

The bottom picture is the end result of a 757 impacting in a 40° dive, traveling 580 mph, into overburden at an abandoned mine.

The top picture is the end result of an airplane sliding into a perimeter fence. After a takeoff roll and flight distance of 6800 feet which was followed by a 1400 feet slide across the ground to said point. Just for comparison, the impact crater was 62 inches long, 20 inches wide, and 10 inches deep.

Apples and oranges. Not all crashes are the same.

Where did you find information on the type of lens used in the photo? How do you know the distance from which the picture was taken? Common sense would dictate that unbroken grass would not be growing out of a weathered scar which was the supposed impact site of an airliner wing/engine.

Educated guess based on the perspective of the weeds in relationship to the actual impact site.

Heavy based carbon fossil fuel does not simply disappear without a trace.

Probably why some of the first people on site mentioned seeing fuel.........hmmmmm......

I am referring to a book. I am aware parts of the book were posted to the Internet. However, I have no idea who posted parts of the book. It may not have been the author of the book.

Yes, you were referring to a book previously mentioned on ATS, and I was referring to the AUTHOR of said book, who had NOTHING to do with any of the aftermath of 9/11.

I know enough about interceptor planes to know it does not take 2 or more hours to get them off the ground, particularly in emergency situations. That left plenty of time for interceptors to intercept, not necessarily shoot down, alleged Flight 93. I am gauging that from the media reported and described expert military jet hairpin turn over the Cleveland area to head southeast. I know those interceptors are capable of flying much faster than any Boeing 757, with far more free and easy maneuverablity.

WOW, blow me down with your knowledge. Here is some background for you. I am a member of an air national guard unit that launched jets that day. Trust me when I tell you, that quite frankly, you dont have the first flipping clue about continental air defense, nor do you have any realistic ideas about conducting air intercepts.

The MEDIA reported and described expert military jet hairpin turn.....okay, do YOU even understand what you mean by that one? And since when is the media expert on ANYTHING?

I find interesting that SwampFox has been back to address other posts and conveniently ignored my questions.

Feel better now?

In comparison they spent only 15 million to investigate the murder of 3,000 of their own citizens. Not to mention the discrepancies of the evidence, and the actual OMISSION of evidence in the "Official Report."

And in my opinion, it was 15 million wasted to find out what many of us knew all along.

What the dickens are those planes for, if not to be prepared 24/7 to defend the US?

Well do some research on what happened to our military and its 24/7 alert status under Bill Clinton.

they should have been on stand-by alert as soon as the alleged second plane allegedly hit the second twin tower.

I am SOOO very glad that there are so many experts on this board when it comes to generating aircraft for combat sorties.

I wonder where the rest were? Oh yeah, tracking the "fake terrorists" during the numerous "war game" exercises going on that day. What a co-winki-dink.

The rest? Training, maintenance, inspections....we havent had more than two dozen aircraft on the CONTINENT for continental air defense since...1996.......and even fewer in 2001.

Here's another clue for you. It was believed that we were basically impervious to attack (especially aerial attack) here in the United States after the Cold War ended, so we stopped worrying so much about having combat equipped fighters ready to launch long before 9/11. Just HAD to love the Peace Dividend....

Actually, the media in Cleveland reported two planes landed on 9/11, and one was Flight 93. Then it was changed by the next day to one plane, and that was Delta

Actually, it was "changed" to one plane about 45 minutes after the first erroneous report about flight 93 landing in Cleveland. Dont you bother to read ANY of the links that have been posted about this?

The videotaping was done and reported that all passengers were off the plane by the time they started filming, for live news on site programming interupt which happened sometime before noon. All we saw on the videotape was the plane door open and no sign of passengers on board or leaving the plane

Again, it was the Delta flight.....

fact that SwampFox made statements to fact that he could not back up with evidence. In fact he has still not answered my questions in that post, surprise, surprise

First off, I have posted more links to more evidence showing that Flight 93 crashed in that field than anyone has posted evidence that it did not. Second, if I choose to answer ALL of your questions I will, if I feel they are assinine or already answered by someone else I wont.

Multiple eye witnesses admit to not seeing a large comercial aircraft but more of a wingless missile.

Not this gentleman...who had a ringside seat....

........I proceeded to find Nevin Lambert's farm house. This very humble, hard working farmer was standing facing Flight 93 as it came barreling towards him and his farm house. Had the plane not gone into the ground in front of that tree line, it most likely would have hit Nevin and his house, because as he said during our very lengthy interview, he was rooted to the spot and thought he couldn't have moved even if he wanted to, he was that shocked. Nevin Lambert, besides Nena Lensbouer who was delivering sandwiches to the scrap yard that overlooks the site, are probably the 'best' eye witnesses to the approach of the plane, how out of control it was and the eventual crash........

Missile huh?


Then there is this from ivanzana....

NoTe: Notice the people in the white and yellow hazmat suits arent even in the hole? nobody in the missle crater? why? nothing there i guess.

So who is the guy in the suit standing in the crater, in the center of the picture?

1 engine about 1/4 mile away.

Actually about 900 feet or so....not so far a distance for a chunk of metal moving a bit downhill at 400+ mph....

My point was who cares if I had just seen Boone's post with the map before asking SwampFox some questions about some statements he made. Questions that he still has conveniently decided not to answer

Again with the "SwampFox hasnt answered..." waah waah waah..

Originally posted by Boone 870
reply to post by IvanZana

 

Real Plane Crash

"Flight 93"

Your forgot to answer thse questions
2. Where is the World Trade Center melting fuel fire at the shanksville crater?

3. Do you see unburnt trees and green leaves in the direction of the impact? and how is that possible?

4. Where did the fuel go? and is that answer valid in reality?

5. How come there is unbroken dry grass and ground where the wings are said to have crashed ? Remember, the fuel tanks are in the wings and wing roots.

6. The Usgs map shows a mining scar in roughly the same area. Would it be fair to say that betweem the late 90's to 2001 another scar could of been created either do to strip mining for coal( which the shanksville site is, a surface coal mine) or even a natural coalfire crack which is common in pennsylvania.
(Only mention this because there is dry unburnt, unbroken grass where you said a massive wing ladened with thousands of gallons came crashing down at almost 570 mph.)

reply to post by Swampfox46_1999

Probably why some of the first people on site mentioned seeing fuel.........hmmmmm......

Why wasn't the fuel burning? Hmmmmaybe there wasn't any. And don't bother arguing that there was no ignition source close enough to the pools of thousands of pounds of fuel.

........I proceeded to find Nevin Lambert's farm house. This very humble, hard working farmer was standing facing Flight 93 as it came barreling towards him and his farm house. Had the plane not gone into the ground in front of that tree line, it most likely would have hit Nevin and his house, because as he said during our very lengthy interview, he was rooted to the spot and thought he couldn't have moved even if he wanted to, he was that shocked. Nevin Lambert, besides Nena Lensbouer who was delivering sandwiches to the scrap yard that overlooks the site, are probably the 'best' eye witnesses to the approach of the plane, how out of control it was and the eventual crash........

They saw a plane barrleing at them and couldn't move? At 500+ mph he wouldn't have had a chance to move, much less even really know what he was seeing. Furthermore, if he was so close, why wasn't he shredded with the metallic confetti bomb that the plane supposedly turned into?






[edit on 1/2/0808 by jackinthebox]

Greetings, IvanZana,

The following may serve to bolster what already appears to be an already very strong circumstantial case concerning Shanksville:

www.globalsecurity.org...

Amalgam Virgo

Amalgam Virgo is a joint-service, cruise-missile defense exercise at Tyndall AFB.

Fast, low-flying cruise missiles are hard to detect. To practice their part in defending the U.S. from these missiles, members of the 513th Air Control Group deployed to Florida for the "Amalgam Virgo" cruise missile defense exercise. The multi-service exercise tested the defense and response capabilities to a cruise missile attack on Tyndall Air Force Base, Fla., June 1-4, 2001.

======

What was perhaps a bit different about this exercise was that it involved U.S. homeland defense and practicing to merge a variety of sister services' capabilities to create a uniform picture and response. There are 75,000 cruise missiles and cruise missile-like aircraft in about 75 countries around the world. Those facts, coupled with the ease with which a cruise missile can be acquired make cruise missile defense a priority. Because of the capability for people with very limited means, in relative terms, to be able to obtain a cruise missile, NORAD has to be very serious about that threat. Key to defending against cruise missiles is making sure all air defenders see the same thing. The goal of this exercise was to improve the air picture and counter new and emerging threats.

Oh, yes, I certainly feel so secure with the Bush administration running the show, and wielding all that power over the rest of us and the world. In the case of the Bush administration, the threat to them must be the rest of us US citizens.

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999

WOW, blow me down with your knowledge. Here is some background for you. I am a member of an air national guard unit that launched jets that day. Trust me when I tell you, that quite frankly, you dont have the first flipping clue about continental air defense, nor do you have any realistic ideas about conducting air intercepts.

the air national guard proved it knows nothing about continental air defense, and had no idea about conducting air intercepts, either.
either that, or there was some kind of 'fog of war' going on on september eleventh, two thousand and one, that prevented the agencies responsible for air defence from knowing what the hell was going on in the air.

something like MULTIPLE drills which exactly mimicked the actual attacks. wow. what a coincidence.