Conspiracy against true spiritual potential

reply to post by kosmicjack


I agree with you KosmicJack. OP, I don't think aetheism = materialism, as your first post implies.
And some atheists meditate, while some atheists also engage in personal development and spirituality. Think Buddhists, for one.
Spirituality and religion are 2 different things; one may or may not walk a spiritual path through any religion OR atheism.

reply to post by blueorder


What i want it to demonstrate here was the ridiculous claim that many religious or believers people preach that love is the monopole of their manuscript.
Love regenerate from in you not in any bible Koran or any other book.
Contrary to popular belief Love is part of the human spirit, and not part of any God or Gods.

(Gen 22 NIV) Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, "Abraham!" "Here I am," he replied. [2] Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about." .
This above is what love means to the Bible, just another way to cheat and dogmatised human.

kacou

Originally posted by dAlen
dont think there is a conspiracy so to speak.

Unless of course a few Romans get together to establish what will henceforth be truth and destroy any alternative.

We must be careful that which we oppose, or we transform into the very thing that we oppose. Make sense?

Yes it does, in fact.

dAlen

Originally posted by kacou
What i want it to demonstrate here was the ridiculous claim that many religious or believers people preach that love is the monopole of their manuscript.
Love regenerate from in you not in any bible Koran or any other book.
Contrary to popular belief Love is part of the human spirit, and not part of any God or Gods.

that is your belief, Christians, Jews, Muslims etc would say the love is a result of the creator, as all things eminate from the creator.

(Gen 22 NIV) Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, "Abraham!" "Here I am," he replied. [2] Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about." .
This above is what love means to the Bible, just another way to cheat and dogmatised human.

I personally do not follow literally bible passages, particularly ancient Old Testament texts, look for underlying messages etc

Nothing, but hogwash imo. Atheism/Materialism/Secularism is a concept outside of anything having to do with personal belief systems, whether they are spiritual, christian, pagan, buddhist, etc....
There is a general concept of ethics that is followed and agreed upon, and it may be influenced by your religion or spirituality or just your simple conscience, this is also what developed a system of legislation.
I fail to see how you would attribute someone's ideologies as suppressing another's 'spirituality'. Would you not have control of your own beliefs, regardless?

Originally posted by forestlady
OP, I don't think aetheism = materialism, as your first post implies.
And some atheists meditate, while some atheists also engage in personal development and spirituality. Think Buddhists, for one.
Spirituality and religion are 2 different things; one may or may not walk a spiritual path through any religion OR atheism.

You´re right. Actually they are two seperate things. I just happen to have met a lot of atheists who spill the baby with the bathwater and deny ANY type of thing unseen or "emprically unproven".

Addition: My definition of spirituality allows for the possibility of a supreme being, which atheism doesnt.

reply to post by laiguana


Yes, id have control of my beliefs. Difficult for children who are born into a certain system of thinking and are indoctrinated into something without being given a choice.


As for atheism: Its a belief-system. Ive had the debate many times here and people will deny it, but its a belief-system. I could count HUNDREDS of beliefs in the Richard Dawkins book.

Some are right lest go back to the original question.
I think that a conspiracy exists and my proof of it is inscribed in all the history books.
The proof I am talking about is war. War as been described by scholars as a universal activity related to continued existence. But this is a mistake when human are concerned.
As we develop we rise in intelligence, we could presume that our motive will be just more complicated then some animal. Then no, intelligence is self breeding sophisticated and continuous process for perfection in being aware.
There is a paradox about why we fight…my only explanation will be that an external force is pushing us to fight, therefore we will never get to fulfill the process of perfection of awareness.

Kacou

reply to post by Skyfloating

Skyfloating, that is a good summation of the age-old and ongoing conflict in spiritual values.

The vast majority have always fallen into the religious or atheistic camp. Both camps have agendas that are spiritually counterproductive.

Progress or spiritual evolution is typically achieved on an individual basis, not collectively.

Originally posted by forestlady
...I don't think aetheism = materialism, as your first post implies.
And some atheists meditate, while some atheists also engage in personal development and spirituality. Think Buddhists, for one.

It is true that Buddhists don't embrace the Judeo-Christian concept of an infinite God. However, they, along with many others, believe in a Higher Power which governs The Law of Karma (causality).

To have a belief in a Higher Power that judges our actions, thoughts, and intentions, is in essence a variation of a belief in God, as they both imply personal accountability

In Light of this (pun intended), Buddhists are not atheistic and yes, atheism does equate to materialism. Those who don't believe in an infinite God Consciousness watching over them but who do strive to live by The Golden Rule and believe in the Law of Karma, are technically not atheists.

Hey, I don't believe in the Judeo-Christian god or any other god from traditional religions either, but can hardly be considered an atheist.

Originally posted by forestlady
Spirituality and religion are 2 different things; one may or may not walk a spiritual path through any religion OR atheism.

It is harder to be spiritual than to be religious, and there are many religious people, most in fact, who are not spiritually principled.

Better then to befriend a spiritual person than a religious one.

reply to post by Paul_Richard


Thanks for making that point.

Ive sometimes heard atheists say "We are all born atheists".

This I find somewhat offensive.

The mere word atheISM reveals that its yet another belief-system pulled over the eyes of the infinite. We are not born atheists, we are born without any -ism.

Not to mention that atheism teaches no practical techniques in perception, concentration or emotional betterment...which spirituality of all sorts usually do.

reply to post by kacou



I would guess that war/fight comes from thinking that if you believe one thing, others must be wrong. Most spiritual teachings tell us that you can believe one thing and someone else can believe something else...and they are both true...different levels of truth...

and this is totally at odds with religion AND current science who both over-use words such as "truth" and "fact" on a consistent basis.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Thanks for making that point.

You're welcome.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Ive sometimes heard atheists say "We are all born atheists".

This I find somewhat offensive.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
The mere word atheISM reveals that its yet another belief-system pulled over the eyes of the infinite. We are not born atheists, we are born without any -ism.

What really drives them nuts is when you offer them the following illumination based solely on logic:

All beliefs that cannot be proven constitute a RELIGION. Since it cannot be proven that the Universe sprang completely out of chance, without any help from a rarefied being of God Consciousness (in utilizing The Light), then the beliefs promoted in atheism also constitute a RELIGION.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Not to mention that atheism teaches no practical techniques in perception, concentration or emotional betterment...which spirituality of all sorts usually do.

That's correct, as atheism is usually a refuge for those who are indifferent to spiritual improvement. (Existentialists being the exception to the rule.) After all, if there is no infinite God or infinite yet nonliving Higher Power that judges our spirituality and accountability, then why should one bother to strive to improve oneself in the first place?

However, Near Death Experience research points to no one ever truly getting away with anything. It just appears that many evil people do on This Side because those in the flesh do not witness what happens to evil people after they cross over to the Other Side.

reply to post by Paul_Richard


Yes. I find myself having a difficult time discussing with someone i agree with.


In any case, religion, atheism and materialism have given me nothing than mediocrity while the various spiritual schooling I have had, have given me adventure, ecstasy, fun pure skill.


[edit on 12-12-2007 by Skyfloating]

first off, great OP.
I do not believe there is a conspiracy to suppress spirituality. I do however believe, there is a fierce debate about the existence of a spirit self. some will say these strange experiences are a result of our inner spirit. others will say these experiences are a result of epiphenomenon of the brain chemicals.

these two very different boats of people engage in debate to try and prove their conclusions. as a result, many people are swayed to one side or the other. it appears as if one side is trying to pick apart the other I agree. but, I think it is more or less a competitive match on an academic level. at least as far as established institutions are concerned.

second point, or rather question.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Yes, id have control of my beliefs. Difficult for children who are born into a certain system of thinking and are indoctrinated into something without being given a choice.

how would you then, in your opinion, raise a child of your own form say 0 to 10? would you not seek to teach, as a father/mother would, all of the little bits of understanding you have discovered?

Originally posted by JSR
first off, great OP.
I do not believe there is a conspiracy to suppress spirituality. I do however believe, there is a fierce debate about the existence of a spirit self. some will say these strange experiences are a result of our inner spirit. others will say these experiences are a result of epiphenomenon of the brain chemicals.

these two very different boats of people engage in debate to try and prove their conclusions. as a result, many people are swayed to one side or the other. it appears as if one side is trying to pick apart the other I agree. but, I think it is more or less a competitive match on an academic level. at least as far as established institutions are concerned.

Excellent post as it highlights an entirely different debate than the tired old "atheist vs. christian" nonsense.

Of course Ive had this debate with a lot of people before and as you might have figured I am on the "spirit self" side. Why?

Well: First I choose to think about sex, and THEN I feel the chemical reaction.
That (for me), means that the non-physical aspect of myself created the chemistry rather than the chemistry creating something.

how would you then, in your opinion, raise a child of your own form say 0 to 10? would you not seek to teach, as a father/mother would, all of the little bits of understanding you have discovered?

Sure. Anybody would teach them the basics. But would I personally say "There is a God" (religion) or "There is no God" (atheism) to a child? No. I wouldnt teach a child anything I am not CERTAIN of. I am certain of the fact that I know how to swim, so I would teach my child how to swim.

And if the child asks me what it all means? Id say: "Beats me"

Wouldnt you agree though?

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Well: First I choose to think about sex, and THEN I feel the chemical reaction.
That (for me), means that the non-physical aspect of myself created the chemistry rather than the chemistry creating something.

I agree with this. I am on the side of spirit self as well. and I also agree that thought, or intention, manifests into the physical. thus giving the individual the ablility to truly create his/her reality.

where I get stuck at is.....where does thought originate? sure it arises form the firing of synapses in the brain, but from where does original thought originate? are we all somehow connected at some level as one, no separateness? or, are we at our most basic level still, individual?

your thoughts?

And if the child asks me what it all means? Id say: "Beats me"

Wouldnt you agree though?

.....yes, I would have to agree.

[edit on 12-12-2007 by JSR]

reply to post by Skyfloating


This is something most people simply do not understand. Most people think that there are two sides: science vs religion. Not so. The religious and scientific/atheist communities are constantly labeling things that are not currently known as blasphemy or fantasy.

Time and again, the scientific community swears something cannot possibly exist, only to be proven wrong again. Whether it's the case of the mountain gorilla and giant squid, or the interconnection of all things, and causality, to them, nothing is true unless they can cut it up on a table, or examine it under a microscope. As advanced as science is, it's still in it's infancy towards true spirituality, and will continue to remain as such. They make great discoveries which turn out to be things the spiritual world has known from the dawn of man, and yet, they will claim it as their own, cause now it's stood the test of the scientific method. Yet, how many scientific methods, and theories have existed in the past, and were later proven to be absurb? Simply because what you see is state of the art now, doesn't mean it's correct.

When people go looking for answers outside of themselves, they can only find what others want them to believe. Just because someone is in a clerical hierarchy does not make them a spiritual authority. It does, however, give them authority to teach a specific interpretation of a text. Yet, what makes these people more capable of interpretation than you? Ah, divine insight, yes. They are divinely inspired. Of course, that is what someone who simply wanted to control you would say as well.

You see, both the scientific and religious communities profit from controlling the population. Isn't that what man naturally seems to strive for, power over one another?

These things, in fact, all evil derives from the concept of lack. The idea that we lack something and need to go elsewhere for it. For a thief, lack of money or property. For a rapist, lack of sexual pleasure. For a killer, lack of excitement, or challenge. For a religious leader, lack of followers. For a crusader, lack of favor in God's eyes. For an atheist, lack of proof.

There is no destructive habit that mankind has that is not motivated by lack. Laziness is motivated by lack of enthusiasm, lack of courage, lack of resources, etc. Anger is motivated by lack of control over others. Sadness is motivated by lack of someone or something.

When life is motivated by lack, we have to look externally for what we dont have, and yet, we so rarely are satisfied by what we find.

Now, the powers that be fill our world with lack. Why? Because if we don't buy their products, believe their doctrines, or obey their laws, they do not control us. They feel they lack control, power, or influence, so by manipulating the masses, they seem to be achieving what they desire. Yet, they are never happy with it, and always want more.

However, when we look internally for what we want, we may find the answers that we seek. When our actions are motivated by the belief in abundance, we act powerfully. When people behaive in such a way, they are successful. The most successful people have areas in their lives that radiate with abundance. Not every rich man starts out rich. There's a process. Not every champion was born and lived with dominance like an Achilles figure. The weak very often, become strong.

When we base our decisions on internal matters, we are more aligned with our true nature. Right now I'm sitting on a chair. But I can be very comfortable outside in the rain, laying across a fallen tree, or sitting on a rock. I can appreciate what I have, and get the most out of the experience.

A person with a belief in abundance does not do many things simply for his or her own betterment. Rather, much of what they do benefits others just as much as themselves, yet, they still achieve what the lack motivated achieve.

If you feel you are miserable most of the time, if you have more than two bad or mediocre days a week, what is wrong with you? This is your life, yet you spend it in misery, why? Because, you think you lack. You believe you need this money, you need to get ahead of the bills, you need to buy this entertainment center, or that car. Yet, no matter what you surround yourself with, you are never happy for more than a moment.

But those in power, on both poles, atheist, or religious, they don't want to hear it. It's all bs and new age hippie lies. But the things I am talking about are known, and have been taught and written about for thousands of years before science, or religion even became a notion. Back when we were more attuned to nature, we could appreciate life, and we moved in harmony with it, giving back when we could. We all have our place in life, and when we play our roles well, our lives explode with abundance and joy. But when we require a certain environment t be happy, and certain people, and certain food, then, we are not living lives, we are slaves to comfort, and slaves to lack.

There are many people who say "Modern is superior. I would rather sit in my nice warm house, in my nice comfy bed, than live in a gave with a fire." Yet, these same people cannot even be happy with their comfy bed and warm house. I can enjoy them immensely, but I can also enjoy a cave. My pleasure comes from a world that science doesn't teach about. The world of the spirit. I enjoy it now. I don't wait to be happy until I'm dead.

But many of us have been raised to believe we need this, or that. We were taught what's true, and what isn't, by people who were programmed with the same ideas you're bein programmed with. But see where it got them? Nowhere. They're not happy or satisfied, so why should you be following the same road? Einstein himself said doing the same thing and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
The majority still thinks it can uphold these two sides as the "main sides" without factoring in true spirituality. Keep the sheep focussed on those two so that, during a lifetime, they never even begin to discover their true potential.

That's the root of the matter, the way I see it. The traditional adage of 'divide and conquer' is a true one.

What better way to conquer OURSELVES, as the human race, than to DIVIDE ourselves?

We forget that every coin has two sides but remains ONE unit of VALUE. We may 'cast lots' for either 'heads' or 'tails' but the probability remains, without exception, a strict '1 out of 2' ratio! I guess what I'm trying to say is that, in the end, none of it will matter because I do believe there will be, inevitably, a unifying agent which will do the job which we find ourselves unable to understand the necessity of, much less actually accomplish.

Vai Erchomai Kurios Ieosus! ♥

reply to post by TheGreySwordsman


An amazing explanation. Thank you for your post.

I've long said that people wouldn't know the truth if it came up and bit them on the ass. What is the truth? The Holy Spirit.

When it presents itself to you - you move on past "Faith 101."

Faith is a state of mind - the Holy Spirit is as real as real gets. It is best described as a vibration or a trembling.

It is the ultimate disclosure and you all have Christ to thank for that.