Conspiracy against true spiritual potential

Excellent thread OP. There are some really good replies in this thread that are a must read.

I want to be short and share with you my experience.

I started as a normal Christian, but never understood exactly what made me Christian. I also have to say that my family was not very forceful on me regarding religion. I did not have that "grandmother" to force me to go to Church every Sunday. But for most of my teens I was a Christian, not because I chose to be one, but because everyone around me was one.

Then I started to ask question regarding Christianity and if this religion fits with me, because I was a Christian, but I never even tried to understand this religion and see if it fits with my inner self. In my journey to discover Christianity the only thing I found was that it did not resonate with me. I started to see that officialy everyone knew me as a Christian, but I never was one.

After seeing that Christianity is not for me, I discarded it. Guess what I became? An Atheist. But before I became an Atheist I had to get rid of that fear of God. Because as an ex-Christian I knew that "God" would punish me for this act. How foolish I was. It is amazing, but I actually felt fear by becoming an Atheist. I was afraid God will punish me. This is how brainwashed I was into Christianity. I am a happy case, I never really was a Christian and I don't really want to know how hard this transition can be for a real Christian or any religious person.

So here I was an Atheist. It was pretty nice, better than Christianity. As an Atheist you start to look more at your own self since there is no God. It felt strange to live in this world and think there is nothing more to it. Slowly I started to see that Atheists lacked purpose. Many say I am born, I live and I die and that is it. I did not felt that. Even as an Atheist I saw purpose and reason everywhere.

Then in one night everything changed. I stoped being an Atheist. Why? Because Atheists have no God. After that night I had one. All I know is that there is a God or an energy that can take that name. It is not Jesus, Buddha or Allah. It has nothing to do with religion. God is not in any way related to religion. That was the day when I had no religion and I had God into my heart. Strange ha? I think you can call that spirituality.

So here I am now, with no religion what so ever, the best way to call my faith would be spirituality. I have a God, but he has no name, I am in no way scared of him like I was when I was a Christian. I like to think that "God" is your friend, he is not above you, below you or in any way different, he is just like you, but at a different level.

From all my experience, spirituality is the best, for me that is. Christianity has fear in it, which a real God would never promote. Atheism, well, it lacks purpose while all Atheists have a purpose. For me, purpose is a reason why God exists. I feel that spirituality has no limits, while all religions are full of limits and rules. Spirituality is individual, unique and limitless.

I do think the OP is right. Giving this freedom to the people of Earth would mean the destruction of all religions. So yes, in a way, all religions, including Atheism work against spirituality, hence the conspiracy.

I don't understand, why people are so jumpy in the case of spirituality, they don't treat it like any other science or theory. I will not apply a blind faith in it, but I can only apply study, experimentation, further results or agreement with the past results. Like Skyfloating suggested try to concentrate in one thing for a minute or more. This is very valid experiment which show clearly that our brain is been electrically activated by an unknown source detach from our physical body which I will call the soul. When trying to understand the effect and causes there is no need of any jumping and asking abstract questions in the beginning, there is no need to reinvent the “Gods” every time, try to see how the previous theories have been, are they logically satisfactory, do they have some experimental results and what is the extent of this concentration or meditation.
Ironically sciences have huge number of theory which have never been proved and still study them, apply math to them, enforce philosophy to them and behind any further find still believe on them. Basically they believe in theory with no proofs to back them. But when it comes to Spirituality or the search for the Soul, science don’t either bother to acknowledge the theory. Some maverick scientist try they best to push this study but most of the time in clandestine manner that reflect the way Galileo and other past scientist where working.
All I can say is to give spirituality a chance; it is very much logical and scientific.


Kacou

reply to post by Cythraul


Your thread essentially realizes the same thing...the importance of saying "There´s a third party here". Strange that it didnt get any discussion going.

I am quite happy to be christian and atheist bashing without that bashing coming from EITHER of the sources.

No offense to them though: I have friends who call themselves christians and atheists. But it is important to factor in and count with "the third voice" which is right inbetween the two mentioned (Synthesis).

Well, I guess as I stated, maybe poorly, is that any conversation with another person which has a set of habits is sometimes difficult. Afterall, the minister or the Pope is an authority figure. Usually they equate that people should live in Peace and then they state their habits which is according to the way that they believe.

Do you see the problem there? It is only their habits they wish to invoke on you, not the total aspect of there being more. It is like saying that to them, it is cut and dried and The Bible has the answers and one should read The Bible and seek the answer. Really? That is all that there is to religion or Spirituality. How can anyone person say? They state that it is because they are an authority figure, and first you have to be that person first. So in the end, if you mention something that they may not listen to or completely like, they invoke some sort of punishment on you, or only have limited time to answer as they see fit, which is usually you should seek more faith and religion. I like to think of it as seeking Enlightenment in the end. What were those type of people actually seeking? They were seeking to pursue this world and let God handle the rest of it, so as not to think about it, but only concerning how they think that it should be.

Perhaps the question then is "What would God have to do with it, if you are seeking to dictate to God in the first place -- as in God will handle it?"

Gees, I thought I only see humans on this Planet, and I can not assume that somehow God only thought that He will handle it. What if God does not want to without people seeking out what God is really doing?

Okay, so they go on about how people should live according to what they believe is religion citing some text from The Bible. Which text was that again? In another passage, there may be another message that may be nearer to what God really intended to be an answer to whatever it is that they thought they were seeking? Those type of people claim that it is this way, and it should only be this way. I say that I do not know, but I am willing to learn -- and at least to me -- become more Enlightened. That may not mean that I really do, but at least I am seeking that, and not some answer that may or may not fit the purpose of whatever question I may be asking.

So, I read books that stated that when a negative thought comes into your brain to say "Cancel, cancel". At first you will not even catch those negative thought right away and may say "Cancel, cancel" perhaps a minute or two later. But do say "Cancel, cancel" anyway as soon as you realize that you should have because you had a negative thought. After 30 days, thoughts will not enter into your brain or be the same once you do that. What will happen? Well, at first, after reprogramming your own brain, you may not have many thoughts at all. But keep at it, because you are changing your brain pattern and that will take time. Learn to relax, which also can be done, if you went to a bookstore and got a tape from a real professional, that guides you into deep relaxation. It will take some time, but once you have that deep relaxed feeling, which is different than what you think, you will never forget it, even if you do not relax like you should.

So, people will fear and not even try it. Will it make your life better to have more money? Perhaps not, so it will take courage. Will people get along with you as you seek Enlightenment? Not necessarily, for each person is on his/her own path, and that is all that can happen. But be aware, and alert, which is all these exercises of the mind and brain will help with. You will be more alert and more aware and possibly without going the other way towards getting angry see that it helps.

There still will be times when all of that is hard to do, so usually alone is the best place to practice those relaxed aware feelings for about 20 minutes a day. Eventually though you change your center of focus, for at first, you really have not found a new focus, and that also will take time.

Then perhaps you will see that it is your own path towards Spirituality that only you can control and you can not control others (I know, because people will state that they can not do those exercises and that they can not relax and all of that.) They may even get angry at you, for dismissing how this world really is according to them. Why march off of a cliff in the first place, because you were already aware of how this world really is, and that you did not have the need to remind other people in the first place. You see, they have to tell other people and state that because they feel a need to state that. That is negativity out of them, actually.

Now, if the negativity was never mentioned, would the world be better off. Perhaps not, but then, why dwell over something that you could not change unless you became more positive and sought a different thought process. The only one you can Save is yourself. No one else may care enough about you to Save you, but always remind you of the negativity of this World. They seem to state that they require telling you about that.

Well, I thought it was God who judges and not people, but people will judge just to play God, or like a God. Well, we may be made in His Image, but then, dictating how God will judge stating by them that it will be negative is again another negative thought. Perhaps God will judge another way, as in being positive, if the person seeks the positiveness of a positive Judge whom is God.

So where does it state that they perseucute you or such, or that you do the same and that it is the Way to seek more Guidance of Faith from Faith. Perhaps that just is not a Truth, and the Truth was for God to Decide and not for humans to state that they knew what God intended as what they thought which to me was only dictating to God. Thus, for many people, old habits may even die hard. So why should I perhaps do the same? Perhaps, being real about what may happen and avoiding those circumstances become more important. To do that, becoming more alert and more aware may be the best thing to do. Will that be Spirituality though? Perhaps not, as it does depend also on other people in the first place. Knowing the difference may be important though. And with that Wisdom and Knowledge perhaps you can achieve more in the end. Thus no conspiracy, because you equated to a different thought process which leaves more room for more Wisdom then.

Originally posted by Pericle


After seeing that Christianity is not for me, I discarded it. Guess what I became? An Atheist.

Isnt that interesting. "Stages of Development".

But before I became an Atheist I had to get rid of that fear of God. Because as an ex-Christian I knew that "God" would punish me for this act. How foolish I was. It is amazing, but I actually felt fear by becoming an Atheist. I was afraid God will punish me. This is how brainwashed I was into Christianity.

The whole set-up is held in place by fear. And the only time one recognizes that is the moment one wants to let go of it. Most would rather be safe than honest. Good job.

So here I was an Atheist. It was pretty nice, better than Christianity. As an Atheist you start to look more at your own self since there is no God. It felt strange to live in this world and think there is nothing more to it. Slowly I started to see that Atheists lacked purpose. Many say I am born, I live and I die and that is it. I did not feel that. Even as an Atheist I saw purpose and reason everywhere.

Again, interesting. Thats the wall I keep coming to when discussing with atheists. "Whats the purpose?" I ask. "There is none" they respond. Feels kind of like resignation to me.

Then in one night everything changed. I stoped being an Atheist. Why? Because Atheists have no God. After that night I had one. All I know is that there is a God or an energy that can take that name. It is not Jesus, Buddha or Allah. It has nothing to do with religion. God is not in any way related to religion. That was the day when I had no religion and I had God into my heart. Strange ha? I think you can call that spirituality.

A lot of people (who actually make it that far) take exactly that path. From God to No God back to God...but a new kind of God...Spirituality indeed.
The path is called Thesis - Antithesis - Synthesis...or wholeness.

From all my experience, spirituality is the best, for me that is. Christianity has fear in it, which a real God would never promote. Atheism, well, it lacks purpose while all Atheists have a purpose. For me, purpose is a reason why God exists. I feel that spirituality has no limits, while all religions are full of limits and rules. Spirituality is individual, unique and limitless.

yeah...very much so.

Welcome to a place beyond black & white thinking, where anything is possible.

Disclaimer

Ive been having fun bashing christianity, atheism and materialism here and am happy and surprised I am not in the minority I thought I was.

But of course, if you take spirituality "one step higher" you stop bashing christianity/atheism as well. You become "integral" and "whole" and view all belief-systems as valid within their framework. You guys know what I mean?

reply to post by AmoebaSized


I see your point much better in this recent post than in your first post. Thank you. Habituation of belief-systems indeed!

While we strongly differ in method, I agree with your overall message.

An add-on to the positive/negative thing:

I stopped practicing the normal type of "positive thinking" a long time ago, because it supresses negativity. Paradoxically, supressing negativity only makes it stronger and bigger. Compassion and non-resistance allows it to dissipate, which makes it easier to switch to the positve.

Hope that makes sense.

Originally posted by kacou
I don't understand, why people are so jumpy in the case of spirituality, they don't treat it like any other science or theory.

I do. Back in the old days the overcame superstition with science. They mistake spirituality with superstition and con-men without taking the time to discern. I cant blame them...the "market" is full of con-men....enough scams to make you get sick of the whole topic and turn your back on it.

The second reason is that the "real stuff" is pretty dangerous to the status quo of society. Its dangerous to give power back to each and every individual (at least for "them").

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Disclaimer

Ive been having fun bashing christianity, atheism and materialism here and am happy and surprised I am not in the minority I thought I was.

But of course, if you take spirituality "one step higher" you stop bashing christianity/atheism as well. You become "integral" and "whole" and view all belief-systems as valid within their framework. You guys know what I mean?

Indeed mate. There comes a time when you realise everything around you is in fact a part of you, so no matter how different it is, you accept it as if it were you.

Only then can you respect and love the differences between people. Each of us has his own path and way, we all have to respect that. One day we will all stand united as one, that is why our current differences should not be an issue.

This world and everything created was made out of love, we can only grow with love. If your religion teaches fear, then you should think again if you are on the right track.

reply to post by Skyfloating


You wrote:
“The second reason is that the "real stuff" is pretty dangerous to the status quo of society. Its dangerous to give power back to each and every individual (at least for "them").”
Yes I can understand the fear behind the curtain.
But don’t you think that science is about to loose in this denial?
Science affirms that the human species is an emergence from natural evolutionary forces.
As far as Humanist Manifesto II believes, the total personality is a function of the biological organism transacting in a social and cultural context.
I have nothing against people to wish to believe this, what I am against is to promote this idea as a science dogma where by you will lose all senses of true objectivity if when investigating evidence which will contradict this doctrine.
Science = religion
So science uses the same principal as religion to spread their values.
Kacou

reply to post by kacou


Id actually differntiate between science and materialism here. Not all scientists are under the rule of materialism, darwinism, atheism and marxism (the four of which fit together quite well in creating a dull and purposeless attitude toward life:lol

Id rate these types of science a mini-step higher than religion. Look at the fruits of science...I am using one of its fruits right now: The Internet.

I just think science is amazingly slow, it needs like 50 years to make a simple realization.

If you look at certain mystical- and science-fiction literature from the 18 hundreds, you will see that these mystics and sci-fi writers figured stuff out a bit quicker than science.

Its not science itself that is flawed but the people interpreting what science is. So if you assign more importance to "what is already known and proven" (past) than to what is unseen, possible, not yet proven (future), you become that slow.

And it could be a conspiracy of course...what someone once called "The New Inquisition".

To reform science you´d need to clean it from all the lobbyist and marketing baggage (companies paying for certain "scientific results") and clean it from several taboos (stuff a scientist is not allowed to speculate on without loosing his job) and it would need to factor in consciousness as something of more importance than merely a few chemical reactions.

as I said before, I don't believe there is a conspiracy to suppress spirituality. not as I understand the term conspiracy.

conspiracy:
1. the act of conspiring.
2. an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot.
3. a combination of persons for a secret, unlawful, or evil purpose: He joined the conspiracy to overthrow the government.
4. Law. an agreement by two or more persons to commit a crime, fraud, or other wrongful act.
5. any concurrence in action; combination in bringing about a given result.

source: ( dictionary.reference.com... )

trying to stay away from the religion vs. atheist thing, I see this as a spiritual view vs. a materialistic view.

the reason I believe the materialist has such a hard time getting into the sprit side of life is, they cant objectively observe the spiritual experience. its the whole mind set of the materialist. if it cant be objectively observed within the confines of a scientific experiment, than it does not exist. I think the problem lies in the inability to rely personally on the subjective experience.

in my opinion, and im sure many here would agree, spiritual growth is made on a personal level. it cant be done in group setting. and this is where I come to a fork in the road with respect to conspiracy. I do not believe there can be a conspiracy against my personal spiritual growth. or anyone's for that mater. I have freedom of choice in what I believe or don't believe. no amount of chains and shackles will prevent me from spiritual growth. every experience has the potential for spiritual growth. more often then not, the most difficult of experiences when overcome have paradigm behind them.

I also would like to note, that the institution of religion ( in my opinion ) is very different form ones spiritual growth. religion is not an institution of laws. it was not created for the purpose of control. it does not seek to surpress spiritual growth. religion is not the evil of the world. and religion does not start wars..........people do........and the people are not brainwashed. they misunderstand the principals of their sacred texts. and I say principals, because the texts, like the bible, are just textbooks to ones personal spiritual growth. you can't learn how to fly a fighter plane by reading the flight manual. you must experience it before you will understand the principals in the manual. all the religions sacred texts are just like that. when the people who have only "conspiracy" in mind influence great pain upon the world, well, they have gone away from the sacred text in which their chosen religion was founded. a great example of this is the suicide bomber. would anyone really say that Islam is the problem?

sorry for the rant Skyfloating. I had to get it out.

OOPS!!
double post.

[edit on 13-12-2007 by JSR]

reply to post by Skyfloating



wow Sky, you should be a politician!

you cut all the dirt to two sides, then spontaneously created a third group in between, and immediately hailed it as the best and proper way to be.

Bravo!

reply to post by runetang


I know. Awful isnt it?

Thats why I added the Disclaimer to this page.

reply to post by JSR


I tend to want to discuss that.

Since I dont believe that humans are inherently stupid, I have to ask myself where the obvious stupidity of polarization and self-limitation comes from.

Since the source of it is hidden to me, I begin assuming that there is something behind the curtains of my perception, acting to supress freedom and well-being on a grand scale.

Of course, in order to believe in a conspiracy in this respect, you first have to believe that something is wrong with the world. Maybe I am mistaken and all is really well and the way its supposed to be.

reply to post by Skyfloating


Do you have a theory about what kind of conspiracy you may think is behind the repression of human true spirituality?
I would like to read it.
My theory is been influence by some late writer which in my sense where warning us to this very existence and for sure my own experience in life from childhood to now.
I will make a compilation of what I have learn from this auteur and posted there some time in the future.

Kacou

reply to post by kacou


There are a bunch of theories out there.

My personal theory is that of a cosmic conspiracy rather than a purely earth-bound conspiracy. From a slightly shifted perspective it wouldnt be a "conspiracy" but more of a wicked game. Like being tricked into incarnating on to this planet without knowing that its a trap-like game thats difficult to get out of.

I look forward to hearing your version.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Who is behind this conspiracy we cant be sure of, but we can see its effects.

Ok, interesting posit. So, you must have a hypothesis. Who do you think is responsible? Is it the aliens, wanting to keep our species backward? Is there someone or something perhaps more abstract, powerful, and sinister...an anti-God?

You spoke about "techniques" for personal dev't. Do you mind sharing? I've tried meditating but I found its made me more irritable towards others. Would you know why a lot of meditation practitioners experience this?

Originally posted by reject
Ok, interesting posit. So, you must have a hypothesis. Who do you think is responsible? Is it the aliens, wanting to keep our species backward? Is there someone or something perhaps more abstract, powerful, and sinister...an anti-God?

I gave my take on this in the above-post to JSR. Of course I am not sure about it, hence the necessity for discussion.

You spoke about "techniques" for personal dev't. Do you mind sharing? I've tried meditating but I found its made me more irritable towards others. Would you know why a lot of meditation practitioners experience this?

Certain forms of meditation would do that to you because highlighting the inner-world uncovers stuff you dont want to necessarily see. Practitioners then go on to forget the second-step of the equation: To change what they uncover.

In other words: Meditation does not create the unease but only highlights the unease already there, albeit at a subtle level.

The whole point of uncovering stuff (such as irritating thought-patterns) is to change it to the better (to preferable thought-patterns). A lot of meditation stops at the uncovering though.

This is only my opinion on the subject. Lookout for other posters opinions.