FLIGHT 93 - The Biggest 911 Smoking Gun!

Originally posted by runetang
Because it was destroyed at such a high altitude, killing all abord instantly, spreading their charred remains over miles and miles of wooded area, never to be seen again.

Wreckage doesn't just disappear, especially over land.

If it was blown up at high altitude, then MOST of the wreckage should still be laying somewhere, right? Unless the plane was flying so high that the wreckage burnt up upon reentry into the atmosphere?

I find the lack of significant wreckage from all of the alleged plane crash sites disturbing.

you're right, with a high enough explosive, it gets vaporized, charred, turned into dust basically.

so these people's bodies, hypothetically, were essentially vaporized, according to missile theory.

how many dead pilot bodies are found after a jet is blown out of the sky with an anti air missile during war? I've never heard of remains .. or .. ever seen a picture of such remains. Or a report of finding them.

PS: Nice paintjob on the ole' Eversore Imperial Assassin there in your avatar.
With a WHFB Dark Elf head attached and the skull head removed, with some other modifications, it would make a sweet WHFB Assassin too. Okay nerd time ovah!


[edit on 12/15/2007 by runetang]

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999


Excuse me?

There were no passenger bodies or body parts to DNA ID for verification of those people named to be aboard one of 4 commercial airliners.

The coroner's assessment came yesterday as he confirmed that the Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory has used DNA samples to match recovered remains with the last of 40 crew members and passengers aboard the hijacked jetliner 14 weeks ago when it slammed into a recovered strip mine at around 500 mph.

I know that was stated by the US bureaucrats. I also reserached and found the coroner and law enforcement officials, after arriving at the hole in the ground, originally stated no bodies or body parts were found. No plane or plane parts. Which is why the US bureaucrats stated all four alleged planes, plus, all alleged everything and everyone in them were vaporized. The first problem with that statement is that it takes 11,000 degrees F heat plus some length of time to vaporize a plane. The necessary heat and temperature never existed - not at WTC, not at the Pentagon, and not on the ground in PA.

Where did they finally locate the bodies or body parts in what US bureaucrats eventually claimed was a vaporized plane? If so, exactly how did they do that?

There is no evidence presented any bodies or body parts were found anywhere near any of 4 alleged crash sites. In fact, there was no physical validated evidence of 4 alleged commercial aircraft crashing into anything or anywhere. No bodies. No body parts. No correct model plane parts or debris. Just some strange indentation in the ground that vaguely resembled the shape of some type of aircraft appeared in PA. Holes in walls do not prove any aircraft made the holes. The alleged crash events, of all 4 commercial aircraft on 9/11, are unheard of in the history of aviation.

Only on 9/11 was every law of physics defied. After I started my research, I noted several physicists making the same statement I had made on 9/11/2001.

Many of the passengers were government employees.

No, they werent.

That isn't the way I wrote that the above statement. You removed words which distorted what I wrote. Why did you do that?

Umm..yes they did find the "correct" parts...

Would you care to validate any of you statements above? Because I can easily locate counter statements by an ex-USAF officier, whose job in the AF was to investigate military jet crashes. Which means he has the expertise to know what plane parts belong on what model of aircraft, including commercial aircraft such as the Boeing 757 and 767. He states that the wrong plane parts appeared from somewhere and did not belong on the models of the planes they were stated to belong in all 4 cases.

Watching "Mythbusters" one day (quite a legitimate source, hah), they said that something like 80% of people involved in plane crashes don't die at the time of impact, but are so broken up they can't get away from the fire that is its result. This is because the terminal velocity of a plane isn't high enough to cause life-ending trauma. Now, if a shaken up pilot accidentally throttled the plane into the ground, that would cause a large increase in speed, but I can't see a pilot in a nose dive deciding to hit the gas.

This is some crazy speculation. I was not aware of the lack of reports on the crash (hell it was like 50 mi from my house and I'm ignorant to it). Are they all fabricated or what?

What can be done about this? I was not convinced until recently, but now I don't know how anyone could look at the building videos and not be convinced. Are there any politicians who want to do an investigation on this? If it were true, I'd get my work visa for Australia now instead of 5 years from now.

But honestly, what can we as citizens do confirm this? We're still called crazy, but it seems like a lot more people are on board as of recent times. We gotta take action.

It is interesting that with all the fuss and debate about 9/11 everyone is overlooking what happened on 9/10

9/10/2001: Rumsfeld says $2.3 TRILLION Missing from Pentagon
" Pentagon admits $2.3 Trillion missing and Rumsfeld calls it a matter of "life and death."...Rumsfeld Missing Trillions Pentagon Disgrace Powerless Americans"



The report further states 25% of all Military spending is unaccounted for... but the very next day all is forgotten about this 'trivial matter' And Bush asks for another 48 Billion for the War on Terror...

In the next video the amount has become 3.5 trillion... Just listen to how Rumsfeld responds...

McKinney Grills Rumsfeld
"Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney grills Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on the Pentagon's missing trillions, DynCorp's slave trade, and the 9/11 wargames. House Hearing on FY06 Dept"



Now as I understand it the team investigating this missing money and all the records were housed in the section of the pentagon that 'suffered damage" I am tracking down material to back that up and hope its still around. Hopefully some one here can help with that...

Also the records for the Enron scandal were housed in WTC7...I have not heard much about Enron after 911...

I do not understand how Americans just forgot about the 3.5 Trillion yet dutifully keep paying taxes into this bottomless well of disappearing funds...

I guess we have just become so jaded that it doesn't matter... and if THEY can get away with THAT... what does it matter what they do? All we will do is talk about it for years after...

Until the next outrage... and all will be forgotten...

I heard on one thread here that a nuclear weapon is missing from our arsenal... I can imagine a scene where the 'terrorist' that did this impossible feat of stealing the weapon will set it off somewhere in the US and then all the talk about 911, missing TRILLIONS, CIA drug planes will all just vanish in a glowing cloud.... and we will eagerly shell out more dollars to pay them back...

Only question is...

Who is THEY?

Hey John... you think the Mine is far enough away ... just in case?

[edit on 15-12-2007 by zorgon]

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999

Missing without a trace passengers, unable to provide positive ID by DNA, is indeed quite perplexing

Excuse me?

The coroner's assessment came yesterday as he confirmed that the Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory has used DNA samples to match recovered remains with the last of 40 crew members and passengers aboard the hijacked jetliner 14 weeks ago when it slammed into a recovered strip mine at around 500 mph.

www.post-gazette.com...

Many of the passengers were government employees.

No, they werent.

On 9/11, they couldn't even find the correct plane parts to match the models of planes they allege were used. Alleged Flight 77 is a prime example of that.

Umm..yes they did find the "correct" parts...

Sorry for the big quote but this is bull poo.

You know what all of the bodies are listed as on the death certificates??? John Does. Also Where is your evidence for the claim that they found parts off that "plane" Because i dont see any wreckage in the video, and that was the first thing i said when i saw it on tv!!! You know what that crater looks like??? Missle crater

Thats the crater from a precision guided missile from Israel... Where does Israel get their guided missiles??? from the US.

To lend a little bit more light on this subject, is eyewitnesses. If you look them up you will see that all of them cant seem to make up their minds about any one fact but this: They saw a plane that was trying to keep its nose up, and then at the last second dived into the ground like a rock. That is anything but consistant with the 580 MPH that the alleged flight recorder recorded. a plane trying to keep its nose up would not be going that fast, and no i'm not a pilot. More Witnesses said they heard a loud engine and a thump but saw nothing.

This is a pic taken by a civillian that lived in shanksville. Shanksville Smoke
That is not the smoke from a wrecked jet liner folks, that is the exact smoke trail of an exploded missile of some kind. Jet fuel burns forever and there is a lot of black smoke. Nellis crash

The biggest disrespect to the families of flight 93, is the one done by the USA. Any loss of american life is a bad thing but to lie about is worse. The only reason discussing things like this is taboo is because there are too many right wing christians in the states that will attack people for even bringing it up.

PROVE TO ME THAT IT WAS A PLANE AND I'LL BELIEVE YOU.

Originally posted by runetang
you're right, with a high enough explosive, it gets vaporized, charred, turned into dust basically.

Explosives won't vapourise a plane. A missile strike will not vapourise a plane.

The plane will be hit, it will explode and the wreckage will fall over a scattered area. So, where is the wreckage? Where are the engines, seats, landing gear, fuselage, tail, wings?

The plane can't vapourise and turn to 'dust' after being hit by a missile or even a bomb.

No wreckage would imply no plane...

you're right, with a high enough explosive, it gets vaporized, charred, turned into dust basically.

When Space Shuttle Columbia broke up on reentry in 2003 it was travelling
at 12,000 mph, 200,000 ft altitude. Yet were able to recover much of the
debris and crew remains. The debris field from it was spread over 2
states (texas/louisana).

Your contentions are false. At Flight 93 crash site were able to pull
60 tons of debris from the crash scene. No matter how severe the
impact/post crash fire something always remains.

Number of years ago had to walk crash scene of Lear 35 in my town
marking locations of body parts. Found plenty of remains.

The government knows how to keep things mixed up and people at bay and it seems to work quite well.

One day people will wake up and see that they really did become sheeple let's hope they wake before they are in the slaughter bin.

God help us all.

Originally posted by runetang

Oh dear.. this is entirely so disrespectful to the families of the missing/dead from that day.

Years after the New York 9/11 Clean up they STILL found human bones on some city building tops, in some odd locations, etc.

I have no idea how questioning lack of proof people are actually dead is disrespectful. If bodies or remains are never recovered, and no proof exists death took place, how does anyone know if someone is actually dead or alive? The answer is they don't. Handing someone a death certificate without providing a body, and then lying to them in addition to handing them a bogus death certificate, is entirely disrespectful.

The death certificates were rapidly issued for insurance purposes so the US bureaucracy and insurance companies could pay off claims and for no other reason. With those paid claims, from the US bureaucracy, came a mandatory gag order for anyone accepting federal taxpayer money. Why did people lose their rights to redress any grievance in demanding a full independent investigation take place simply because they took the money? 4 WTC widows refused to accept the money because they refused to give up their rights in demanding a full independent investigation be made.

I have not kept up with the law on the this. However, it used to be if bodies were not discovered, a person could not be legally declared dead for 7 years. There has to be a court hearing with a judge declaring someone dead. The US bureaucracy rushed through the order for dead certificates without providing proof anyone died in one of 4 alleged plane crashes on 9/11. Insurance companies are normally loathed to pay out claims if correctly identified bodies are not legally proved to be dead.

There were people in the twin towers on 9/11 due to it being a work day. Therefore, finding remains would not be unusual, and would be expected, even years later, as land began to be excavated at the previous WTC site. None of the NYC remains have been ID'd for any alleged passengers on two commercial aircraft. Those presently identified belonged to people in the twin towers at the time.

The 4 WTC widows, mentioned above, began a highly vocal demand to open a full independent investigation into 9/11. Those 4 woman carefully evaluated the "official" report, and were horrified to learn of all the errors in the "official" version. No matter how many questions they posed, they could get no reasonable answers to their reasonable questions.

Inner circle neocon Ann Coulter has been vicious to those 4 woman and anyone else questioning the "official" report. Coulter, in one of her books, called the widows harpies who should take the money and keep their mouths shut. Coulter also stated the 4 widows husbands were going to divorce them anyway. Coulter's and every other neocon's behavior, regarding 9/11, is what I consider unconscionably disrepectful to the widows and all survivors, of victims actually truthfully dying on 9/11.

Until enough people stand with the survivors and others, including experts, pushing for a full independent investigation of 9/11, nothing is going to be done, regarding any full independent investigation. Many federal politicians are not going to take a chance of losing their lucrative jobs while looking out for number one. Those, whose integrity has not yet been completely compromised, have no power to ensure a full independent investigation does take place.

reply to post by ProfTom


Sir,

Taking your comments at face value and accepting the fact that you are genuinely disturbed by what you call "this movement", I would like to say that this is NO movement. Movements tend to have a common cause, a common goal, and most of the times, a common enemy or adversary. The usage of the lump sum "movement" is an unfair attempt to sweepingly dismiss ALL the questions being raised.

As far as 911 threads go, this one has been very civilized so far.

There are, of course, many out there who just want to prove themselves right, at any cost to people's feelings. However, if you could, for a brief moment, put your feelings aside and not read people's answers and/or explanations they are offering (which you find objectionable), but more the questions being raised, from the perspective of an impartial investigator or a judge, I am hoping you would agree that these are legitimate questions that have not been addressed by any court, commission, or MSM, properly scrutinizing the available evidence for the official explanations that would not hold water in a court of law.

They need to be answered if there is any chance of a closure this way or another. And if you happen to be right, and the official stories are true and/or consistent with evidence, I shall be one of the first to give a big sigh of relief... But who will do the answering if no one is doing the asking???

Until then, shooting down legitimate questions with links to reports that say "an official familiar with the cockpit recording" are a little bit week, if not altogether void of any real value.

Originally posted by ProfTom

here's some proof of the remains...

Thanks for the post ProfTom. The information included in all of your links is information that has carefully been edited and fabricated over the 6 years since 911.

I really don't have the time to go over each and every link as most of them I have addressed over the several years I have been posting on ATS.

While I sympathize with your tears of anguish and pleas to get banned let me respectfully suggest that rather than begging for pity you need to meet your challenges with dignity, honor and courage. You might even consider throwing in a few facts for a change.

Thanks for the post and the links, as uninformative as they were.

reply to post by ProfTom


I dont think any one on this board is intending to disrespect any one of the families that have been effected by 911. And i know that questioning events that took place on that day is not a crime by any one. Would you rather we sweep the whole thing under the rug and be done with it??? Forget it ever happened?? Theres a bigger picture here beyond personal agendas and money making, because i am no author trying to turn a profit and the majority of people concerned with these issues are not either.

I think the majority of people that are digging so hard are PO'd because this could be the single greatest slap in the face by any government in the history of man. If the government of the USA came forward tomorrow and said yeah we did it, wouldnt you be even more upset????? This stuff doesnt just go away. Any body with half a brain could look at the events that took place on 911 and say, not quite everything is adding up the way they say it is. Its easier for people in power to tell other people what to believe. Its much harder for common men and women like the people that use this message board as an outlet. And yes i have lost loved ones because of 911. not directly but i've lost 3 close friends to the war in Iraq, which i hold 911 and Bush responsible for. It would be an injustice to them and to myself and to american tradition if i didnt question what happened on 911.

Originally posted by tezzajw
No wreckage would imply no plane...

Shanksville Crater... looking for debris...



Morgan Reynolds No More Games

Source

Still Smoking Hole... Notice that the grass show no signs of fire, nor do any of the trees



Crater from the air... Notice the scattered debris... ummmm yeah



Size Comparison... or how to make a huge airplane fit into a small hole



Live coverage of the first investigators.... two guys with hard hats just looking around... TWO GUYS? No fire equipment on site... Well since nothing is burning from all that jet fuel I guess they didn't need them



Source

Oh wait!! Here is the entire emergency response team that arrived on the scene...






Later they brought in equipment EXCAVATING EQUIPMENT Here is an aerial view of the "Project" Look at the layout of the area... remember that this 'crash' hit in an old strip mine



Source

Not a scorch mark on the grass... not a tiny piece of debris in the feild... just digging a deep hole in the ground... why? Well official story is the had to go down 45 FEET to find wreckage...

Well there certainly is a bigger hole there now...



Caption:
9/16/2001 - Somerset Crash Site- FBI and other investigators at the scene have excavated the crash site down to a depth of about 45 feet looking for clues. Digging a trench that deep requires special care to avoid cave-ins and constant monitoring to ensure any fumes from soil contaminated with jet fuel and hydraulic fluid do not present a hazard to emergency workers.

Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection (DEP) Emergency Response

Crash response photos

So is it normal for the Department of Environmental Protection to respond to plane crashes? and bring excavating equipment rather than rescue equipment?

And look at the first image on the page... the all important task of making RIBBONS FOR THE WORKERS a full day before they sent out the equipment!!! Well I guess there was no rush... after all they were just digging a hole...




Caption
"9/15/2001 - Somerset Crash Site- DEP's Betsy Mallison and Freda Tarbell worked with members of the Red Cross and Salvation Army to make red, white and blue ribbons for emergency workers at the site."

I find it truly amazing.. no SHOCKING actually that ALL Americans are not demanding a full independent investigation, no matter which side you are on...

If you do believe the official story... I would think you would want to settle this once and for all... or are you afraid you might find something you cannot live with?

If you don't believe the official story why are you waiting so long its been 6 years...

You know I bet the Government just LOVES these conspiracy sites... all they have to do is listen to the hard work and investigations we do here... and they have a check list of 'errors' they need to 'correct'

:shk:

Originally posted by johnlear
Thanks for the post dbates. As usual your speculation is uninformed and without foundation.

Without foundation? PBS' News hour with Jim Lehrer is hardly a speculation show. It's only criticism is that it's slightly boring at times, but it ususally does a great job in the line of being factual.

I know of no insurance claims that have been filed against any of the airlines.

That's really an unimformed claim. I don't know how you would know this. Do you have access to all of the insurance claims filed against an airline company. Do you work in the insurance industry or do you have any proof to back up this statement? Simply stating something does not make it true. It's nice to have a reputable source to back you up. That's why I linked to the flight manifest from a nationally known news program.

Your source is?

reply to post by IvanZana


I do recall that in the first hours after the crash, there were several Pennsylvanians interviewed that saw the plane, but reported seeing an object flying towards it. I was waiting anxiously to find out what those objects were, and after only a day or two, nothing was ever said again.

There are many pictures on the net of what really happens when a plane crashes... the fire and the debris all over the place.. One of the biggest areas of debris is the luggage... papers and clothing 'explode' all over the area leaving colorful patches of material like confetti everywhere...

I chose this crash for comparison as it is a similar site in the Cameroons... where they have no response equipment to get into the swampy area...

Boeing 737-800 Crash
Monday, 7 May 2007
Cameroon crash scene
Kenyan Airways plane which crashed in the swamps near the Cameroonian coastal city of Douala on Saturday.







Caption
"The grisly task of removing bodies and body parts from the mangroves is now under way."

BBC

Colorful debris EVERYWHERE and bodies...

The Boeing 737-800 disintegrated on impact, with officials saying there were no signs that any of the 114 passengers and crew could have survived.

Disintegrated yes... but airplanes do not vaporize in a puff of smoke leaving no trace...

Ever tossed a beer can into the fire? A blob of molten aluminum remains...
Ever took a welding torch to Aluminum? It leaves a fine white powder of aluminum oxide...

Aluminum
Melting Point: 660.37 °C (933.52 K, 1220.666 °F)
Boiling Point: 2467.0 °C (2740.15 K, 4472.6 °F)

Aluminum powdered mixed with an oxide (usually Iron Oxide (rust) makes something interesting... THERMITE

Thermite is a pyrotechnic composition of aluminium powder and a metal oxide which produces an aluminothermic reaction known as a thermite reaction. The aluminium is oxidized by the oxide of another metal, most commonly iron oxide (rust).

en.wikipedia.org...

Thermite requires 3000 degrees centigrade to ignite

THERMITE--A MIXTURE OF ALUMINUM AND ION OXIDE. THE
BURNING POINT IS 3000 DEGREES CENTIGRADE. IT CAN BURN WITHOUT
OXYGEN. WHEN USING AN ELECTRIC HEATER FOR HEATING TO 3000 DEGREES CENTIGRADE, THE HEAT DISSIPATION WILL CAUSE THE ELECTRIC HEATER TO REACH 1000 DEGREES CENTIGRADE.

Aluminum mixed with Magnesium requires 2800 degrees to ignite.

ELECTRON--A MIXTURE OF ALUMINUM AND MAGNESIUM. THE
BURNING POINT IS 2800 DEGREES CENTIGRADE. IT BURNS WITH A
SMOKELESS WHITE

www.gulflink.osd.mil...

Aluminum Oxide requires high temperature to melt it and forms corundum (Ruby rods used in LASERS is made this way)

So would someone please explain to me how temperature got hot enough to vaporize aluminum and leave NO trace of the bright white Aluminum oxide powder? And if you add water it simply makes a sticky paste... I use it all the time to polish gems and its a white mess.

Also bear in mind that Aluminum is a GREAT dissipater of heat... hense its use in HEAT SINKS in computers etc



[edit on 15-12-2007 by zorgon]

Originally posted by dbates
[Do you work in the insurance industry or do you have any proof to back up this statement? Simply stating something does not make it true. It's nice to have a reputable source to back you up.

In this case may I respectfully ask... do you have a link to any insurance claims that WERE filed? I would like to look them over...

Originally posted by nixie_nox
I do recall that in the first hours after the crash, there were several Pennsylvanians interviewed that saw the plane, but reported seeing an object flying towards it. I was waiting anxiously to find out what those objects were, and after only a day or two, nothing was ever said again.

I was driving to work at the time listening to the radio reports... the first report I heard about the Pennsylvania 'crash' was that the plane had been shot down... an engine was found several miles from where it 'crashed'

I have since tried in vane to find any trace of that report... so now I only have what I heard that day...


[edit on 15-12-2007 by zorgon]

reply to post by zorgon

9/10/2001: Rumsfeld says $2.3 TRILLION Missing from Pentagon
" Pentagon admits $2.3

Rumsfeld never said that $2.3 trillion was missing. He said it could not be "tracked". Do you know the reason that the money couldn't be tracked?

Also, the Associated Press ran a story about the $2.3 trillion that was unaccounted for on March 3, 2000. That's five months before George W. Bush accepted the Republican nomination for presidency and 18 months before the terrorist attacks. So much for the "day before" claim.

The report further states 25% of all Military spending is unaccounted for... but the very next day all is forgotten about this 'trivial matter' And Bush asks for another 48 Billion for the War on Terror...

If all was forgotten, why is a congresswoman talking about it on C-SPAN?