New Freemason, having some doubts

Originally posted by golddragnet
It must be that you are refering to the christians who wrote the bible

Would this be the same Christian named Constantine? A truly stellar example of Christian piety and tolerance who assmebled the writings of some of Jesus' Jewish apostles while omiting those of others.


Edit to add: I should say 'alleged' writings as none has be able to prove when and who wrote the gospels.

[edit on 13-12-2007 by AugustusMasonicus]

Originally posted by golddragnet
Do you know what the Ten Commandments are? Did you know that the Masonic obligations break TWO of those commandments at least? The Lord God commands that we shall not kill (Exodus 20:13). Yet in their oaths, Masons swear murder and suicide for the oath-taker, if the oaths are broken!!!—both of which are breaking the 6th commandment. PLUS, they are asking God in heaven to come down and witness a solemn oath where they are consenting to break one of His commandments. If that isn’t taking the name of the Lord in vain, what is the meaning of the word???

You do realize these oaths are purely symbolic in nature. Numerous indivduals, over the course of centuries, have revealed the secrets of Freemasonry and lo and behold not one of them have had their throat cut across and so on and so forth.

I have no wish to spend much time talking about freemasonry, as I think the people who ascribe to it are brainwashed and much of their posts on this website is such see-through nonsense and propaganda.

A wonderfully erroneous and rather unintellectual statement. Read your history, Freemasons were the origianal and progressive Freethinkers of their times. While others were wallowing under the yoke of Monarchy they promoted and propogated the breaking of the shackles of such oppression. Without Freemasonry and the actions by many of the Brethern, along with others who are non-Masons, sacrificed so that this great nation would be here for you to proclaim your own personal beliefs.

You have made your own decisions to be a mason of your own freewill, well try to enjoy it if thats what you want, but don't have the wool pulled over your eyes that someone can be a christian and a mason at the same time.

They can not be for you because of your interpetation of the Bible. Whose is to say that your perception of it is the only way someone may approach it?

[edit on 13-12-2007 by AugustusMasonicus]

Originally posted by golddragnet
Just completely ignore the reply I gave him earlier

I ignored it not only because it was way off-topic, but also because, quite frankly, it was childish, silly, immature, and not worthy of serious response.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by golddragnet
Just completely ignore the reply I gave him earlier

I ignored it not only because it was way off-topic, but also because, quite frankly, it was childish, silly, immature, and not worthy of serious response.

you ignored it because its not comfortable for you to reply, because there is no suitable answer to it, just a side-step of it.
It was very much central to the topic of the lie that a christian can be a mason at the same time.

And you are showing yourself to be very childish, I highlighted legitimate reasons why a christian can't be a mason, and I used references from the bible. You, on the other hand have totally avoided the points presented and instead you have resorted to very lame junior-high insults. Such replies shows it is YOU who is playing the troll. Did they teach you that in your lodge! Avoid answers and resort to name-calling!!! Is that a reflection of the "higher education" you have received from the masons? try to conduct yourself with a little more dignity. This site is supposed to discourage trolling and name-calling, for which you have reduced yourself twice already in this thread.

[edit on 13-12-2007 by golddragnet]

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by golddragnet
It must be that you are refering to the christians who wrote the bible

Would this be the same Christian named Constantine? A truly stellar example of Christian piety and tolerance who assmebled the writings of some of Jesus' Jewish apostles while omiting those of others.


Edit to add: I should say 'alleged' writings as none has be able to prove when and who wrote the gospels.

[edit on 13-12-2007 by AugustusMasonicus]

What is that supposed to mean. Why don't you clarify your position on the Bible, which is another subject, but now that you have brought it up, are you saying the bible is nonsense, and if so then why do people, masons included, swear on it. You can't have it both ways, either you respect the bible or not. And that isn't the issue here, a nice sidestep. A christian gets his teachings from the bible.
Avoiding the issues and deal with Constantine, ok, we both know Constantine was very far from being a Christian. But are you now discussing the hypocrisy of the Roman Catholic church, or the teachings of the bible?

Originally posted by golddragnet


you ignored it because its not comfortable for you to reply, because there is no suitable answer to it, just a side-step of it.

Nope. To quote a great thinker (i.e., myself):

"I ignored it not only because it was way off-topic, but also because, quite frankly, it was childish, silly, immature, and not worthy of serious response."

Now...can get we back on topic?

reply to post by LightinDarkness


What you perceive as insults are merely personal observations. Typically people who are insulted by another's personal observations are so insulted because they recognize some truth in the observation with which they cannot reconcile in their own mind.

If my personal observation insults you, so be it. That wasn't my intention. My intention was to share with anyone interested what my views are on secret societies et al.

I STILL find it pathetic that people cannot engage on this endeavor on their own. To me that is great weakness and demonstrates a profound lack of will. If, as stated, the true nature of such societies were to become better, stronger, better more philanthropic people then organizations like the Salvation Army would LOVE to have you and you would still accomplish your stated goals. The reality is that philanthropy and personal growth are at the bottom of the priority list for these people regardless of what they say.

I'm sorry in advance if the truth of my words are insulting.

Edited to add: Your fallacious non-sequiturs regarding churches or institutions of higher learning are laughable. The last I checked I was welcome to walk through the door at any time and share either in learning or worship sans secrets. The purpose of higher learning is education and churches worship - secret societies foster neither. In fact, both churches and learning institutions offer philanthropic opportunities and personal enrichment opportunities and dispense of both EQUALLY and without prejudiced. The very fact that your is a "Craft" makes it that much more laughable.

[edit on 13-12-2007 by kozmo]

reply to post by intrepid


Neither. To share my personal perspective on Masonry as the OP has expressed doubt regarding his choice to join and the "RAH-RAH" responses of ATSers who happen to be Masons. Is there a T&C that prohibits a member from sharing a counter viewpoint? I singled out no one and shared only my personal opinions on the matter - no violation of T&Cs.

Perhasps we should have a forum where only the Masons can go and pat each on the back without having this type of pesky counter-point raised. Oh wait, they do have one - it's called The Lodge.

Originally posted by kozmo

What you perceive as insults are merely personal observations. Typically people who are insulted by another's personal observations are so insulted because they recognize some truth in the observation with which they cannot reconcile in their own mind.

If my personal observation insults you, so be it. That wasn't my intention. My intention was to share with anyone interested what my views are on secret societies et al.

Let me demonstrate your absurdity:

You are an arrogant, pompous little whiner who is determined to blame your own problems on cabals of satanic masons which are nothing more than a figment of your imagination. You need to find meaning in life, so you do it by acting like your above everyone else. You are pathetic. You like to attack groups you know nothing about so you can feel better about yourself. You are a failure.

Now - kozmo - what you perceive as insults in the above are merely personal observations. If you feel insulted by my personal observations you are insulted because you recognize some truth in the observation which you cannot reconcile in your own mind. :down:

Originally posted by kozmoI STILL find it pathetic that people cannot engage on this endeavor on their own. To me that is great weakness and demonstrates a profound lack of will. If, as stated, the true nature of such societies were to become better, stronger, better more philanthropic people then organizations like the Salvation Army would LOVE to have you and you would still accomplish your stated goals. The reality is that philanthropy and personal growth are at the bottom of the priority list for these people regardless of what they say.

You can find it pathetic if you want, lets just hope that you are not a member of any civic organization, church, or university. Because if you are, your being a hypocrite. But you haven't answered those questions because it would reveal you for what you are. Stop throwing stones from your glass house. Also, I would like some evidence that people working as individuals can produce more in the name of charity and good works than groups. This is AT THE FACE OF IT a lie. Do you know WHY such charity and philanthropy exists? Because people pooling money and working together achieve more good than people working alone.

Originally posted by kozmoEdited to add: Your fallacious non-sequiturs regarding churches or institutions of higher learning are laughable. The last I checked I was welcome to walk through the door at any time and share either in learning or worship sans secrets. The purpose of higher learning is education and churches worship - secret societies foster neither. In fact, both churches and learning institutions offer philanthropic opportunities and personal enrichment opportunities and dispense of both EQUALLY and without prejudiced. The very fact that your is a "Craft" makes it that much more laughable.

And yet again we see this anti-mason has nothing but ad hominem attacks and logical fallacies. Logical fallacies committed by you in just this thread: sweeping generalizations, false dilemma, ad hominem circumstantial. You should check out my Anti-Mason thread, I cover all of this for you in that thread.

You must not have been to too many universities or churches. I know of no university which lets you come in and start "sharing" your views with a class you are not a member of, nor do I know of any church where you can come in and start worshipping in whatever way you want. It's time for you to go out in the real world, little one.

But - wait - what's this - churches and higher learning institutions offer philanthropic opportunities? But you've just told us thats all laughable because we should all be doing the same things on our own. You should really learn how to construct an argument and not contradict yourself. It's becoming comical.

I have to say, brethren, this anti-mason is probably the easiest one yet. Its just too easy. Is this guy one of the masons posing as an anti-mason to demonstrate their complete stupidity?

Originally posted by kozmo
Is there a T&C that prohibits a member from sharing a counter viewpoint? I singled out no one and shared only my personal opinions on the matter - no violation of T&Cs.

But you didn't just "share your personal opinions on the matter". You lumped all Masons into a generalized category, and set about degrading them. This is called a straw man argument: You create a "straw man", associate the straw man with real people, and heap abuse on the straw man, therefore attempting to make the real people guilty by association.
In formal logic, such an argument is fallacious and invalid.

Also, everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but your assertion that only people "without will" become Freemasons seems absurd. Was Washington "without will"? What about Mozart and Voltaire? Mark Twain or Sir Arthur Conan Doyle? FDR or Churchill? Exceptions to the rule, maybe?

I would say, after reviewing the lists of great Masons throughout history, probably not.

[edit on 13-12-2007 by Masonic Light]

reply to post by Masonic Light


Tiresome!

No, I do not find your "personal observations" insulting as your opinion of me has little significance with respect to the values I place on my own personal mission. I guess the difference between your rant and mine is that mine was directed to an inanimate group (meaning a system of beliefs) as a whole and not at any particular individual whereas... I believe you get the idea.

Following, no I am not a member of any church, secretive institution or fraternity as I find their very nature juvenile at best and sinister at worst. Further, the comparison of Masons to those attending colleges or churches is a continued non-sequitur for obvious reasons.

My personal validation comes not from acceptance into fraternity, reaching degrees or any other form of external acceptance, but from how I live my life and how I contribute my energies to society as a whole - not some sub-group (i.e. "Brethren") as ALL of mankind are brothers and sisters. I will be judged individually by my Maker and only His opinion and acceptance of me and my lifestyle are important - the same cannot be said of you and yours.

Your continued obfuscation of my opinion will in no way change my perceptions yet simply reinforce that which I already know in my heart and bear witness to others who have similar feelings of such organizations. Again, my apologies that you are "insulted" that I prefer to dedicate my energies to mankind as a whole without feeling the need to belong to a special group or subset of the population.

Originally posted by LightinDarkness
I have to say, brethren, this anti-mason is probably the easiest one yet. Its just too easy. Is this guy one of the masons posing as an anti-mason to demonstrate their complete stupidity?

I am certain that your "brethren" are beaming with pride at your ability to live within the charter and present your organization as one of higher moral character. Apparently, as evidenced by your scholarly prose, the Masons truly are a group dedicated to the benefit of all of mankind.

reply to post by kozmo


What the hell are you talking about? What does *any* of that mess have to do with what I wrote?

reply to post by kozmo


Wanna bet?

From the T&C:

2) Behavior: You will not behave in an abusive, hateful and/or racist manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack anyone.

8) Right of Community Management This is a privately owned discussion board community. The Owners and senior moderator staff reserve the right to take action against any member who is deemed to be devoted purely to disruption.

Now, let's let the TOPIC continue.

reply to post by Masonic Light


My apologies... I meant for that to reply to LightInDarkness, not you.

Edit to add: To your post I will say that it would construe a Straw Man if I was, in fact, attempting to valid my argument with a presentation of fact, which I was not. I was simply sharing my opinion on the general psychology of those who so ardently defend secret societies and the reasons given for their membership. My presentation was both sardonic and sarcastic and was presented as my opinion. Again, my apologies if my opinion is offensive to you. But it is probably no more or less offensive than the continued bleating that those of us who do not believe in secret societies have to endure when hearing from those who defend it.

On another note, yes, many of those men were great men. However, I would surmise that it was not Masonry which made them great, it was the fabric of who those men were as INDIVIDUALS. I do not consider their membership in Masonry as a necessary precursor to their greatness. I am certain that there are a similar number of failures in the "Craft" as well. Logically then it would follow that it was not Masonry which made them failures either, correct?



[edit on 13-12-2007 by kozmo]

Originally posted by kozmo


My apologies... I meant for that to reply to LightInDarkness, not you.

Ah ok, no problem. Intrepid's right, let's get back to topic.

reply to post by intrepid


Intrepid...

I have no beef with you, nor have I ever. In fact, you and I have ebngaged in a great many spirited debates over the years. It is with the utmost respect that I defend my post. I think it is safe to say that I have not behaved in a manner any differently than others engaged in this thread.

For the sake of decorum and being mindful of the intended spirit of the site, I will moderate my tone in accordance with the T&Cs. Thanks.

Now, back to the topic.

Originally posted by golddragnet
Haha, more nonsense from the see-through masonic propaganda machine. Just completely ignore the reply I gave him earlier

Yes, that's exactly what we do (I am not a mason), because it's obvious you don't know what you're talking about.

Both the Lord Himself and James say that Christians must not swear oaths! They come from evil and bring condemnation. If you say you trust the Bible and still do those things, you have to be a blind fool or a liar.

So what has trusting the bible brought you so far in life? Anything? Because if it had brought you what we're talking about, you would know. If you have to think about it, that's not it. And if you knew it, you'd ignore what you've posted too.

It doesn't really matter what you post anyway. What are you going to do about it?

[edit on 13-12-2007 by bsbray11]

reply to post by golddragnet

Haha, more nonsense from the see-through masonic propaganda machine.

Do you even know what propaganda means? .. That was anything but propaganda lol....

Just completely ignore the reply I gave him earlier, as it shows you can't be a true christian and a mason at the same time.

Why not? ... Masonry does absolutely nothing what so ever to prohibit and disrupt in any way your connection to what ever God you choose.

Is Christianity so petty that if you join a charitable fraternity your God no longer wants you?

I can honestly say many Christian Masons would be offended by such nonsense.. and I get the feeling that the Christian Masons on this board are far better Christians and have a far better understanding on the religion than you sir.

gave the very lame reply that people who know the words of the bible are simply lacking knowledge of freemasonry!!! What a load of bs.

Any one can read words, letters, sentences, piece it together and make an audible noise.

It takes time and effort to UNDERSTAND and comprehend what it is you read. Try it some time.

It must be that you are refering to the christians who wrote the bible

Doesn't even make sense. But what ever. The only thing I find hilarious albeit a little sad is the devout fanaticism of some people, who strive for a gaol of complete ignorance about their own faith.

If anything, Masonry should help a Christian man become a better Christian by applying the tools of Masonry to every day life.

[edit on 12/13/2007 by Rockpuck]

Both the Lord Himself and James say that Christians must not swear oaths! They come from evil and bring condemnation. If you say you trust the Bible and still do those things, you have to be a blind fool or a liar.

what about swearing an oath in a court of law? What about joining the military?