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New Freemason, having some doubts

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posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 02:53 PM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
You do realize these oaths are purely symbolic in nature. Numerous indivduals, over the course of centuries, have revealed the secrets of Freemasonry and lo and behold not one of them have had their throat cut across and so on and so forth.
[edit on 13-12-2007 by AugustusMasonicus]


You are now suggesting the oath doesn't mean anything, and if that is the case then why is it included? And if it doesn't mean anything, you are also suggesting that masons waste their time saying useless oaths that they don't value. The oath is there, and this is what the bible says about peoples words

Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

And presumably you have never attempted to change the wording of the oath that you regard as being meaningless!!!

It is wrong to claim that no mason has ever been killed for breaking his masonic oath.

Those passages of the bible I quoted are quite clear, I am sure if you read between the lines you can find where it says freemasons are permitted to make oaths of murder and suicide, but I couldn't find them in the bible!!!




posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 02:56 PM
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Originally posted by golddragnet
You are now suggesting the oath doesn't mean anything, and if that is the case then why is it included?


i must have missed that part. who said oaths didn't mean anything? They are symbolic. Does that mean they lose all meaning, no in fact it gives more meaning, in multiple ways. What is your bone to pick exactly? Rejected membership? Confusion? Bad mood?



posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 02:58 PM
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Originally posted by golddragnet
It is wrong to claim that no mason has ever been killed for breaking his masonic oath.


Example that hasn't been well-and-truly-and-repeatedly-debunked previously please!

That said, I assume that you've never sworn (either verbally or written) an oath in your life, right? Never signed a contract? For anything?

Just curious



posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 02:59 PM
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Originally posted by golddragnet

What is that supposed to mean.


It seems you do not recall your own statement, I will again quote it for you...



Originally posted by golddragnet
It must be that you are refering to the christians who wrote the bible



I thought I was abundantly clear but if you need clarification so be it. I pointed out the fact that your quote is incorrect. Christians did not write the Gospels of the Bible in which you so frequently and morosely quote Jesus Christ. You may feel it is semantics but if you personally take the Bible literally those passages can only be attributed to men who were indeed Jewish.


Why don't you clarify your position on the Bible, which is another subject,


As Masons we feel it is a guide for our lives.


but now that you have brought it up, are you saying the bible is nonsense, and if so then why do people, masons included, swear on it. You can't have it both ways, either you respect the bible or not.


I do not take its writings in a literal sense, however, I feel the moral and spiritual lessons contained within it to be of value in how I conduct my life.

As a Mason I could have sworn on any book of law that I chose; The Bible, Koran and the Torah to name a few more widely known. My obligations' strength is founded solely on the belief of Diety.


And that isn't the issue here, a nice sidestep. A christian gets his teachings from the bible.


People of other religous denonminations can take lessons from it as well, just as I have taken lessons from other great books of religion.


Avoiding the issues and deal with Constantine, ok, we both know Constantine was very far from being a Christian.


He was as far from Christian as you can be, someone who co-opted the religion for his own personal gains whilst a pagan. Furthermore, according to historical tradition he did not even allow himself to be baptised until on his death bed. This was the same person who organized the production of the Bible which was also to suit his own personal Empire-wide agenda.


But are you now discussing the hypocrisy of the Roman Catholic church, or the teachings of the bible?


The hypocisy of the Roman Catholic Church did indeed enter into my thoughts when typing that response.



posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 02:59 PM
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Originally posted by golddragnet


You are now suggesting the oath doesn't mean anything, and if that is the case then why is it included?


It would be more correct to say that the *penalty* is symbolic, not the oath (at least in the Grand Jurisdictions where the symbolic physical penalty is still included). Many Grand Jurisdictions, including the United Grand Lodge of England, no longer use the traditional symbolic penalties in their rituals.


It is wrong to claim that no mason has ever been killed for breaking his masonic oath.


Yes, it would be in error to make such a claim.



posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 03:04 PM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Why don't you clarify your position on the Bible, which is another subject,


As Masons we feel it is a guide for our lives.


heh, just to play on the other side of the fence.. this is a logical fallacy as well. Not ALL masons use just the bible as a guide. Personally, I use the bible for some insight, but far from a guide to anything other than how to understand western theology.



posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 03:06 PM
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I have a question. Do Boy Scouts take an oath(I was never one)? If so does that make them less Christian by doing so?



posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 03:10 PM
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reply to post by golddragnet
 


I must offer a correction, as Masonic Light pointed out it is the penalty that is symbolic and is indeed what I was trying to say. I take my oath very seriously even though I know that I will never have my body severed and so on and so forth. It would be riduclous to even imply that we hold our members to such penalties.

Do you honestly think there is some sort of Masonic punishment brigade standing in the shadows with knives brandished only biding their time until some unwitting brother breaks his oath?

Furthermore, not one of the oaths I have taken invloves suicide, where are you deriving that sentiment from?

[edit on 13-12-2007 by AugustusMasonicus]

[edit on 13-12-2007 by AugustusMasonicus]



posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 03:23 PM
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reply to post by intrepid
 


Intrepid, indeed they do.....

"On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight."

Apparently all those community-minded young men are on the path to spiritual and moral terpitude.



[edit on 13-12-2007 by AugustusMasonicus]

[edit on 13-12-2007 by AugustusMasonicus]



posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 05:08 PM
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Originally posted by intrepid
I have a question. Do Boy Scouts take an oath(I was never one)? If so does that make them less Christian by doing so?


Yes, no.. it was never called an oath, but it was an oath.

And from my memory, although I was initiated when I was 13 (young to get this) .. I was in the OA Order of the Arrow, and I honestly found that ritual to be even more complex and mystic then any Masonic ritual.

So I suppose Boy Scouts are evil.. and that the OA is an occult secret society since it is .. exclusive in a way.



I still have my sash somewhere, not to different then an apron, in that anywhere in uniform it should have been worn across the chest.

And.. like Masonry Boy Scouts are ridiculed by our society, talked down when the message it portraits and the lessons taught are long lasting tools to make men better.

My only regret in life honestly is that I wanted to rebel against my father and dropped out of Boy Scouts a few months before, at 13 I was to be a Eagle Scout. Stupid childish mistakes..


Hmm..

You also had to memorize "work" to be given to your Scout Master (worshipful Master).... in order to advance to the next rank, degree, perhaps there is more to this then at first glance...

There is something a conspiracy theorist could research.



posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 05:19 PM
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Originally posted by Rockpuck
You also had to memorize "work" to be given to your Scout Master (worshipful Master).... in order to advance to the next rank, degree, perhaps there is more to this then at first glance...

There is something a conspiracy theorist could research.


Rock, you might find this of some interest.......




Freemasonry's relationship with the Boy Scouts started with a Freemason named Daniel Carter Beard. Bro. Beard was made a Mason in Mariner's Lodge No. 67, New York City, NY, and later affiliated with Cornucopia Lodge 563, Flushing, NY. In the late 1800's he founded a male youth program called the "Society of the Sons of Daniel Boone." By 1905, the program had become "The Boy Pioneers." The man who would create the first "Boy Scouts," and be known as its founder, was Lord Robert Baden-Powell of Great Britain. Lord Baden-Powell, who was not a Mason, read of Beard's program and, based on his own military experience, developed what is known as the "Boy Scouts." In 1910, the Boy Scout program came to America when Bro. Beard merged his organization into the "Boy Scouts of America" and became its first National Commissioner.




Our current Grand Staff is heavily invloved in supporting the Boy Scouts and has several fund raisers and activities planned or in progress.



posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 05:25 PM
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aha! so they are evil!

i guess to be fair, the court system, and the military are both heavily influenced by masonry, so technically all the oaths mentioned thus far are directly related to masonry.

haha, i guess we're not helping our own argument so far.


[edit on 13-12-2007 by scientist]



posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 06:24 PM
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Originally posted by intrepid
reply to post by kozmo
 


Wanna bet?

From the T&C:

2) Behavior: You will not behave in an abusive, hateful and/or racist manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack anyone.

8) Right of Community Management This is a privately owned discussion board community. The Owners and senior moderator staff reserve the right to take action against any member who is deemed to be devoted purely to disruption.

Now, let's let the TOPIC continue.



I find it interesting that I get a warning for using the posters OWN LOGIC, which said that he isnt insulting anyone, he is just offering his own personal opinion. I did the same, and offered my own personal opinion. HOW IS IT that he does not get a warning since obviously my "personal" opinion is consideirng insulting, but his isnt?

If I were a tinfoil hater, I would begin decrying that this is a conspiracy against the masons. However, I'll chock it up to mods selectively reading for now.




posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 06:27 PM
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Originally posted by LightinDarkness
If I were a tinfoil hater, I would begin decrying that this is a conspiracy against the masons. However, I'll chock it up to mods selectively reading for now.



You can chock it up however you want. His was a general statement. You attacked another member, AFTER many attempts to get you to post properly. I've got to admit, I don't usual go down this road but I seriously doubt that you ARE a Mason. I've been doing this for years and you just don't sound like one.



posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 07:21 PM
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reply to post by intrepid
 


Thanks for the insult. Time to warn yourself. Perhaps you should read a tad bit more closely. You don't warn an anti-mason who continually insults. I point out that the anti-mason continually insults. Anti-mason says that he isn't insulting, just "expressing" his own opinion. I "express" my opinion. I get warned, anti-mason doesn't. Say it with me: double standard. Not that I care, I just find it very amusing.

I am not here to convince you that I am mason, you are free to believe whatever you want. Perhaps you should remind yourself that no one - even masons - can say "Gee, thanks for the insult" when it happens over and over again.

It's too bad you even pointed it out. You might want to go back and edit your own posts before exercising corruption like this.


Originally posted by intrepid
reply to post by kozmo
 

Which has what to do with the topic? A canned response to insult and bait fellow members?


[edit on 13-12-2007 by LightinDarkness]



posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 07:24 PM
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reply to post by LightinDarkness
 


OK, you've had your say. Can we get back to the topic now?



posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 07:26 PM
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THAT'S IT. I just saw your edit. When you can post accordingly you will be allowed to do so. I recommend that you listen to counsel and can the attitude.

NOW, to the topic.



posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 07:30 PM
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Originally posted by LightinDarkness
I get warned, anti-mason doesn't. Say it with me: double standard.

[edit on 13-12-2007 by LightinDarkness]


anti-mason got banned by this moderator a few days ago. remember?

ease up. your point is here for all to read. And thousands have read it. ease up.



posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 07:43 PM
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I don't understand why you have to join a secret society in order to help your fellow man or just helping your community. If you have ever heard about Michael Tsarion then you already know about those on the top totem pole.

www.taroscopes.com...



posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 08:21 PM
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Originally posted by 123143
I don't understand the purpose of your organization.


I suspected as much, from reading your posts.

This is largely why I haven't taken your repetitive accusations of Masonic "childishness" very seriously, nor personally.


Originally posted by 123143 People always criticize what they don't understand.


"People" should grow up a bit then, and maybe take steps to try and live their lives with less xenophobia and fearfulness, and more compassion and understanding.

What you've just described generally forms the roots of other forms of bigotry, like racism. Fear of the dark, anyone? Thunder and lightning?

This kind of fear is certainly childish.

I propose to you that it is more childish to fear and criticise that which one doesn't understand, than it is to belong to a fraternity dedicated to personal development, albeit with some peculiar trappings.






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