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US: thanks for destroying our world!

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posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 04:07 AM
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Originally posted by Johnmike
This is nothing but an attempt to blame the United States for everything, as usual. Maybe it's an attempt to weaken it by forcing it to damage its own economy for nothing. Or maybe you've bought into the bull#, too.

Mdv2: Thanks for spreading ignorance.


Thanks for proving my point: America does not want to change as its (weak) economy is of greater importance than the right of existence. Self-compassion is a bad thing. The poor us, Americans, get the blame again, doesn't impress me at all. The fact is that the US does not participate in solving the problems as the biggest developed polluter in this world. The American people are responsible for this as they simply don’t want to change their lifestyles.

In reality, I mean a vast group of Americans, which I simply state as Americans. If you feel insulted, you probably live the polluting life I’ve been describing. It was not my intention to insult anyone though. Side-note: Many Americans are good in stigmatizing Muslims, yet when it comes to Americans it’s suddenly a very bad thing.


Originally posted by West Coast

This whole thread is a stereoptypical generalization.. and im getting pretty sick of them. "Blame americans for everthing"..


Perhaps it’s good to experience how millions of Muslims feel when they are labeled as terrorists by Americans.

It’s simply pathetic to come up with statements that China should change. They should, yes. However, the supreme Western country of this world should take a leading position. When it comes to war, natural resources, or anything in this world of importance, America wants to lead. Now something not so nice and easy is going on, we’re starting to blame China for being a pollution country so we don’t have to change ourselves? Try again.


Originally posted by scientist
give me a break! It's not the american people, it's the car companies. Stop pushing this blame-game agenda, it doesn't help anyone.



Originally posted by Thurisaz

You can't blame US citizens for the decisions of the Government.


In the free country of America you can choose to purchase a car free of choice. The government does not force you to purchase one of the most polluting and fuel consuming type of cars available.

I’ve worked for a subsidiary of General Motors. Let me ask you this: why are cleaner and more efficient cars manufactured here in Europe, while this is not the case in the US? Because many Americans are not willing to change their bad habits so there’s no need to change anything for carmakers. Again, no carmaker forces you to purchase a SUV.


Originally posted by wingman77
ride a bicycle, grow as much of your own food as possible, generate your own electricity, boycott all corporations, and stop eating meat. To do anything less and have such a fervent opinion about pollution is hypocritical.


That's the ideal situation. However, that's also an impossible ideal to achieve these days, with our living conditions. It does not mean that you should not try to live a cleaner life. I myself purchase so-called green electricity, I ride my bike everyday - living in a country of approximately 20 million inhabitants and 15 million bicycles. Additionally, I have solar collectors and use rainwater to flush my toilets. Moreover, I drive a fuel-efficient American car. A good start I would say.


Originally posted by SaviorComplex
The United States is not the chief pollutor, it has been surpassed by China in 2007, and yet they do not have to reduce pollution.

And China is not hurting for money at the moment; it can afford its own innovations. The beg and plea for Western governments to just give them money is nothing but an effort at wealth-distribution. If you want your government do give the Chinese money, which will be an absolute waste, go right ahead.


They do, I’d like to stress you to re-read my OP. In contrast to the US, they are willing to achieve changes. However, we cannot expect them to be as innovative as we are in inventing solutions as they simply lack the know-how due to a lack of education, technological knowledge and the fact that they are not as developed as we, Westerners, are. Therefore, we need to help China and other developing countries.


Originally posted by Johnmike
The theory that the emission of carbon dioxide by humans significantly warms the planet is far from certain.


I tend to disagree and I am among the vast majority of civilians, politicians and more importantly: scientists who have proven that we are responsible for the increased effect of global warming. Even your president admitted it after years of denial.


Originally posted by PrplHrt
You should amend the title of this thread and consider apologizing. Not all Americans are polluters. Some of us lead by example, however, you can't force other people to treat the planet well.


The US simply does not co-operate in trying to solve our global problem. Bali is proving that right now. Therefore, I can sarcastically thank America for destroying our world. After all, it’s the biggest Western polluter that does not want to change. I do offer my apologies to those Americans who feel insulted and don’t live this ‘’American polluting life’’.




posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 04:48 AM
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Negative , the answer to this question lays within a future dipicted only to those who see the real truth & view through open idea s, media reports & inclusive reporting ,

Take the rose tinted specticles off & witness whats already taken place



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 04:57 AM
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Another thing which alot of countries found annoying was the statement by the US delegation to the UN Conference, in which they basically said that the US wanted to lead and everyone else should just fall in line.

How arrogant is that?



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 05:18 AM
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Location: European Union?

Why don't you look in your own backyard?


Originally posted by Mdv2
I’ve worked for a subsidiary of General Motors. Let me ask you this: why are cleaner and more efficient cars manufactured here in Europe, while this is not the case in the US?


I'm shouting Bollocks!!


Frankfurt - Big cars from Germany have consolidated their lead in the undesirable ranking of European vehicles that emit most polluting carbon dioxide (CO2), a study published on Thursday found.


This is exceptional:


The EU now wants to reduce average emission levels to 130 g/km by 2012.

"It is ironic that the country that did so much to get a European consensus on new climate targets earlier this year is also home to the carmakers that are holding back progress on one of the most important ways of achieving them," T&E Director Jos Dings said.

"Germany's fine automotive engineers should be focusing on making cars leaner and more fuel efficient. Sadly, based on recent progress, they mostly seem to be intent on building ever heavier, larger and more gas guzzling cars that simply don't belong in the 21st century," he added.


German cars 'top polluters' 15/11/2007


MAP-The Carbon Monitoring For Action Web site has Web tools for sorting and mapping data about global warming pollution from power companies around the world



World's two fastest growing economies, China and India, have earned the dubious distinction of being home to some of the biggest polluting firms across the globe



According to CARMA's massive database, which contains information on the carbon emissions of over 50,000 power plants and 4,000 power companies worldwide, Australia is the world's worst polluter per capita, producing five times as much carbon from generating power as China


Oh dear... Australia is the worst per capita?


The US ranked second with eight tons of carbon per head - 16 times more than that produced by India. The US is now be the only developed nation not to ratify the Kyoto Protocol which sets binding limits on developed countries to curb the carbon emissions blamed for global warming.

Developing nations like China and India are not bound by any targets
Holy Smokes! World's worst polluters list is out

Anyone notice the slight problem here? China and India are not bound by any targets because they are developing...

This is a worry when you consider the dramatic increase in China's emissions:


Kyoto Protocol, although China is not required to reduce its carbon emissions under the terms of the present agreement. On June 19, 2007, the Netherlands Environmental Assessment Agency announced, based on an analysis of fossil fuel consumption (including specially the coal power plants) and cement production data, that China surpassed the United States as the world's largest emitter of carbon dioxide, putting out 6,200 million tons, to America's 5,800 million.[11]

wiki
[11] China now no. 1 in CO2 emissions; USA in second position



Stumason
Pardon? You can't blame American people for the actions of their Government?

And there I was thinking you guys elected your officials.......

So your admitting to being a despotic dictatorship then and your elections are just a charade?

Seriously, the OP might have generalised against Americans, but every single one that has commented in this thread has actually lived up to the generalisation itself....


No, I am not admitting ^
They are your words.

My point is, you cannot blame every single USA citizen for the decisions the Government makes

Get it?




[edit on 14-12-2007 by Thurisaz]

[edit on 14-12-2007 by Thurisaz]



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 05:27 AM
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Originally posted by Mdv2
I’ve worked for a subsidiary of General Motors. Let me ask you this: why are cleaner and more efficient cars manufactured here in Europe, while this is not the case in the US? Because many Americans are not willing to change their bad habits so there’s no need to change anything for carmakers. Again, no carmaker forces you to purchase a SUV.

Well they certainly dont discourage it.

To me, its very, very simple: Petrol prices.

That's why the poor fuel guzzling cars are in America and the cleaner fuel effiecient cars are in Europe.

ITS MORE THAN TWICE AS MUCH PER GALLON in Europe. Out of the petrol price in my country, 60-70% is goverment taxes (I MEAN WTF!!!).

We cant afford anything but fuel effiecient cars

So in short: Double the price of fuel in America, problem solved. Lots more will look into more effecient cars.



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 05:30 AM
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I'm just wondering, if it wasn't for american innovation, where would we be?

ya, our industrialized nations causes pollution, but by what I've read england wasn't that clean when they were burning coal. Compared to that, well, there's been a massive improvement. and well, horse and buggies, and the wastes that the horses would leave on the streets....well, that couldn't have been too healthy either. Neither is burning wood to stay warm. And, well, we all enjoy our electricity don't we?

I'm just wondering, would we really be better off with all this technology? Or, maybe that world without technology would make our global warming scare seem like child's play.

Get off the blaming of america bit, if it wasn't for american, it's quite possible that we all wouldn't be enjoying all this nice luxury living to begin with.

by the way, if you double the price of fuel, umm....I make so little, the cost of getting to work, in my nice fuel efficient car would probably eat up enough of my paycheck to make work not worth it...so well, go ahead, make my day....and well, there won't be any taxes paid from the job I am working!



[edit on 14-12-2007 by dawnstar]



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 05:33 AM
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Originally posted by dawnstar
Get off the blaming of america bit, if it wasn't for american, it's quite possible that we all wouldn't be enjoying all this nice luxury living to begin with.


Nope, they can't. It's always the fault of the US. If it wasn't for us, and our horrible, horrible ways, things would be so much better.

Remember, Clinton didn't sign Kyoto. Even he knew that it would shoot the US economy in the head. Kyoto gives India and China a pass since they are "developing".

Didn't I read that in a few years, China will have more coal burning plants than anyone else? It would be the same as if EVERY American driving the worse SUV available.



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 05:45 AM
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These developing countries have something we didn't have when we were developing....all those chemicals that we've come up with in the past century. we don't even know what the real effect on the human body is from these chemicals, and they are playing with them like they are cotton candy or something, then sending their wares out to the world to consume.



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 05:47 AM
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Originally posted by dawnstar
Nope, they can't. It's always the fault of the US. If it wasn't for us, and our horrible, horrible ways, things would be so much better.


I do not agree with that at all, and i really think others should lay of this childish behavior as well. afterall... my dad can beat your dad...doesnt get us anywhere.


Remember, Clinton didn't sign Kyoto. Even he knew that it would shoot the US economy in the head. Kyoto gives India and China a pass since they are "developing".


This isnt about shooting your economy in the head or about china not having to lower their emmissions. What exactly do you think? that Americas economy is only based on fossil fuels?


For example, the US trade deficit with China is more than twice the size of the US trade deficit with OPEC. The US deficit with Japan is about the size of the US deficit with OPEC. With an overall US trade deficit of more than $800 billion, the deficit with OPEC only comprises one-eighth.

Source

This would be a good subject to make changes in, to make the american economy better, for examble.


Didn't I read that in a few years, China will have more coal burning plants than anyone else? It would be the same as if EVERY American driving the worse SUV available.


I dont know what predictions you've read, but it still doesnt justify any nation to do nothing our refuse to participate in this "Global issue".



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 05:48 AM
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Originally posted by Thurisaz
Location: European Union?

Why don't you look in your own backyard?


Ok, shall I?

Average CO² emission in Europe: 160g/km, in 2008 this should be reduced to 140 g/km. The current average CO2 emissions for the USA is approximately 260g/km or even higher. Almost double the emission of European cars


Example:
Gasoline
Malibu (6cyl, 3.5L, A4) @ 25 mpg combined average > CO2 ~ 250 grams/km
Pontiac G6 (4cyl, 2.4L,A4) @ 27 mpg combined average > CO2 ~ 262 grams/km

Diesel
Opel Corsa, MY07 (1.3CDTi (75PS)) @ 51.2 mpg combined average > CO2 ~ 124 grams/km
Toyota Auris (1.4 D-4D Multi 5) @ 47.1 mpg combined average > CO2 ~ 131 grams/km

Hybrid
CIVIC (1.4 IMA ES) @ 50 mpg combined average > CO2 ~ 109 grams/km #
Prius (1.5 VVT-i Hybrid) @ 55 mpg combined average > CO2 ~ 104 grams/km

www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk...


Average emissions of European sold cars:
1 PSA Peugeot Citroen 142
2 Fiat 144
3 Renault 147
4 Toyota 153
5 Honda 154
6 General Motors 157
7 Ford 162
8 Suzuki 166
9 Volkswagen 166
10 Hyundai 167
11 Nissan 168
12 Mazda 173
13 BMW 184
14 DaimlerChrysler 188

US emissions are a complete joke. Even the most polluting German cars are less polluting than the average American car. The list stated above is about European sold cars e.g. General Motor's European Subsidiary Opel.



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 05:50 AM
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www.csmonitor.com...

we did do something, now let's see if our crazy president will sign it into law!!

matter of fact, I kind of think we were one of the first ones to do something, way back in the 70's.......



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 05:52 AM
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reply to post by dawnstar
 


Originally posted by dawnstar
Nope, they can't. It's always the fault of the US. If it wasn't for us, and our horrible, horrible ways, things would be so much better.


I do not agree with that at all, and i really think others should lay of this childish behavior as well. afterall... my dad can beat your dad...doesnt get us anywhere.


Remember, Clinton didn't sign Kyoto. Even he knew that it would shoot the US economy in the head. Kyoto gives India and China a pass since they are "developing".


This isnt about shooting your economy in the head or about china not having to lower their emmissions. What exactly do you think? that Americas economy is only based on fossil fuels?


For example, the US trade deficit with China is more than twice the size of the US trade deficit with OPEC. The US deficit with Japan is about the size of the US deficit with OPEC. With an overall US trade deficit of more than $800 billion, the deficit with OPEC only comprises one-eighth.

Source

This would be a good subject to make changes in, to make the american economy better, for examble.


Didn't I read that in a few years, China will have more coal burning plants than anyone else? It would be the same as if EVERY American driving the worse SUV available.


I dont know what predictions you've read, but it still doesnt justify any nation to do nothing our refuse to participate in this "Global issue".



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 06:02 AM
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Originally posted by Bluess
I dont know what predictions you've read, but it still doesnt justify any nation to do nothing our refuse to participate in this "Global issue".


The thing here though is that virtually every nation is willing to do something, except one, the USA, who wants to do it their way (and have everyone else do it their way as well) so they don't "hurt their economy".

Now, tell me, is global climate change not going to hurt your economy much worse than just trying to cut emissions? Honestly, the USA is so short sighted it is unreal....


sty

posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 06:19 AM
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It is certain that we will loose the battle with the climate change. Ok, we can argue that we are not the cause of the climate change, but what we cannot argue is that Climate change is happening.
I believe that the initial computer modelling were correct - we supposed to change the climate with 1-2 Celsius degrees in 100 years. But something did not go quite right - a computer output will depend on the input data. What is strange is that the scientists "updated" the climate change data every single year in the last 3 years , reducing the time-scale about 3-5 times each time . From 1000 years to north-pole ice melt predicted in 2000 now they admit 2012 ice-free. This is not the fault of the computer-modelling prediction. There is something else - not accounted in the equations. Some people believe it is Nibiru , some believe it is the crossing of our solar system over the galactic plan of Milky Way .
It is easy to blame the "Sun" for all the trouble , and it is right to do so. But the Sun only interacts to a more complex galactic system. My prediction is here on ATS that 2008 is the last normal year we will see. We have to be realistic - we cannot revert the climate change. We cannot calm down our sun ( look @ www.spaceweather.com ) , and the struggle is survival.
US. is not participating to the Kyoto protocol because they know the climate change is 50 times faster that it should be if produced by man . New Orleans proved how Hollywood society is reacting on major disaster. Simply - not everyone behaves like human during the natural disaster. Maybe this is why silence is the best choice at this point.
God bless us all....

Sty
eastern europe

[edit on 14-12-2007 by sty]



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 06:22 AM
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reply to post by stumason
 


I'm not sure about the US being short sighted - more likely, they just don't believe the hype about man made GW.

It's also a problem when a country has a (perceived) mentality of more is better, bigger is better etc

If you have a national mentality that worships money for it's own sake, this is what you get.

I've also seen dozens of examples on this site and others where the "head in the sand" mentality has prevailed - and this doesn't help either. Ignoring a problem won't make it go away.

That said, I'm not a supporter of AGW - I think it's a lot of hype and doom mongering, without much substance, and by that I mean REAL concensus amongst scientists.

More important to me, is to halt the pollution of oceans, rivers and land by industrial waste.



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 06:23 AM
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Originally posted by scientist
give me a break! It's not the american people, it's the car companies. Stop pushing this blame-game agenda, it doesn't help anyone.


If people don't buy them, why would they make them?


sty

posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 06:30 AM
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forgot to mention the "chain-reaction" effect caused by the HUGE amounts of frozen methane - 20xtimes more "green-house" active than CO2 and enough of it to surpass tens of times the quantity of green-houses the man kind ever emitted since the industrial revolution..


www.sciam.com...

[edit on 14-12-2007 by sty]



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 06:51 AM
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Originally posted by stumason
The thing here though is that virtually every nation is willing to do something, except one, the USA, who wants to do it their way (and have everyone else do it their way as well) so they don't "hurt their economy".


No, the rest of the countries aren't willing to do anything substantive. All they are willing to do is sign useless pieces of paper that even if everyone were following it to the letter would make no significant impact on "global warming." Thd only thing it is designed to do is make you feel better about yourself, help you sleep a little easier at night when you know you aren't doing a damn thing.

The only other thing they are willing to do is blame the United States for their own inaction. "We would reduce emissions, we would do something about global warming, but those damn Americans won't, so we can't." If you want to do something, do it yourself, and stop looking at America as your scapegoat.



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 07:00 AM
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The EU already has self imposed targets on cutting emissions and is pushing for global targets....

What's the USA doing again?



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 07:06 AM
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reply to post by dawnstar
 


There's me thinking Britain started the innovation of the industrial revolution, gez...next you'll be telling me you guys spoke English before us


Anywho..

Two things I've learnt from this thread.

1. ATS members still cannot hold a decent debate without someone trashing the thread

2. Americans (sorry guys) act like children when it comes to fair criticism

Am I surprised? Well, point one yes.

Sadly, with the second point, I'm not. The national psyche of America seems to believe no matter what happens, the United States is above the international community.

News flash people, you ain't. None of us are.

And don't give me all "but we gave the world this, that and the other".

Bollocks.

British and other European members can trail out our nations history in what we've achieved, but why don't we? because we don't act like children.

Yes, China and India do have to sign up, but that's not an excuse for the United States not to play ball. Even members of the Republican Party are amazed at Bush refusing to agree with the European Union.



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