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New Freemason, having some doubts

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posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 10:41 AM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by kozmo
reply to post by Masonic Student
 


All of which has been made abundantly clear ad nauseum. However, each of you is failing to address my previous statements - also made ad nauseum, that the stated goals and objectives as stated by Masons regarding Masonry, can be achieved without the silly secretiveness and rituals. In continue to fail to see the point in all of that - but to each their own I suppose.



I can honestly say much of what I learned in Masonry to me would be meaningless without me having witnessed the ritual previously. I can further add that every time I see the degrees performed I take additional lessons or meanings from them. Perhaps if I had only perused them online or in a library I might have been able to eventually interpet some sort of understanding of them but at what benefit?

To use your Karate analogy, would you benefit by studying this martial art singely or in a Dojo? I can practice my forms and katas at home but I take the greatest benefit from them by excercising their lessons in a group enviornment. Would you not agree?


I agree with you completely. Masonry without the rituals would be meaningless, the teaching are made more effective by the degrees, lectures and catechisms. Masonry is a total package that if taken apart would be much less than the sum of it’s parts.

All I was stating is that masonry is not necessary to be a good man or to do good in the world. But it does make it easier. And that there are other avenues available to achieve the same ends (but you would not be a “Mason”).




posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 10:54 AM
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reply to post by kozmo
 




My beef comes not from being a member of a group. My beef comes from the secret nature of the group, the rituals and such.


Is there a specific reason why? I mean, we hold meetings in secret and we have secret hand shakes, but what do you honestly think goes on? I could understand not wanting to be a Mason because you don't like secrecy.. but to hate all Masons is ... I don't know .. sad..



To me, they seem absolutely pointless and juvenile. That is just MY opinion and perhaps you see such tradition differently which is fine.I guess that there seems to be a complete disconnect between the stated purpose of the organization and the actual practices as they are inconsistent with the stated goals.


This simply means Masonry is not for you.. if you have respect for tradition and you understand that its symbolic then you should be fine.

As for your last sentence that is just not true at all, and you not being a Mason I would not expect to know anyways.



Example: If I am attempting to be philanthropic and benefit mankind as a whole, why do I need to don a cloak, carry candles, chant, get paddled or whatever it is you guys do!?!? I understand and agree with your strength in numbers argument. It is evidenced by Goodwill, Salavation Army, Red Cross, Purple Heart Veterans etc.


Wow, talk about immature.... The only thing "Secret" is degree work .. its secretiveness is symbolic, the way it had to be done in the old days. We don't really have any secrets, everything is written in books .. but I assure you that not flaunting it to the public, or public displays of the ritual... keep it pure, less contaminated, and that it is not made into a spectacle.



If the stated goals and intentions of Masonry were accurate then wouldn't membership into one of those organizations better serve the realization of said goal? It would seem to me that all of those organizations are much better suited to helping you reach your stated goals and objectives, no???


different groups offer a variety of different outcomes. Masonry is far more prestigious for one, not to mention the nature of it being a fraternity offer something no other group can. Masonry does not loose any of its ability to do good just because our degrees are not flaunted to the world.. rather it makes it something more unique that members are more likely to give more to. There is no question that there are other ways to help people, but what you need to understand if just because you have insecurities.. not all men do.



I think you could agree that Masonry hardly shares that similarity.


Certainly it does NOT! .. No offense mate, but Masonry is a little more important then Karate Club or your Lacross team. Masonry has escaped, thank god, commercialization, realetively little with break off groups because of social say so. I know you will never understand.. the secrets of Masonry are not actual secrets, but out of respect and honor we would never hold a degree in public, even if everyone knew it anyways..



To me it all just seems so hokey.


Doesn't give you the right to bash our society? You may not like the methods we use to carry out our objective.. but I don't see how that can stop you from at least seeing that we are a good group, we benefit the community even if we hold degrees in private.



you are being disingenious regarding the stated goals and purpose of this organization as I have already demonstrated that there are organizations far better suited to achieve those stated goals and that the general practices and structure are counter-intuitive to reaching the stated goals.


Stated goals of Masonry? Make good men better. Help the community through charity.

Did you expect something else?



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 12:09 PM
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posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 12:31 PM
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"Neither. To share my personal perspective on Masonry as the OP has expressed doubt regarding his choice to join and the "RAH-RAH" responses of ATSers who happen to be Masons. Is there a T&C that prohibits a member from sharing a counter viewpoint? I singled out no one and shared only my personal opinions on the matter - no violation of T&Cs.

Perhasps we should have a forum where only the Masons can go and pat each on the back without having this type of pesky counter-point raised. Oh wait, they do have one - it's called The Lodge."

OK , Guys and Gals, have your bloody laugh! You have this idea that all Masons are a cabal of conspirators! This is really absurb!

We do not all actively go to Lodge , and many of us do not need to explain our Great Works to negative , small minded people like yourselves.
Are you raising monies for the indigent , or the children, or the others in need?

I do not need to become an apologist for your B.S. You hate us, and you are so bloody ignorant that you really do not even know why?

Oh, by the way, we are not all rich! Most of us are working class and some of us are even liberal! Suprise! We are a non-religious, non-political organization who enable any and all who apply who belive in an ultimate diety ( GOD ) and are free-born, lawful-aged and well recommended.

We Mason on here do not know as to where you are from: most of us would not give a #! Perhaps, some of you crawled out from under a rock. But we do not pelt you with it. Why not give some of your good frinds and neighbors a break and assume that many of us are always attempting to make this world , our world , a better place for us all.



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 12:37 PM
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posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 12:43 PM
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Never mind, it ain't worth it. Thumbs up to Umbrax for his quick response. That dude struck out faster than Barry Bonds before his morning dose!



[edit on 14-12-2007 by Masonic Light]



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 12:46 PM
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Originally posted by ~Axiom~

no matter how many times moderaters alter my post and make it so people cannot see what i think


Abide by the rules and your posts will not be deleted. Vulgarity and telling people to "go die" isn't acceptable.
Now stay on topic. If you have a complaint use the complain feature. Failure to abide by our terms and conditions may result in the removal of your posting privileges.



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 12:57 PM
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Five Warnings in less than 30 min? Is this a record???


If he has something to add I hope he will in a constructive mannor.

Added: Thanks for the quick resonce Umbrax.

[edit on 14-12-2007 by Masonic Student]

[edit on 14-12-2007 by Masonic Student]

(can't type right this afternoon)

[edit on 14-12-2007 by Masonic Student]



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 01:00 PM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light
Never mind, it ain't worth it. Thumbs up to Umbrax for his quick response. That dude struck out faster than Barry Bonds before his morning dose!



[edit on 14-12-2007 by Masonic Light]


Trolls will be trolls.
Anyway, let's get back to The Oak's topic... New Freemason, having some doubts.




posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 01:10 PM
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posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 01:11 PM
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tick.....tick....tick.....


Happy holidays to you too.

[edit on 14-12-2007 by Fitzgibbon]

Sorry Fitz, his tripe won't be read by anyone. And it was only 1 tick.


[edit on 14-12-2007 by intrepid]

Oh sure....wreck my holiday fun whydoancha?


[edit on 14-12-2007 by Fitzgibbon]



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 01:16 PM
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reply to post by kozmo
 


Tradition and ritual is the thing which makes masonry cohesive. Its value is that each candidate knows they are going through the same thing that men have done for hundreds of years. It is meant to impress upon him the solemn nature of the experience and the common bond that masons share. It is not necessary to do the ritual to do charity, but it makes the group more cohesive - where is the evil in that? Many groups participate in things that they do not have to do to reach their end goal.

In this sense it is no different than any other group. People who identify with groups do so because they share common experiences. It is neither good nor bad, it is simply a social device which ties people together. In fact, the academic literature has authors, including Robert Putnam, who suggest that social capital is actually a device which is inherently linked with positive societal concepts like economic development.

The charities that you mention do their own social bonding, but in different ways. The red cross has lots of informal events for its staff, and hands out lots of awards. This is no different in theory than the red cross doing ritual - the purpose is the same - to give cohesion to the group.

Your example of attending a university proves this point. A university is a group of people committed to learning. You cannot simply come in and sit in a class. There are restrictions on membership, you must apply to get in. You end up being identified for your entire life as an alumni of that institution. You participated in things in the university that are not necessary for the end goal of the university - to help you learn. Those clubs were a way of making the student body cohesive, and helped achieve the end goal. This is, again, fundamentally no different than masonry.

[edit on 14-12-2007 by LightinDarkness]



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 01:19 PM
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Dang, I missed the fun =O

Five stars for the mods. Whatever it was, it must have been bad to have the entire posts removed =O I now bring us back to our current topic about new freemasons and doubts in the fraternity. See the above post


[edit on 14-12-2007 by LightinDarkness]



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 01:22 PM
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IHATEATS, why do you have such a name if you're going to be on these boards? Also, I have alerted staff to your post, it is way out of touch with the T&Cs on this board.

I can safely say that I don't rememeber even one Mason at any time on ATS, being less than gentlemanly. To me, this speaks volume about the high standards they hold themselves to. The more posts and polite responses I see from Masons, the more impressed I become with Freemasonry. The Masons on ATS, it seems, are always being bashed, often in very unkind and demeaning ways. Yet, the Masons always respond with logic, reason and courtesy.
To those who think the Freemasons are evil, I think simply the fact that you see such a fine organization as evil, says much more about you than it does the Masons.
I love the Mason's ideals and the goal of spiritual betterment and enlightenment. Any spiritual path is richer if one has like-minded companions with which to trod that path. The Masons are one such group to walk a spiritual path with. If you don't like them, don't join. But for heaven's sakes, stop trashing up the website with your ridiculous, uninformed opinions, based on nothing. All you do is make your own selves look bad, IMO.

Kudos and thanks to all the Masons on ATS for telling us what Masonry is really about; and also for your patience and courtesy.



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 01:26 PM
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What in the world is with people today??

You know..

I can sometimes see where people who hate Masons come from. When I joined ATS I was all into the whole Masons control the world. Sometimes you need an open mind though, and with an open mind new possibilities. It is my personal belief that life is to short to store such outright bigoted hatred for an entire people, especially one as diverse as Masons.

The same hate and despise that our ancestors faced in 1700's society is STILL faced today, and that honestly is a sad testament not only to world society as a whole, but personal character as well.

All I can say is.. open you mind, step out of the box a little, and for crying out loud, just because it is on a wiki site or some nut cases rant site like Freemasonwatch.org, does NOT make it true.




posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 01:30 PM
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Reply to all Masons...

Let me clear here... I do NOT hate Masons - period! Earlier in this thread I indicated that my brother-in-law, his father and one of my best friends are all Masons and I love and respect each of them. I have spent a great deal of time talking with them about Masonry and it is simply my opinion that the whole of it is... well, hokey. That's all. It's nothing personal against any of you. To be clear, I can see than many of you are extremely intelligent, well-written, well-read men. I am certain that on any given night at the pub we could get on perfectly.

While in college, I was invited to join a Fraternity and passed due to it's very nature - everything was to be kept secret. Such a notion seemed both stupid and counter-productive. I personally elected to follow another path.

Someone questioned/commented on my participation in charity... Let me just say that I have spent the past 14 years donating my time cooking meals at a local shelter. I donate clothing and food to the local shelters regularly. I work the Coats for Kids charity every single year and my family adopts a family at Christmas time to ensure that that family has their needs provided for. I have engaged in countless other charitable acts and have raised my children to recognize that their primary goal in life should be fellowship. To question my personal mission or rather to incite the idea that because I frown upon Masonry that I cannot be charitable is preposterous!

I understand that you feel strongly about your "Craft" as evidenced by your posts. I will respect the path that you have chosen but you must also respect mine. We obviously will fail to reconcile our differences of opinion on this matter. So, instead let us simply celebrate the fellowship of mankind and all strive to be better people regardless the mechanism chosen to accomplish such a mission. Fair enough?



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 01:30 PM
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posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 01:33 PM
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Bear with us guys while we deal with this child.



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 01:47 PM
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reply to post by kozmo
 




Let me clear here... I do NOT hate Masons - period! Earlier in this thread I indicated that my brother-in-law, his father and one of my best friends are all Masons and I love and respect each of them.


I absolutely cannot believe you.. I have seen what you have written in threads before, and I have seen some of the beliefs you hold. The great thing about the internet, and ultimately the greatest evil, is that when you write something for the world to see you place your self spread out like a book, easily read, easily deciphered, and easily labeled.

You may like those men as men, but you have no respect what so ever for the organization to which they belong.



That's all. It's nothing personal against any of you. To be clear, I can see than many of you are extremely intelligent, well-written, well-read men. I am certain that on any given night at the pub we could get on perfectly.


If someone critized and outright insulted something that is a big part of your life everyday you would be defensive as well. And I have no doubt we could get along, until the conversation of Masonry came up. This is how it is taken personally.. you may have written things in the past that have been misconstrued, but I have read to many from you..



While in college, I was invited to join a Fraternity and passed due to it's very nature - everything was to be kept secret. Such a notion seemed both stupid and counter-productive. I personally elected to follow another path.


I find college fraternities to be idiotic as well, as with sororities.. Masonry is a fraternity, but not to much like college fraternities. At least I have never seen similarities except cheap ripoffs of Masonry and the concept of secret modes of communication.



Someone questioned/commented on my participation in charity... Let me just say that I have spent the past 14 years donating my time cooking meals at a local shelter. I donate clothing and food to the local shelters regularly. I work the Coats for Kids charity every single year and my family adopts a family at Christmas time to ensure that that family has their needs provided for.


Good for you! Everyone should be involved in charity of some kind.. but that is just your way of doing it.. other people have different ways of doing it. I could name a few charities my lodge sponsors, our biggest being the Masonic Home, Toys For Tots in partnership with the US Marine Corps. Also every year we donate more and more to the Ohio Special Olympics, and believe me it is a fact that with out state wide donations from Masons which total to the hundreds of thousands, disabled children would NOT have a special Olympics in Ohio.

But we have secret handshakes, its all hokey jokes and immature childish games. Right?




To question my personal mission or rather to incite the idea that because I frown upon Masonry that I cannot be charitable is preposterous!


No one has nor would say that because you are not a Mason you cannot give to charity.



I understand that you feel strongly about your "Craft" as evidenced by your posts. I will respect the path that you have chosen but you must also respect mine.


I respect anyones decision.. even those who don't like Masonry.. so long as you don't insult it, demean it, attack it in any way .. because that just entitles a retaliatory statement to absurd claims. My family doesn't like Masonry.. hell my mother freaks out if I wear a ring or pin on my suit in front of my grand mother. We still get along, but only because no one has (yet) insulted my membership or the organization its self.

Just takes a little self restraint to not make claims, typically through ignorant misguided "education", about Masonry.



We obviously will fail to reconcile our differences of opinion on this matter. So, instead let us simply celebrate the fellowship of mankind and all strive to be better people regardless the mechanism chosen to accomplish such a mission. Fair enough?


If you don't like Masonry because we hold degrees behind closed doors and don't make a spectacle out of it.. I can accept hat, albeit a little confused. Masonry is NOT for everyone, and no Masons expects it should be, or ever will be.. But when mistrust mixes with hate and vile comments are thrown out onto the net, well.. then no, we will never reconcile those differences.. I am not one to appease to ignorance.



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 02:18 PM
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