New Freemason, having some doubts

reply to post by kozmo


Kozmo, I am only an entered apprentice and very new to freemasonry, but I will attempt to explain to you why I joined and what I think freemasonry represents.

I joined because (like you) I want to be better man/citizen/father/husband and you are correct that these are all achievable without masonry. I think that masonry however puts these efforts into focus and reminds you daily of the importance of self-improvement. Now seeking out this direction does not make me weak willed or less of a man, on the contrary I think it makes me in fact strong willed by the fact that I freely chose to seek this path.

In regards to why certain aspects of it are secret, I look at it like this: Secrets are not kept to make us more "important" or "elitists", it is simply a lesson of devotion and utmost integrity that further instills in a brother the qualities of a better man. The quote "secrets" can be found online are of little consequence really. Without our "word" or "integrity" masons or non masons alike are a liability to society versus an asset.

I am sure you are fine upstanding member of your community with the highest morals and integrity and for that you should be proud, but to suggest I seek these lessons through the craft makes me a lesser man I find insulting. I don't begrudge you though, I just simply believe that you have a misunderstanding of the masons. This is not your fault, as many people out there are exposed to more negativity about freemasonry than the positive.

I hope this helps explain a little about my views of freemasonry and why I joined.


[edit on 12-12-2007 by The Oak]

Originally posted by kozmoMy 2 cents... Secret societies, clubs and such are for little men and women who do not have the courage or self-conviction to stand on their own. They need chronic validation that only comes from others with small character and shared self-doubt. They revel in the childish fact that only "they" understand their silly games and traditions and that they said nonsense is a mystery to those on the "outside."

...and the next four paragraphs of insults. I only quoted the first one, no need to replicate the rest.

Does anyone else notice that people who attack (and there can be no dispute that is what this poster is doing) the fraternity always must open with insults? Does anyone else find it strange that individuals who disagree with masonry cannot discuss the merits of the fraternity, and must first begin with insults? I think in and of itself such tactics stand on their own, I don't even have to comment on it. That the poster must resort to them speaks more loudly than anything I could ever say.

Originally posted by kozmoAs far as "watching me", I can only hope that you are. Perhaps you will learn something about being a complete person with the will and conviction to stand for who YOU are as a unique individual on the public stage for all to see. It is those of us able to make public our beliefs and celebrations that contribute to the growth and development of the human race and society as a whole. As human beings, we are one and one is a part of all. It is truly sad that you feel a need to separate yourselves from all of your brothers and sisters.

I find it very telling that the first paragraphs of your post do nothing but insult, and then you proceed to tell us that you are a "complete person with will and conviction." Again, I don't even need to say anymore. You words speak loud and clear to all who can discern what's really going on here.

I would only say that you live in a world completely separated from mine if you see no point for groups who share a common belief and/or philosophy to meet together. Of course, if you were being true to yourself, this would mean that you do not ever darken the doors of any civic organization or church. In fact, you probably shouldn't even be going to any institution of higher education - since such institutions are at their core a group of people committed to learning. And as you say, we simply can't have people separating themselves based on beliefs, we have to be one big society! This is of course a false dilemma fallacy on your part because it is quite possible for people to associate based on belief and be united in society.

Originally posted by kozmoOh, and by the way, my brother-in-law and his father are Masons as is one of my closest friends. I have been invited to join many, many times. What!/ And miss out on the greater human experience!? I wouldn't even think about it!

I find it interesting that those who insult the fraternity always feel the need to let everyone know that they were invited - numerous times even! Of course the reality is that while very rarely someone gets invited, it would be extraordinary indeed to be invited numerous times after you have declined. And yet, it seems to happen often, for a good portion of those who insult the fraternity always seem to be in this position.

For future reference, claiming this sort of thing (true or not) does not actually lend you any credibility. If you were one of the rare people to be invited (as such is still looked down upon by a vast majority of the fraternity) all it means is that there is a perception that you were a good member of the community. What lends credibility is not that you were perceived to be a good person, because from your response I can tell you that upon further investigation the lodge would most certainly find you have not yet been prepared in your heart - and given the response, you may never be.

reply to post by kozmo

My 2 cents... Secret societies, clubs and such are for little men and women who do not have the courage or self-conviction to stand on their own. They need chronic validation that only comes from others with small character and shared self-doubt. They revel in the childish fact that only "they" understand their silly games and traditions and that they said nonsense is a mystery to those on the "outside."

Is there a reason to be so rude?..

Little men and woman? .. Cowards? .. Chronic validation? .. Small character? .. Masonry can be understood by anyone.. you don't have to be a Mason to learn Masonic philosophy. It is at the core of every major religion if you look hard enough. To say that the only reason people join is because they are small worthless cowardly shallow people is beyond rude, its pathetic. No Mason I know thinks of himself better then any one else for being a Mason.

If the stated purpose of these organizations were truthful then stronger willed humans would have the fortitude to engage in these activities in public forum

What is this supposed to mean? No one great has ever been a Mason? .. 14 US presidents, our founding fathers, numerous actors, inventors, corporate giants and so on.

for the greater good of society instead of hiding behind their "lodge" or whatever other nonsense they want to call it. Sororities, Fraternaties etc... all the belweather of littel people who feel a need of acceptance that cannot otherwise come from forced fraternity of other members.

Just this week there was a thread on "what good does Masonry do" .. Perhaps you should read it, then read some Grand Lodge websites and see a list of charities supported. The only person you demean in your post is your self. It really is bad light you put onto your self.

I feel very sad for you people

That's fine.. we feel sad for people like you.. who would rather judge all people of a single group and blast them with insults.

needing to lead such a sheltered existence in order to feel a part of something. It is very saddening that people like you cannot exult in the sense of brotherhood that society as whole is able to offer without all of the silly childishness of handshakes, alters, titles, ceremonies, and such.

Most of which is ritual and traditional.. Masonry its self is not secretive in any way, and anyone can join.. I don't think you would make a good Mason and we choose to not allow entrance for people like your self.. but people with good morals are free to join of their own accord. Not sheltered in the least.

As far as "watching me", I can only hope that you are. Perhaps you will learn something about being a complete person with the will and conviction to stand for who YOU are as a unique individual on the public stage for all to see.

Honestly you just sound bitter and angry, far from "complete" .. who's watching you exactly?

It is those of us able to make public our beliefs and celebrations that contribute to the growth and development of the human race and society as a whole. As human beings, we are one and one is a part of all. It is truly sad that you feel a need to separate yourselves from all of your brothers and sisters.

Well, hate to burst your self righteous bubble here.. there is no secret about Masonry or its philosophical beliefs. There are ignorant people who can hear it but still preach what you preach, and that will never change.

Oh, and by the way, my brother-in-law and his father are Masons as is one of my closest friends. I have been invited to join many, many times. What!/ And miss out on the greater human experience!? I wouldn't even think about it!

I am very glad you didn't join.. quite honestly you don't sound like a very nice person to be around.. where does all the anger come from anyways? Mason do you wrong somewhere?

Originally posted by BrokenEmpires
I have another question. Why does it seem like a lot of Freemasons are always in high positions of power. Not all but there are quite a few. Hense those crazy conspiracies....

Like whom?

give us examples of who these people are

reply to post by kozmo


This isn't a "reply" as much as a point out to Tet, as kozmo's post is a perfect example of of the anti-Masons using straw man arguments and ad hominem fallacies per the discussion on the other thread.

See what we mean?

reply to post by kozmo


Which has what to do with the topic? A canned response to insult and bait fellow members?

I hope he doesn't say anything about helping a homeless man and if that makes him a good person cause I can't afford anymore points this week.

Linger longer...

Masonry is a beautiful journey of introspections and enlightenments, but there is no doubt as to the difference of interpretated experiences one would be likely to find can be diverse, especially as to the degrees; not just contingent on the number of the degree or how "far up" one goes in it. Every time I have either been present at a degree or worked in rituals, I have seen a new facet and message in the process. Reflection of the "work" and its' meanings could be ongoing, well after the degree.

I see the degrees as similar to attending a college or discourse, with the ones present wanting to learn more. They are not compelled or bullied to be there: they want to be there. They glean much from it, hopefully, as anyone could if they were members. You can't attend a college you are not enrolled in, right?

Whether one is a Mason or not, it is a similar experience to any working or "crafting" , shall I say, that is felt through a process. A potter works with his clay to get to the final product, and a sculpture chips away at the stone to get to the true image he sees or feels, cutting away at all of the other B.S. until done.

There is also always a human element in any organization, club, fraternity, church, etc.: there exists some with higher ideals and visions, and many do not. Many times, individuals who have been members of organizations or structures, such as in the Masonic fraternity, might lose some sight into what it and they were all about in the past.

A lot of members do not want to take jobs in Lodge, especially in the Blue Lodge, due to the demand of time that is required. If they have gone through "the chairs" already, it has been years of work and commitment and it is demanding. Much of the time, the Brethren that can do and commit to the "chairs" are retired or semi-retired, and they have far more time than the younger ones. Years ago, when life was at a slower pace, I am sure it was easier. Today, most eveyone is very busy and more mobile.

Get out of Masonry what you sought: there is as much there to drink as your thirst will enable. Do not let the more- base aspects of the Lodge, such as money matters and petty personalities, wreck your "travel east".

As far as racism, it is regretfull that anyone , anywhere today is still dealing with such foolish and hateful axioms such as what you experienced. I will tell you that any of that foolish and hurtful banter is not tolerated in any Lodges, Chapters, Council, Consisteries, Commanderies or other bodies here in Northeast United States that I have been in for 18 years now. Here we are, in the 21st Century, and we all still must fight this scourge- unbelievable.


"He that hath an ear, let him hear."

Originally posted by brhorn
Masonry is a beautiful journey of introspections and enlightenments

This is nothing unique to the masons.

In fact, anyone can open a lodge and call themselves what they will. Thus you get racist lodges. I would also be concerned about people getting big heads from what they may be taught, thinking they are suddenly better than someone else because of it. There are all number of such problems, and ultimately you have to take your banner for yourself anyway.

Anything the masons could do for you, you could do on your own. And so have people done for thousands of years without the masons. Zen buddhists do it (the conscious transformation), Kabbalists do it, gnostics do it, taoists do it, psychonauts do it, and so do many independent individuals who don't even need actual participation in such cliques to get the messages. In the right state of mind, everything bears the relevant information, as it's inherent to everything.


The method I'd recommend is looking up the Tao te Ching and zen koans and really putting some thought behind them both (probably only because that's what initially hooked me ), then going to Amazon.com or some other bookseller and looking for titles by Alan Watts, or the Illuminatus trilogy (by Robert Anton Wilson), for example. It's serious stuff, and you should be looking to internalize the material, not just skim it and be momentarily amused by what is presented before you. It's when you internalize them that concepts start falling into place, one by one, and changing the way you see everything around you. I hate to reference mind-altering substances, but native american shamans know what's up with them.

And then there's Euclid. Maybe you masons could probably teach me a few things about him. Or any geometry in general?; you're the ones with the compasses.

[edit on 13-12-2007 by bsbray11]

Originally posted by stompk
This is great. The Masons immediately question your integrity because you are second guessing your decision.

This is a perfect example of why no one in their right mind should ever join the occult called Freemason.

Disgusting.

by the way, I flagged it for you.

And oh, by the way, 8 masons replies before the OP replied.

Yeah, I observed the same thing, the masons on this site are hilarious.

Well, if you decide to continue in that lodge, or in any other lodge, you can keep us informed of your activities, you can make a monthly report...sounds like the meeting was alot of fun and you have found a nice bunch of guys to hang out with

And be wary of giving too much details to the other masons here or in u2u, who knows what they will have planned for you

Have you been introduced to your Worshipful Master & Worshipful GrandMaster

"Worshipful” is defined in the dictionary as “worthy of being worshiped”
“Grand” in definition includes “to swell up, pride, most important”
"Master" is defined as "one who rules others, has control, authority"

What does the bible say about this....hmm

"No one can serve two Masters; for he Will hate the one and love the other.. (Matt. 6:24)
"Neither be ye called Masters; for ONE is your Master, even Christ.” (Matt. 23:10)

If you believe in the bible then these men act in direct disobedience to Jesus

They have also exalted some men in the Lodge (Shriners) as the "Imperial Grand Potentate", according to the bible that is a designation which belongs to Jesus alone.

Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and ONLY Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; (1 Tim. 6:15)

It is also said in the bible NOT to swear oaths (what are your feelings on that?) The Master Mason makes a solemn oath on the Bible to "Acknowledge and obey all due signs and summons sent to me from a Master Masons' Lodge... all this I most solemnly and sincerely swear... So help me God" with the penalty of death by mutilation!"

“Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.” (from the devil) Matt 5:33-37

But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation. James 5:12

"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." Matthew 12:36

Has blindfolding been an issue?
" they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." Matthew 15:14

Have you heard the name “Abaddon". Abaddon is a Hebrew word that means "destroyer" which is the "demon of the bottomless pit" and is referred to in Rev. 9:11.

"And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. " Rev 9:10-11 (911?)

I wouldn't want this demon to be my God! Or maybe you have heard the name JAH-BUL-ON ", with BUL and ON to be the demon gods of other nations.

Well, I guess it all depends on your stance on the bible, and how much you want to learn about other "beliefs".

[edit on 13-12-2007 by golddragnet]

Were you not baptised? Did you not promise to live your life according to God's word?

Baptism, too, is an oath. Any argument here would be semantics.

Originally posted by golddragnet

Well, I guess it all depends on your stance on the bible, and how much you want to learn about other "beliefs".

Actually, it depends much more on posting serious discussions vs. trolling.

Originally posted by bsbray11


Anything the masons could do for you, you could do on your own. And so have people done for thousands of years without the masons. Zen buddhists do it

Actually, Zen Buddhism has always required a Zen Master.

Kabbalists do it

In traditional Judaic Kabalism, a learned rabbi taught the neophytes. In Hermetic Kabalah, initiation has always been required.

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by brhorn
Masonry is a beautiful journey of introspections and enlightenments

This is nothing unique to the masons.

It is unique. I think what you meant to say was that it isn't exclusive and to that end, I don't think you'd get much contradiction. However, I'd venture that there's precious-few organisations like it.

Originally posted by bsbray11
In fact, anyone can open a lodge and call themselves what they will.

Anybody can open a group and call it a masonic lodge but they'd be what's termed an irregular lodge by the Provincial/State Grand Lodge and anyone joining with even a smidgen of knowledge about Masonry would recognise it as such.

Originally posted by bsbray11
I would also be concerned about people getting big heads from what they may be taught, thinking they are suddenly better than someone else because of it. There are all number of such problems, and ultimately you have to take your banner for yourself anyway.

That'd sort of be like worrying about people getting big heads going to church/temple/etc. That isn't to say it can't happen but that's displays more of a shortcoming of a particular individual as opposed to a shortcoming of teachings. In fact, the Working Tools lecture in the 2nd Degree addresses that particularly.

Originally posted by bsbray11
Anything the masons could do for you, you could do on your own.

Agreed. But to do so on your own requires a self-awareness that's pretty uncommon. Masonry is an adjunct to one's faith, not a replacement.

Originally posted by Saurus
Were you not baptised? Did you not promise to live your life according to God's word?

Baptism, too, is an oath. Any argument here would be semantics.

Actually I am not a Christian. I believe in a creator and higher power, but in my belief it is not "your" Jesus, so you argument does not apply to me. Even if I was a Christian, you could learn that you can be both a mason and christian. The are not mutually exclusive.

I have been in the craft for 15 years and I have never regreted ever taking my obligations. I am a member in NYC and we never have a problem when it comes to members moving up the line in fact we have members scrambling to get into the line of officers. We also don't have a problem when it comes to doing our degrees since my lodge distinquishes itself with its ritual work. My advice is to visit other lodges in your district and see how they work. You are bound to find a lodge that is suitable to your needs. The lodge you belong to sounds like they are a bunch of old, tired brothers who are ready to turn in their charter. Good luck and don't give up on the craft.
R:.W:. A. Serrano, PDDGM

Originally posted by The Oak
reply to post by kozmo

 

Kozmo, I am only an entered apprentice and very new to freemasonry, but I will attempt to explain to you why I joined and what I think freemasonry represents.

I joined because (like you) I want to be better man/citizen/father/husband and you are correct that these are all achievable without masonry. I think that masonry however puts these efforts into focus and reminds you daily of the importance of self-improvement. Now seeking out this direction does not make me weak willed or less of a man, on the contrary I think it makes me in fact strong willed by the fact that I freely chose to seek this path.

In regards to why certain aspects of it are secret, I look at it like this: Secrets are not kept to make us more "important" or "elitists", it is simply a lesson of devotion and utmost integrity that further instills in a brother the qualities of a better man. The quote "secrets" can be found online are of little consequence really. Without our "word" or "integrity" masons or non masons alike are a liability to society versus an asset.

I am sure you are fine upstanding member of your community with the highest morals and integrity and for that you should be proud, but to suggest I seek these lessons through the craft makes me a lesser man I find insulting. I don't begrudge you though, I just simply believe that you have a misunderstanding of the masons. This is not your fault, as many people out there are exposed to more negativity about freemasonry than the positive.

I hope this helps explain a little about my views of freemasonry and why I joined.


[edit on 12-12-2007 by The Oak]

From your post you seem to have resolved your doubts, which was the origin of this thread. Congratulations on an excellent response to a very good question. Your response shows a very good grasp of masonry, one well beyond several Master Masons in my lodge. Please continue along your chosen path and don’t get disheartened by the occasional disgruntled brother you may meet. You have every indication of becoming one of our future shining lights.

Originally posted by The Oak

Originally posted by Saurus
Were you not baptised? Did you not promise to live your life according to God's word?

Baptism, too, is an oath. Any argument here would be semantics.

Actually I am not a Christian. I believe in a creator and higher power, but in my belief it is not "your" Jesus, so you argument does not apply to me. Even if I was a Christian, you could learn that you can be both a mason and christian. The are not mutually exclusive.

No you can't, a true Christian believes in the teachings of Christ, and unless he follows, or attempts to follow, those teachings he isn't a Christian.

I have already given a brief outlining why? To say you can be both is hypocrisy.
The Masonic oaths are taken on the Holy Bible, which the Masons are told is only one of the "three great lights of Masonry." Yet that very Bible contains the commands of God that should stop any Christian Mason in his tracks and drive him to repentance if he were a true Christian. Claiming to be a christian isn't the same as being a christian. Jesus has commanded us to "Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne: nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matt.5: 34-37)

James 5:12 says almost the same thing, except that he says that if you swear such oaths you will "fall under condemnation." Both the Lord Himself and James say that Christians must not swear oaths! They come from evil and bring condemnation. If you say you trust the Bible and still do those things, you have to be a blind fool or a liar. Sorry if that offends you, but what would you call it? You have done that which offends the Lord if you believe the bible.

I personally am not saying the bible is right or wrong, but I am highlighting the hypocrisy of the masons who claim to be christians.

The central feature of the Masonic initiation as an Entered Apprentice is a solemn and binding oath taken on the Bible in the name of God, involving serious blood penalties.

Masonic leaders might say that we have to swear oaths in court, or when we join the military or some such thing. This is not true! No Christian is required to take an oath in court, and most Christians who know their Bibles well, will refuse the oath on the grounds that Jesus forbade them to do such things and then will simply affirm that they will tell the truth without an oath. Any court in the land will accept that. It is freedom of religion!

Do you know what the Ten Commandments are? Did you know that the Masonic obligations break TWO of those commandments at least? The Lord God commands that we shall not kill (Exodus 20:13). Yet in their oaths, Masons swear murder and suicide for the oath-taker, if the oaths are broken!!!—both of which are breaking the 6th commandment. PLUS, they are asking God in heaven to come down and witness a solemn oath where they are consenting to break one of His commandments. If that isn’t taking the name of the Lord in vain, what is the meaning of the word???

I have no wish to spend much time talking about freemasonry, as I think the people who ascribe to it are brainwashed and much of their posts on this website is such see-through nonsense and propaganda. You have made your own decisions to be a mason of your own freewill, well try to enjoy it if thats what you want, but don't have the wool pulled over your eyes that someone can be a christian and a mason at the same time.

Originally posted by The Oak
Actually I am not a Christian. I believe in a creator and higher power, but in my belief it is not "your" Jesus, so you argument does not apply to me. Even if I was a Christian, you could learn that you can be both a mason and christian. The are not mutually exclusive.

You're absolutely correct. From my experience, those who that Christianity and Freemasonry are not compatible are generally seriously lacking in knowledge of both Freemasonry *and* Christianity.

Good luck on your journey, and travel well.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by The Oak
Actually I am not a Christian. I believe in a creator and higher power, but in my belief it is not "your" Jesus, so you argument does not apply to me. Even if I was a Christian, you could learn that you can be both a mason and christian. The are not mutually exclusive.

You're absolutely correct. From my experience, those who that Christianity and Freemasonry are not compatible are generally seriously lacking in knowledge of both Freemasonry *and* Christianity.

Good luck on your journey, and travel well.

Haha, more nonsense from the see-through masonic propaganda machine. Just completely ignore the reply I gave him earlier, as it shows you can't be a true christian and a mason at the same time. gave the very lame reply that people who know the words of the bible are simply lacking knowledge of freemasonry!!! What a load of bs. So who exactly were you saying lacked knowledge of christianity and freemasonry??? It must be that you are refering to the christians who wrote the bible

You masons are hilarious