reply to post by shaell
I definitely see where you're coming from and the dualism of fulfillment but I do have to point out some things. We both agree this is a dual
prophecy- no doubt. We both know it will be completely fulfilled in the end times just like it was fulfilled in the past- no doubt. We both agree the
mentioning of "62+7" instead of merely "69" is highly significant- no doubt. However, there are many Gabriel-issued facts that all
be taken into consideration and not pushed aside.
First, I take issue with the accuracy of secular history.
I understand but remember the genealogies and reigns of Hebrew kings were detailed to the year and sometimes to the day and month in the Old Testament
chronology (and even multiple gentiles and pagan kings- including Artaxerxes). You can use the dates and years given in the Bible to come to the same
date for Artaxerxes. In other words, biblical and secular history do not have conflicting time lines for Artaxerxes. According to most calculations
they differ only by a few months.
And as I stated earlier, I don't think Gabriel would have specified 62 weeks unless that's exactly what he meant.
Again, you can't forget that Gabriel also mentions "after 69 sevens." We can't throw out a part of the passage just because it doesn't fit what
we want and claim only the 62 sevens are important. We need to take the entire
passage into consideration. I totally see where you are coming
from and it is fascinating but don't ignore Gabriel's other countdown starting with 69 weeks. The information that all needs to be taken into
consideration is this:
1) Gabriel specified 69 weeks and
2) The Messiah cannot die (after 62 weeks) and then arrive (after 69 weeks). Again, it's like prophesying a person will be born in 2015 but that they
will die in 2010. Taking all of the text into consideration, we have to believe Gabriel was pointing out a countdown within a countdown.
3) We know it took the Hebrews 49 years (7 sevens) to rebuild all of Jerusalem (including the temple, the city walls, gates, etc.).
4) A total of 70 sets of seven years are decreed to fulfill all
prophecy for the Hebrews. Read Daniel 9:24 carefully
. It also mentions
as part of the equation- not just Jesus, His death, the Antichrist, etc. Again, it is a countdown within a countdown.
5) A big clue for us is that the seventy sevens were divided up into three sections (483 years, 434 years + 49 years, and 7 years). Reading Daniel
9:24 carefully, we see Jerusalem has been given a special slot in the countdown within a countdown although the total time it will take for the
Messiah is 69 weeks.
6) Secular history matches up with the chronology of the given history in the Bible.
So, Gabriel is saying a total of 70 sevens is going to take place. A total
of 483 years will pass until the Messiah is put to death for our
sins. At the start of the 69 sevens countdown, 49 of those years pertain to the rebuilding of Jerusalem. The countdown within the countdown. After the
49 weeks pass for the rebuilding of Jerusalem, they still have another 62 weeks to go
until the Messiah. 483 years total for the Messiah. 49
years for the rebuilding of Jerusalem. The remaining 62 weeks after that for a total of 69. Then the church age. Then the seven year
tribulation/covenant. Only this interpretation takes everything
into consideration for the initial fulfillment.
I wholeheartedly agree with you that there is a dual fulfillment for our time and I don't think the fact it took 49 years to rebuild Jerusalem is a
coincidence or that Gabriel specifically subtracted the years it took to build Jerusalem from the 69 to still leave 62 for no reason whatsoever. I'm
merely trying to stress the point you can't only consider the 62 sevens as important and dismiss the 69 seven's importance. You have to consider
of God's word for the initial fulfillment.
Consider these facts...
...The consequences of Sharon's actions are now a matter of historical record.
Again, I completely agree and see where you’re coming from. I think you are absolutely correct in your dualism. Still, the original 483 years total
(7 sevens for the rebuilding of Jerusalem and then an additional 62 sevens for the Messiah) is the first fulfillment. Daniel 9:24 specifically states
the rebuilding of Jerusalem is included in what we are about to be told, meaning it has it's own special time slot in the countdown within a
countdown. Daniel 9:25 implies 69 sevens total, out of these 69 sevens it takes 7 sevens for Jerusalem to be rebuilt, with still an additional 62
sevens for the Messiah (7+62 brings us back to our 69 total). The end of Daniel 9:25 is implying the rebuilding of Jerusalem is now completed.
One more thing: You had alluded earlier to Antiochus Epiphanes fulfilling the "Abomination of Desolation" prophecy... There are a few
problems with this...
No, I don't think Antiochus' AOD was the
fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy. Mainly because Jesus even told us the event was still to come. I
think it was to help us spot the AOD when it happens. Remember, the Jews of antiquity didn’t understand what Daniel meant by the 'Abomination of
desolation.' In their commentaries, they refer to Antiochus' actions as 'the abomination of desolation.' So, like Hitler was an example as a
forerunner to the coming Antichrist and like the 1993 treaty was an example of the future seven year covenant, this AOD was an example of what the
future AOD would entail as a sign to us.
Although Sharon’s actions, the ceasing of prayers representing the sacrifices, and seven year treaty are a foreshadowing of what is to happen (like
Antiochus’s AOD as an example of the future AOD), I think the literal fulfillment is still to come. Remember, the Jews are already working on their
third temple utensils and training the priests. Your view is definitely
an interesting dualism, but it will happen exactly
said it would to the very detail.
Remember, the last seven, tribulation, covenant (whatever you want to call it) will be a literal seven year period as given in the amount of days
mentioned in Daniel and Revelation.
[edit on 12/31/2007 by AshleyD]