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End Times

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posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 10:06 PM
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reply to post by shaell
 


I have no doubt the punctual pause was significant but I have to respectfully disagree with the interpretation of 434 years after consulting the original Hebrew texts. I just read the explanation for the break a few days ago on Jack Kelly's gracethrufaith.com site but can't remember for the life of me how he explained it and can't find it now through a site or Google search. There is definitely a reason for it.

I completely agree with you about the dualism of prophecy and multiple fulfillments or "history repeating itself." It is interesting that the 1948 return to Israel is also prophesied to the year in Scripture using Ezekiel, Jeremiah, and Leviticus. I'm going to do some more digging to remember what I learned about the punctual pause between 62 and 7 and will either respond to this post if I ever find it again.




posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 10:18 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


Let me ask you this: regardless of the reason for the "pause", why would Gabriel specify that "after the 62 sevens, messiah will be cut off" unless that's exactly what he meant?

It comes down to either believing in the infalibility of the prophecy or believing in the accuracy of one's own calculations.

We certainly don't have enough information to reasonably settle the exact years of the decree or the crucifixion, but we do have the prophecy being specific about the 62 "weeks".



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 11:39 PM
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Originally posted by shaell
Let me ask you this: regardless of the reason for the "pause", why would Gabriel specify that "after the 62 sevens, messiah will be cut off" unless that's exactly what he meant?


I definitely see what you're saying but I could ask you the same thing: Why in the first verse does it say the Messiah will come after 69 sevens? But I'm looking into the answer now. As soon as I know, I will post it here. I'm with you- I think it could refer to Jesus' two advents but I like to confirm things before I accept it.


We certainly don't have enough information to reasonably settle the exact years of the decree or the crucifixion, but we do have the prophecy being specific about the 62 "weeks".


Sure we do!


The decree to rebuild Jerusalem issued by Artaxerxes in the 20th year of his reign as recorded in the Bible: "In the month of Nisan in the 20th year of King Artaxerxes..." (Nehemiah 2:1). The rest of the chapter and subsequent chapters show Artie issuing the order to allow the rebuilding of Jerusalem.

From secular history we know Artie started his reign in 465 B.C. so the 20th year of his reign was in 444 B.C.



posted on Dec, 31 2007 @ 12:16 AM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


I think you miss my point, competely. I was trying to find out why you would take the word of God, talking about "Days" and turn it into "Years". I was not trying to find out how many days are in a year. I am trying to find out by what authority you can change the word of God to mean something that it does not say.
On the Decree, I was reading your posts and you mentioned that you were reading the NIV. So, I read it before I asked my question, from the NIV. I went back and read it again, after reading your response. I stand with my first question. I see no difference between these decrees.

[edit on 31-12-2007 by jmdewey60]

[edit on 31-12-2007 by jmdewey60]



posted on Dec, 31 2007 @ 12:20 AM
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Originally posted by shaell
reply to post by AshleyD
 


Let me ask you this: regardless of the reason for the "pause", why would Gabriel specify that "after the 62 sevens, messiah will be cut off" unless that's exactly what he meant?


I finally found the answer after a woman on another site helped me with it. Phew! Here it goes.

It took 49 years according to Nehemiah to rebuild Jerusalem. This answers our question why 62 and 7 sevens were mentioned instead of the simple 69 sevens and the difference between 69 sevens and 62 sevens for the Messiah. If we read Daniel 9:25-26 into consideration after knowing the length of time it took to rebuild Jerusalem it would go something like this:

After 62 and 7 sets of seven years (483 biblical years) from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, the Messiah will come. After this decree is given, it will take 7 sevens (49 years) to rebuild the city, leaving 62 sevens. So once Jerusalem is completed, there will only be 62 sevens left from the original countdown of 69 sevens until the Messiah is crucified.

This becomes clear because the 62 is mentioned right after the mentioning of the city being rebuilt and the implication of the reconstruction project of the city being completed. So, our problem is resolved. Here are some links she gave me:

Link One: Scroll down to the "Conclusion" for Nehemiah's 49 year rebuilding.
Link Two: Breaks the whole thing down for us.

Excuse us everyone who had to witness the two of us trying to figure this out.


[edit on 12/31/2007 by AshleyD]



posted on Dec, 31 2007 @ 12:38 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
I think you miss my point, competely. I was trying to find out why you would take the word of God, talking about "Days" and turn it into "Years". I was not trying to find out how many days are in a year. I am trying to find out by what authority you can change the word of God to mean something that it does not say.


Do you mean weeks instead of days? Because I'm not sure where I said anything about days. The English word "week" in the original Hebrew language is an idiom that literally translates as seven. Just like the English word decade means ten years, the original Hebrew word (shabuwa) means "seven" (years, weeks, or days). So a set of 70 sets of seven years, or 490 years. If you are referring to days, please correct me because I don't remember explaining anything in days. But if you do mean "weeks" then that is simply a Hebrew-English idiom.

So we're not changing the meaning by any authority but we are using the authority of the original language of the Bible (which is what we should go by whenever possible) for an explanation. Although the message of salvation gets across to us just find, technical difficulties arise with any literary work translated from one language into another. Check out the link of shabuwa I placed in the above paragraph. It will give you the original meaning from the original Hebrew.

Edited to add: Also, Jesus Himself used this passage to verify the meaning as years and the Jewish commentaries outside the Bible knew the context was referring to years and not days or weeks. So, the meaning of this passage goes back almost 2,500 years. The meaning as years is nothing new. I think even the Septuagint translated 250-150 years before the time of Jesus understood the meaning to be years through its context.



On the Decree, I was reading your posts and you mentioned that you were reading the NIV. So, I read it before I asked my question, from the NIV. I went back and read it again, after reading your response. I stand with my first question. I see no difference between these decrees.


Okay, no problem. Darius and Cyrus decreed the rebuilding of the Temple.. Artie's decree and only Artie's decree mentions the rebuilding of Jerusalem. Two decrees were permission to rebuild the temple (building). One decree was to rebuild Jerusalem (city). If that isn't what you are asking, please let me know if I misunderstood your question.

[edit on 12/31/2007 by AshleyD]



posted on Dec, 31 2007 @ 01:17 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


And here we have some internal Biblical evidence to show how the Hebrew word shabuwa is used to represent seven years:

Leviticus 25:8: The original Hebrew word shabuwa was used repeatedly to represent seven sets of "sevens" representing 49 years.

Genesis 29:27-28. We know Jacob worked seven years both times to win the hands of Rachel and Leah. The word shabuwa is used twice to mean week and seven years. Hence Daniel's "70 sevens" prophecy being called weeks while representing seven years. The original Hebrew confusingly has one word for multiple meanings.

Leviticus 25:3-4: Every seven years the fields were to be untilled to allow the poor to harvest the excess.

In these examples, shabuwa was used to represent seven years. So no, no one is pulling anything out of thin air. Internal biblical evidence, textual context, a meaning of the original Hebrew word, and external evidence show the meaning to be years.

[edit on 12/31/2007 by AshleyD]



posted on Dec, 31 2007 @ 01:35 AM
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Thanks to everyone who has added some positive feedbak and input into this subject. It is so hard now days to tell who is correct in their teachings on this subject. I do agree though that this information should never be sold in a book or video. That is like paying your way to salvation.



posted on Dec, 31 2007 @ 02:33 AM
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Now back to my conversation with Shaell. I've been considering what we talked about earlier and after jmdewey60's questions regarding the meaning of shabuwa. I'm wondering if the fact shabuwa has multiple meanings is not a coincidence.

God doesn't do anything without purpose ("coincidence" isn't in His vocabulary), we know He promised the nearly dead Hebrew language would be revived in the end times (this happened with the rebirth of Israel in 1948 as prophesied), that the prophecies He gives almost always have multiple fulfillments in repeated history, and that shabuwa could mean seven sets of days, weeks, and years.

I'm beginning to wonder if the separate sets of 62 and 7 sevens have a dual purpose for us today we discussed previously. Although we resolved the 434 vs. 438 issue for the original prophecy, it's fun to crunch numbers with the 1967 reunion of Jerusalem to Israel.

Even though there were multiple decrees given to the Jews, Daniel specially stated the Messiah's arrival would be determined by the rebuilding of Jerusalem. I'm wondering if we can add 49 years (the time it took them to rebuild Jerusalem in Nehemiah's day) to 1967 (which would be close to my 2017/2018 estimate). Many, many times He uses history as already-fulfilled prophecy as a forewarning to other generations so this is interesting.

Then the multiple meanings of shabuwa may come into play. Perhaps it is a certain amount of years added by a certain amount of weeks and days. Probably not but it was something that crossed my mind after our comments in this thread.

Of course, we can play with numbers until the cows come home and it won't mean we're right because Jesus said we can't know the day. However, Jesus did command us to know the season and we are most definitely in that season. The seasonal warning is good enough for now but it would be very nice if the 1967 + 49 years would be the right equation. We'll see.

I have a feeling after it happens the timeline will be so obvious that we will wonder how we missed it. Of course, we already know why we can't see it- because He sealed up the knowledge from us on purpose until the appointed time.

[edit on 12/31/2007 by AshleyD]



posted on Dec, 31 2007 @ 08:52 AM
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Originally posted by AshleyD
Although we resolved the 434 vs. 483 issue for the original prophecy, it's fun to crunch numbers with the 1967 reunion of Jerusalem to Israel.
[edit on 12/31/2007 by AshleyD]

Respectfully, I don't think the issue is resolved just yet.

First, I take issue with the accuracy of secular history. In this case, especially, we're dealing with Biblical years, the counting of which has been lost to history (until recently). And as I stated earlier, I don't think Gabriel would have specified 62 weeks unless that's exactly what he meant.

You, yourself acknowledged that Gabriel said "the words are sealed up until the time of the end" meaning that no one would understand the prophecy until it was fulfilled.

Well it has now been fulfilled so that we might understand.

Cosider these facts:

1. On September 13, 1993, Israel entered into a seven year peace treaty with the Palestinians known as "the Oslow Accords" - this is the only seven year treaty for Israel in recorded history since Gabriel revealed the prophecy. Coincidence? maybe...but then...

2. On March 13, 1997, (3 1/2 years to the day of the signing at Oslow) The Palestinians halted the "daily sacrifice" which was, in fact, a "daily prayer" on the temple mount offered by the Jews as a "stand in" for the daily sacrifice. Does it matter that in the Psalms, David, himself, decreed that the daily prayer was the true daily sacrifice? Of course it matters. It would seem that the prophecy was fulfilled which read: "in the middle of the seven he will put an end to sacrifice and offering" Still a coincidence? maybe...but then...

3. On September 28, 2000, directly after the expiration of the Oslow Accords, Ariel Sharon fulfilled the so-called "Abomination of Desolation" prophecy to the letter. Biblical scholars are in general agreement that the most accurate translation of this prophecy exists in the footnotes of the NIV on the same page. Take a look at it, it reads: "one who causes desolation will come upon the pinnacle of the abominable temple until the end that is decreed is poured out on the desolated city". Is it a coincidence that this is exactly what happened?

On that day Sharon climed the temple mount, escorted by an entourage of armed men, to declare that "any Jew has the soveriegn right to walk on the Temple Mount" regardless of Ezekiel 43:12 which reads "This is the law of the temple: All the surrounding area on top of the mountain will be most holy. Such is the law of the temple."- Sharon even read from Ezekiel while up there.

The consequences of Sharon's actions are now a matter of historical record. You might remember seeing some of it on the news, though American media has all but forgotten it now. The very moment Sharon set foot on the temple mount, the current Palestinian intifada began. Riots broke out in the streets of Jerusalem and Gaza. Hundreds died in the ensuing months. You might remember seeing Israeli soldiers' charred bodies being dragged through the streets of Gaza. You might remember seeing a father and son caught in the crossfire of a skirmish and gunned down on live television. Those months were full of atrocity, all a direct result of Sharon's actions. I'd even go so far to say that 9/11 was an indirect result of these events. It was only a few months later that Sharon was elected into office.

One more thing: You had alluded earlier to Antiochus Epiphanes fulfilling the "Abomination of Desolation" prophecy, which has been a popular interpretation since antiquity. There are a few problems with this.
1. There was no "seven year treaty" or "halting of the daily sacrifice" preceding the event. (Gabriel makes it clear that these things will happen consecutively in 3 1/2 year intervals.)
2. Jesus refered to the event as being in the future, and we all know that Antiochus Epiphanes preceded Christ by a stretch.
3. Gabriel said that no one would understand until the end.

good hunting!


[edit on 12/31/07 by shaell]



posted on Dec, 31 2007 @ 09:22 AM
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One more thing...

In regards to the "seven year treaty": The prophecy reads "He will confirm a covenant with "many" for one 'seven'...".

Well, the Oslow accords were confirmed by Yitzhak Rabin who was prime minister of Israel at the time (later assasinated).

Is it just another coincidence that "Rabin" means "the many"?

Or is this simply one more literal fulfillment of this very important prophecy?

To my mind, there are too many "hits" regarding this prophecy and this interpretation to simply ignore.



posted on Dec, 31 2007 @ 12:11 PM
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reply to post by shaell
 


I definitely see where you're coming from and the dualism of fulfillment but I do have to point out some things. We both agree this is a dual prophecy- no doubt. We both know it will be completely fulfilled in the end times just like it was fulfilled in the past- no doubt. We both agree the mentioning of "62+7" instead of merely "69" is highly significant- no doubt. However, there are many Gabriel-issued facts that all need to be taken into consideration and not pushed aside.


First, I take issue with the accuracy of secular history.


I understand but remember the genealogies and reigns of Hebrew kings were detailed to the year and sometimes to the day and month in the Old Testament chronology (and even multiple gentiles and pagan kings- including Artaxerxes). You can use the dates and years given in the Bible to come to the same date for Artaxerxes. In other words, biblical and secular history do not have conflicting time lines for Artaxerxes. According to most calculations they differ only by a few months.


And as I stated earlier, I don't think Gabriel would have specified 62 weeks unless that's exactly what he meant.


Again, you can't forget that Gabriel also mentions "after 69 sevens." We can't throw out a part of the passage just because it doesn't fit what we want and claim only the 62 sevens are important. We need to take the entire passage into consideration. I totally see where you are coming from and it is fascinating but don't ignore Gabriel's other countdown starting with 69 weeks. The information that all needs to be taken into consideration is this:

1) Gabriel specified 69 weeks and 62 weeks.

2) The Messiah cannot die (after 62 weeks) and then arrive (after 69 weeks). Again, it's like prophesying a person will be born in 2015 but that they will die in 2010. Taking all of the text into consideration, we have to believe Gabriel was pointing out a countdown within a countdown.

3) We know it took the Hebrews 49 years (7 sevens) to rebuild all of Jerusalem (including the temple, the city walls, gates, etc.).

4) A total of 70 sets of seven years are decreed to fulfill all prophecy for the Hebrews. Read Daniel 9:24 carefully. It also mentions Jerusalem as part of the equation- not just Jesus, His death, the Antichrist, etc. Again, it is a countdown within a countdown.

5) A big clue for us is that the seventy sevens were divided up into three sections (483 years, 434 years + 49 years, and 7 years). Reading Daniel 9:24 carefully, we see Jerusalem has been given a special slot in the countdown within a countdown although the total time it will take for the Messiah is 69 weeks.

6) Secular history matches up with the chronology of the given history in the Bible.

So, Gabriel is saying a total of 70 sevens is going to take place. A total of 483 years will pass until the Messiah is put to death for our sins. At the start of the 69 sevens countdown, 49 of those years pertain to the rebuilding of Jerusalem. The countdown within the countdown. After the 49 weeks pass for the rebuilding of Jerusalem, they still have another 62 weeks to go until the Messiah. 483 years total for the Messiah. 49 years for the rebuilding of Jerusalem. The remaining 62 weeks after that for a total of 69. Then the church age. Then the seven year tribulation/covenant. Only this interpretation takes everything into consideration for the initial fulfillment.

I wholeheartedly agree with you that there is a dual fulfillment for our time and I don't think the fact it took 49 years to rebuild Jerusalem is a coincidence or that Gabriel specifically subtracted the years it took to build Jerusalem from the 69 to still leave 62 for no reason whatsoever. I'm merely trying to stress the point you can't only consider the 62 sevens as important and dismiss the 69 seven's importance. You have to consider all of God's word for the initial fulfillment.



Consider these facts...

...The consequences of Sharon's actions are now a matter of historical record.


Again, I completely agree and see where you’re coming from. I think you are absolutely correct in your dualism. Still, the original 483 years total (7 sevens for the rebuilding of Jerusalem and then an additional 62 sevens for the Messiah) is the first fulfillment. Daniel 9:24 specifically states the rebuilding of Jerusalem is included in what we are about to be told, meaning it has it's own special time slot in the countdown within a countdown. Daniel 9:25 implies 69 sevens total, out of these 69 sevens it takes 7 sevens for Jerusalem to be rebuilt, with still an additional 62 sevens for the Messiah (7+62 brings us back to our 69 total). The end of Daniel 9:25 is implying the rebuilding of Jerusalem is now completed.


One more thing: You had alluded earlier to Antiochus Epiphanes fulfilling the "Abomination of Desolation" prophecy... There are a few problems with this...


No, I don't think Antiochus' AOD was the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy. Mainly because Jesus even told us the event was still to come. I think it was to help us spot the AOD when it happens. Remember, the Jews of antiquity didn’t understand what Daniel meant by the 'Abomination of desolation.' In their commentaries, they refer to Antiochus' actions as 'the abomination of desolation.' So, like Hitler was an example as a forerunner to the coming Antichrist and like the 1993 treaty was an example of the future seven year covenant, this AOD was an example of what the future AOD would entail as a sign to us.

Although Sharon’s actions, the ceasing of prayers representing the sacrifices, and seven year treaty are a foreshadowing of what is to happen (like Antiochus’s AOD as an example of the future AOD), I think the literal fulfillment is still to come. Remember, the Jews are already working on their third temple utensils and training the priests. Your view is definitely an interesting dualism, but it will happen exactly as Daniel said it would to the very detail.

Remember, the last seven, tribulation, covenant (whatever you want to call it) will be a literal seven year period as given in the amount of days mentioned in Daniel and Revelation.

[edit on 12/31/2007 by AshleyD]



posted on Dec, 31 2007 @ 12:26 PM
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Originally posted by Nohup
What's wrong with your life that you are so interested in endings?


Ka-Ching!



posted on Dec, 31 2007 @ 12:26 PM
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And just one more thing.


Originally posted by AshleyD
It took 49 years according to Nehemiah to rebuild Jerusalem. This answers our question why 62 and 7 sevens were mentioned instead of the simple 69 sevens and the difference between 69 sevens and 62 sevens for the Messiah.
[edit on 12/31/2007 by AshleyD]


I don't think this is the case.

Gabriel never makes the distinction that "7 'weeks' are decreed to rebuild the city". To the contrary, he states that "from the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until the annointed one, the ruler comes, there will be 7 'weeks'..."

"...and 62 'weeks'..."

It is a clear distinction of two seperate restorations and two seperate lengths of time counted out from each. The facts, after all, are that since this prophecy was given, there have been TWO restorations of Jerusalem to Israel, one in antiquity and one in our time. We know that there are TWO advents of Christ, as well. Why should we ignore these facts?

To combine the 7 and 62 into 69 concecutive "weeks" is to ignore Gabriel's distinction. Like I stated earlier, if that had been his intention, he'd simply have said, "there will be 69 'weeks'..." and left it at that. He'd have said "after the 69 'sevens', messiah will be cut off..." and left it at that.
Or he'd have said, "there will be 7 'weeks' to restore Jerusalem, and 62 counting from there until the messiah comes..." and left it at that.

But he said "after the 62 'sevens' messiah will be cut off".

Note that nothing is said of the 7 'weeks' other than "from the issuing of the decree...until the messiah comes, there shall be..."

All of this, coupled with the facts of the 1993-2000 fulfillment of Daniel's "seventieth week" paints a compelling picture of the prophecy's true interpretation.

I urge you to actually draw the timeline out on paper from 1967 to 2024. When you see that 1993-2000 fell in the exact middle, you may see this whole thing with new eyes.



posted on Dec, 31 2007 @ 12:36 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


oops, you posted another reply while I was writing my previous one.

I'll get back to you.



posted on Dec, 31 2007 @ 01:19 PM
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Originally posted by shaell
I don't think this is the case.

Gabriel never makes the distinction that "7 'weeks' are decreed to rebuild the city".


I believe he does: "Seventy sevens are decreed for your people and your holy city [Jerusalem]." Gabriel didn't just say for the people but explicitly stated the Holy City would be a countdown within the countdown.

"From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Messiah, the ruler, comes, there will be 7 sevens and 62 sevens. It [Jerusalem] will be rebuilt with streets and a trench but in times of trouble. After 62 [additional to the first 7] sevens [Implying the rebuilding of Jerusalem will take 7 sevens- which indeed it did!], the Messiah will be cut off [A Jewish idiom for death] and will have nothing [meaning He doesn't receive the "glory" during this advent and this time around He will only be a suffering servant].

So is the fact that Gabriel gave Jerusalem a special place within this countdown as important to His second coming as it was to His first advent? I'm almost certain!


[edit on 12/31/2007 by AshleyD]



posted on Jan, 5 2008 @ 09:53 AM
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Originally posted by shaell

Is it just another coincidence that "Rabin" means "the many"?

Or is this simply one more literal fulfillment of this very important prophecy?


Does it make a difference that Rabin's name was originally "Rubitzov" but his father changed his last name when he immigrated to the United States?

Last name origins & meanings:

1. Jewish (eastern Ashkenazic): status name for a rabbi, from Polish, Ukrainian, and Belorussian rabin ‘rabbi’ (ultimately from Hebrew rav).
2. French: diminutive of Raba.

Just curious.

Fascinating thread and some really good arguments.



posted on Jan, 5 2008 @ 11:12 AM
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reply to post by amitheone
 


Unless of course the bible is written to control the poppulace with the actual truth distorted. Maybe the "god" of the bible is rather a being aware of most probable weather patterns and major forces causing calamities.
I mean, it would be like a new race just coming into intelligence, and i saying to them " i will make the sun fall ......now.."(hours later) and" i make the sun rise.....now""or take credit for a hurricane we see coming in or forming on satelite.
Then i get carried away and my ego grows too much, and i start thinking of myself as a god amongst these beings...
The mistake here of course is that all life is equal in importance.



posted on Jan, 5 2008 @ 12:32 PM
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reply to post by THIseNdsnowoldKings
 


I'm not so sure about this. Although the Bible tells us to submit to human authority, it also mentions our god-given right to usurp that authority when it is exploitive. There are also numerous passages (mostly in Psalms) that mentions only fools believe everything they are told. Then there are several references in the New Testament encouraging readers to investigate the facts ourselves and not to believe everything that comes along. It admonishes us to test every new philosophy and teaching that comes along instead of swallowing it hook, line, and sinker.

True, corrupt man has used the Bible to control the masses but the actual teachings of the Bible endorse liberation and freedom from exploitive man. Why did the corrupt medieval Catholic church forbid the common man from owning a Bible? Why were those who were caught with a copy of the Bible killed? Because these exploitive leaders knew exactly what it said about their corruption and false doctrine. They purposely suppressed information to maintain their power.

So judge the man who corrupts the facts and teachings instead of the facts and teachings.



posted on Jan, 5 2008 @ 03:26 PM
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Originally posted by AshleyD
[meaning He doesn't receive the "glory" during this advent and this time around He will only be a suffering servant]


Very accurate and true. The "Christ" will have been born again as "the son of man". The Christ fully enough aware of himself will have to suffer the fools and blind fellows of the religion made around about him. The Christ will be fully aware of the foolishness. His suffering will be his inability to "show" himself.

This is the "Thief in the Night" phase of the "second coming".

It is foretold in the dule nature of the prophecy: "he comes like a lamb lead to the slaughter AND like a sheep to the shearer".

The lamb to the slaugher is the first coming where "Jesus" was hung on the cross till death.

A sheep goes to the shearer to have it's coat removed. If you have basicly deeper understandings hidden within the bible, you should understand that "hair" in representation stands for "spiritual ability/identity". The sheep that is shaved is undistinguashable from other shaved sheep.

"Suffering Servent": the christ, fully aware of himself and "the truth" will have to suffer a long time just being another voice in the croud of babbling fools.

Imagine it! the first phase of the second coming is the son of man just being mixed in with everyone else. He knows he is the christ, but he can do nothing to prove it to anyone. He just knows where people are going wrong, he knows who is full of snikers, he knows everything a good little christy should know, and all those people claiming stuff about him, and all those people claiming to know this or that, and all those people messing up and going about things all wrong, might just stop for one moment and listen if they actually "knew" the "Christ" was right there.

Oh the inhumanity!




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