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Were clothes behind attack on teenager? Hijab

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posted on Dec, 12 2007 @ 01:12 PM
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reply to post by Rasobasi420
 


it does happen....parents killing their kids i mean.
i was in jail once(don't ask) and there was a guy in there that killed both of his toddlers. the reason according to him was cause when his father died, the wife was not 'there for him' and he wanted her to feel what he felt.

crazy stuff.




posted on Dec, 12 2007 @ 01:15 PM
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reply to post by blueorder
 


in about a dozen simmiler topic to do with these sort of murders
look for the honour killing topic should give you a insight to what i think,

once you start reading simmiler topics
you tend to always give the same response and it gets boring,

and franky i dont take a hoot.
my org post was because the topic starter didnt even bother with his response just one line and thats all,


and Kacen sue me
i ignored 2 people who sing the same line in every topic.

and dont care if its unnerving for you, honestly some topics i dont even like replying to you as your hard to figure out, you hate muslims and christians but defend a faith that also puts you down to hell aswell.


[edit on 12-12-2007 by bodrul]



posted on Dec, 12 2007 @ 01:20 PM
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just wanted to add this isnt an Islamic trend as its also commited by sihks and so on.
like my example the honour killing topic
where the poster didnt even read his own source but decided its a islamic thing when the father was sihk and his daughter dishounderd him.

Honour killing is not bound by Faith
and people need to remember it happens in diffrent faith socities,



posted on Dec, 12 2007 @ 03:54 PM
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reply to post by bodrul
 


In countries where Islam is practiced they are callesd "Honor Killings".

In India they are called "Dowry Deaths", where more than 5,000 brides die annually because their dowries are considered insufficient, according to the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF).

The practice was actually condoned under the rule of the fundamentalist Taliban government in Afghanistan.

According to Widney Brown, advocacy director for Human Rights Watch.


The practice, she said, "goes across cultures and across religions."


While the Koran does not specifically advocate or sanctions honor killings, it nurtures cultural view of women as property with no rights of their own.
This is deeply rooted in Islamic culture, Tahira Shahid Khan, a professor specializing in women's issues at the Aga Khan University in Pakistan, wrote in Chained to Custom, a review of honor killings published in 1999.



"Women are considered the property of the males in their family irrespective of their class, ethnic, or religious group. The owner of the property has the right to decide its fate. The concept of ownership has turned women into a commodity which can be exchanged, bought and sold."


Western sensibilities cannot fathom or begin to understand the twisted family dynamics that result is such barbarity.

Lest we assume that this only happens in backward uneducated tribes, we should consider what happens in the more modern nation of Jordan.


Women accused by family members of bringing dishonor to their families are rarely given the opportunity to prove their innocence. In many countries where the practice is condoned or at least ignored, there are few shelters and very little legal protection.

"In Jordan, if a woman is afraid that her family wants to kill her, she can check herself into the local prison, but she can't check herself out, and the only person who can get her out is a male relative, who is frequently the person who poses the threat," said Brown.

"That this is their idea of how to protect women," Brown said, "is mind boggling."


So it all seems based on cultures that view women as property without the sme rights as men. I guess as long as the world continues to tolerates such cultures with eyes gleeming with Muliculturalsim, the problem will continue.

Compliments of:
/2mk82n



posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 12:51 AM
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Originally posted by bodrul
just wanted to add this isnt an Islamic trend as its also commited by sihks and so on.
like my example the honour killing topic
where the poster didnt even read his own source but decided its a islamic thing when the father was sihk and his daughter dishounderd him.

Honour killing is not bound by Faith
and people need to remember it happens in diffrent faith socities,


But it needs to stop. I heard in the news a lady from some sort of Muslim Association located in Canada as she was being interviewed for this story, she was imploring and challenging the religious leaders for Muslims around Canada to denounce this killing and to try to bring change to that culture.

I know your saying that this individual was not a Muslim, Its being reported different in the news though.

This girls death is a tragedy, an avoidable one, their is an bond between culture and religion, religion has an strong influence in the culture of many countries and communities around the world.

Another point I want to make is that I think the more exposure this cases get, the more pressure is going to bring to those in position to make change to do something about it. And yes I'm talking about Islam, and I know Christian has done terrible thing in the past, but they overcame and I believe Islam as a religion can overcome its faults.

That's why I'm glad all these cases are getting the publicity that they getting. Some of you might think that the MEDIA has an ulterior motive of demonize Islam, and you might be right, but the fact that matter is that if the result of the demonizing attempt is succeeding in bring about some changes for the better in the culture and religion aspect of Islam, I will welcome that.



posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 05:08 AM
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Tests revealed she was strangled....

edition.cnn.com...



posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 05:10 AM
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www.ctv.ca...

Very sad.......



posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 05:20 AM
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Originally posted by bodrul
just wanted to add this isnt an Islamic trend as its also commited by sihks and so on.
like my example the honour killing topic
where the poster didnt even read his own source but decided its a islamic thing when the father was sihk and his daughter dishounderd him.

Honour killing is not bound by Faith
and people need to remember it happens in diffrent faith socities,



There are obviously no absoloutes and even athiests can kill their daughter, but it is more prevalent amongst those of an Islamic faith than any other- to deny it is to facilitate more deaths in the future



posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 05:22 AM
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reply to post by Bunch
 


the problem is whether ISlam can "get up to speed" the way Christianity did- 500 years ago Switzerland under Calvinism had the death penalty for adulterers. Such a penalty exists in many islamic states today (that is but one example)

What is a pain in the arse is due to mass migration some people expect the host nations to timewarp several hundred years ago to cope with newcomers (the death for adulterer example being an extreme one, but Im talking about general "CULTURAL" as they are termed differences)



posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 05:30 AM
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Originally posted by blueorder
There are obviously no absoloutes and even athiests can kill their daughter, but it is more prevalent amongst those of an Islamic faith than any other- to deny it is to facilitate more deaths in the future


Is that a fact or is it your opinion? You have any numbers to back that claim, or are you simply making up claims based on your own prejudices?



posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 05:54 AM
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Originally posted by Beachcoma
There are obviously no absoloutes and even athiests can kill their daughter, but it is more prevalent amongst those of an Islamic faith than any other- to deny it is to facilitate more deaths in the future

Is that a fact or is it your opinion? You have any numbers to back that claim, or are you simply making up claims based on your own prejudices?


Spare me your meaningless "prejudice" stuff there, I know the type that throws it, debate surpressors, well done.

I have already stated there are no absoloutes and any "family" can kill a woman (and do) be they athiest, muslim, jew, christian, whatever.

www.spiegel.de...

en.wikipedia.org...

"Countries where the law is interpreted to allow men to kill female relatives in a premeditated effort as well as for crimes of passions, in flagrante delicto in the act of committing adultery, include Jordan, Syria, Morroco, Haiti"

"Countries where honor killing is not legal but is frequently in practice include: Turkey, Iraqi Kurdistan, Pakistan"

Mainly (though not exclusively) Muslim countries


In the UK, if you can weasel specific stats out of the police you will find most honour killings attributed to muslim families ( I can source you several recent BBC links to cases).

I have stated that it is not exclusively muslim but it is more prevalent amongst muslims families- if that strikes you as prejudiced, I could not give a shiny sh ite, as I am more concerned about the deaths of women than people's misplaced sensibilities





[edit on 13-12-2007 by blueorder]



posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 06:21 AM
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reply to post by blueorder
 


Suppressing debate? Please. I was merely asking you to back your claims up. If you haven't noticed, that's how it's done here on ATS. If you want examples of debate suppression attempts, it would be this post and this post, which are clearly attempts at derailment.


At any rate, congratulations on being able to back up your words. This round goes to you. Star for you.

Edit: BBcode

[edit on 13-12-2007 by Beachcoma]



posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 08:13 AM
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Let's clarify a few things here, as I see the usual bigoted crowd is out in force. I can guess who'll post on a thread like this without even looking.... Centurion et al...

Firstly, the concept of Hijab applies to both men and women, as per the Koran. Unfortunately, men being men, they apply this law only to the women and tend to wear what they like.

The different style of dress that women wear varies wildly from country to country, this is the cultural aspect and they existed long before the rise of Islam. A simple glance at other regions and religions shows quite a uniform way that women were treated, ie; as property, owned by the men. Any of you Islam-bashing Christians actually read the Bible? If you have, then your a hypocrite, if not, then I guess your just dense.

You also have to bear in mind that only recently have we, in the west, decided that women are equal. 100 years ago, this was not the case. Women were even advised against using telephones for more than 5 mins as they might not be able to cope with talking to a detached voice and have a mental break down (actual advice given at the time!).

Even 50-60 years ago, in many western societies, it was considered rude (or was considered sophisticated to wear one) to be outside without your head covered, as in a hat for example. This same tradition stems from the same belief systems thousands of years back.

Lastly, I find it quite stupid of people here to claim that "Honour Killings" occur mostly in Islam. Of course they do! It is primarily a concept that comes from the same region that Islam occupies. However, one could also argue that Excommunications only occur in Catholic circles, as it is a Catholic idea.

In order for your anti-Islamic diatribes to hold water, you'd need to show that familial killing of women occurs mostly in Islamic families and no where else, however, we all know that despite what background your from, that murders occur across the board.

Plenty of white, christian men will kill their wives and kids after an affair, or break up. One could argue this is also a form of honour killing.

If we could get the stats for "crimes of passion", you'd probably see that Islamic families are no more pre-disposed to kill off their "dishonourable" kids than anyone else.



posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 09:06 AM
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I don't see the followers of this religion as sane people. the daughter wouldnt wear a scarf so he was justified in killing her, this isn't the only incidence in their stupidy, what about the woman who was gang raped because her little 5 year old brother held hands with a little girl. village elders actually got together to vote on their actions. also watched the news about a british teacher who decided to call a teddy bear muhammad. this started a huge uproar, there were actually riots and protests on the streets, many muslim calling for her death. I also never knew why they call this a peaceful religion when its very foundation was founded on violence. Mohammad himself led many battles and he was a pedaphile, his youngest wife was 9... I really dont see the beauty in this religion or its followers...



posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 09:55 AM
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reply to post by stumason
 


You hit a great point, western society used to have problems when it came to womens right because of the culture that dominated the time you refer. The catholic institutions and protestant imposed many restriction on women using the bible to justify why women had to act a certain way. What happen? IT CHANGED!, and thats why I want to see happening on Islam too.

People that dont want to see that Islam to a certain degree breads a culture of violence and abuse just want to deflect the attention that is the core of the issue.

Just imagine the ordeal that the Catholic Church went trough with the priest abusing kids. We could have sit here saying :" Nah child abuse happens everywhere, the Vatican is not at fault", and although every priest that committed a crime did so on their own it is clear that the Vatican as an institution was part of the problem.

I dont have a problem with Islam as a religion, my problem is with its Institutions,Imams, those who still think that women dont deserve no right, those who preach about killing infidels, those who preach that Jews need to be exterminated, those who preach that if you kill innocent people you get 72 virgins and those who preach that if a member of your family do something that is wrong to what they preach deserve killing in honor of the faith.

Religion can be used for wonderful and beautyful things, and also for atrocities, and it has been used for both troughout human history, some religion have overcame and some still in the work, but if we turn a blind eye to this situation is just bound to keep happening.

I recently open a thread about the silence of the moderates, I got flack from every angle because here on ATS is you call Islam on something you apparently are deem to get lambasted and slander, I think some people here need to discuss this issue with more of an open mind and with less emotion and passion.



posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 09:58 AM
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Originally posted by readitfirst
I don't see the followers of this religion as sane people.


I don't see followers of ANY religion as sane people, but there you go.



Originally posted by readitfirst
the daughter wouldnt wear a scarf so he was justified in killing her, this isn't the only incidence in their stupidy, what about the woman who was gang raped because her little 5 year old brother held hands with a little girl. village elders actually got together to vote on their actions.


Care to provide a linky? Not heard this one.

Besides, what you described there is tribal/primitive/uneducated mentality, not specific to any one religion. In African tribes, you could be outcast or viciously punished for seemingly innocuous things too. In 16th century America, Christian women would be burnt at the stake or drowned because their neighbour called them a witch. Apparently, if you didn't drown, you were a witch... Go figure...

My point is, stupid people do stupid things. These tribal types are not exactly well educated, or even educated. It isn't specific to one religion just because you say so. Stop being a bigot.


Originally posted by readitfirst
also watched the news about a british teacher who decided to call a teddy bear muhammad. this started a huge uproar, there were actually riots and protests on the streets, many muslim calling for her death.


Again, uneducated people being told what to do for the premise of some political capital by the more educated Elites. Also, it would appear your not up too speed on the story, as it wasn't her who named the bear Mohammed. That whole spat was not about a bear, but rather about ripping a stripe of the UK.


Originally posted by readitfirst
I also never knew why they call this a peaceful religion when its very foundation was founded on violence. Mohammad himself led many battles and he was a pedaphile, his youngest wife was 9... I really dont see the beauty in this religion or its followers...


Ah yes, the same old line. Have you read the Bible. The old testament especially. God himself would regularly take part in Genocide, infanticide, promote human sacrifice, was an utter bastard to those he created and supposedly loved.

Honestly.

You can't take the moral high ground based on what the other religion says, as I bet my bottom dollar (not that it's worth much these day's) that ANY religion's holy books are filled with violence, murder, rape and cruelty to chickens.



posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 10:12 AM
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Originally posted by Bunch
You hit a great point, western society used to have problems when it came to womens right because of the culture that dominated the time you refer. The catholic institutions and protestant imposed many restriction on women using the bible to justify why women had to act a certain way. What happen? IT CHANGED!, and thats why I want to see happening on Islam too.


And in many circles, Islam has moved on also. Depends on where you go. One could argue that the Catholic Church is still a backward behemoth. Look at the damage it does in Africa by preaching against condoms. Look at their attitude to women priests.


Originally posted by Bunch
People that dont want to see that Islam to a certain degree breads a culture of violence and abuse just want to deflect the attention that is the core of the issue.


A minority, a truly tiny one at that in comparison to the larger population believe in the violent methods.


Originally posted by Bunch
Just imagine the ordeal that the Catholic Church went trough with the priest abusing kids. We could have sit here saying :" Nah child abuse happens everywhere, the Vatican is not at fault", and although every priest that committed a crime did so on their own it is clear that the Vatican as an institution was part of the problem.


The Vatican still is a major thorn in the side of progress throughout the world. To pretend otherwise is to "deflect attention from the core issue"....


Originally posted by Bunch
I dont have a problem with Islam as a religion, my problem is with its Institutions,Imams, those who still think that women dont deserve no right,
those who preach about killing infidels, those who preach that Jews need to be exterminated, those who preach that if you kill innocent people you get 72 virgins and those who preach that if a member of your family do something that is wrong to what they preach deserve killing in honor of the faith.


All done by a minority........ Whats your point? You saying only Islam has idiots in? The Koran actually teaches against all those things....

I assume, of course, you've read up on the subject. After all, you seem so knowledgeable....


Originally posted by Bunch
Religion can be used for wonderful and beautyful things, and also for atrocities, and it has been used for both troughout human history, some religion have overcame and some still in the work, but if we turn a blind eye to this situation is just bound to keep happening.


Religion is used for one thing only, control. If I had my way, all religion would be banned.

Honestly, a bunch of stories made up thousands of years ago, by people so different from us and we're expected to still think the teachings of illiterate goat herders is relevant? Is crap.


Originally posted by Bunch
I recently open a thread about the silence of the moderates, I got flack from every angle because here on ATS is you call Islam on something you apparently are deem to get lambasted and slander, I think some people here need to discuss this issue with more of an open mind and with less emotion and passion.



If you think you got a hard time then, open one criticising Christianity, or, god forbid, call the creationists wrong...

You'll know what flack is then, chum. You haven't even encountered flack on ATS until you go against Jeebus Lovers.



posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 10:34 AM
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reply to post by stumason
 


Why is it then that this tiny minority is able to cause so much damage?
They cause damage to their own and else. Where is the majority? What are they doing to try and sway this minority to give up their ways?

This minority is responsible for the killing of thousands innocent of people in many ways and for many reasons, thats my problem with this minority. And you can not sit there and tell me that their faith somehow dont interject with their actions.

You can sit there and "preach" all religions should be banned, the fact the matter is that many of us that practice faith are in the majority and we need to deal with the problems that affect our faith and Institutions. Is up to us to police ourselves.





[edit on 13-12-2007 by Bunch]



posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 10:52 AM
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Originally posted by Bunch
Why is it then that this tiny minority is able to cause so much damage?
They cause damage to their own and else. Where is the majority? What are they doing to try and sway this minority to give up their ways?


Pray tell, beyond the media driven hype and dismal excuses to invade oil rich countries, what damage have they actually done that is so far above any other group of idiotic toss-pots?

Besides, the mainstream majority DO speak out, but I do notice that is never covered in US news sources. Check other sources friend, you might be surprised.

After all, who got that silly teacher out of Jail, for example?


Originally posted by Bunch
This minority is responsible for the killing of thousands innocent of people in many ways and for many reasons, thats my problem with this minority. And you can not sit there and tell me that their faith somehow dont interject with their actions.


Not quite sure what you aiming at there. Islamic terrorism hasn't claimed any more lives than any other form. Christians have killed thousands in NI and in Africa, millions are killed over tribal differences, religion (like the LRA, which is supposedly Christian) or land.

Of course, the minority that perform these actions have a twisted form of their faith, but that shouldn't then be used the Characterise the faith itself.

Two different things.


Originally posted by Bunch
You can sit there and "preach" all religions should be banned, the fact the matter is that many of us that practice faith are in the minority and we need to deal with the problems that affect our faith and Institutions. Is up to us to police ourselves.


Those that practice faith are in the minority? I beg to differ. Globally, at least half the worlds population is religious, if not more.



posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 10:52 AM
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Originally posted by Bunch
I dont have a problem with Islam as a religion, my problem is with its Institutions,Imams, those who still think that women dont deserve no right, those who preach about killing infidels, those who preach that Jews need to be exterminated, those who preach that if you kill innocent people you get 72 virgins and those who preach that if a member of your family do something that is wrong to what they preach deserve killing in honor of the faith.


Odd. If you change a few of the particulars there, you could near apply that to most any religion, as there are extremists in all beliefs. Personally, I feel the "problem" lies more with the indivduals than the institutions themselves.



 



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