New Freemason, having some doubts

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posted on Dec, 15 2007 @ 01:35 PM
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Originally posted by spirit7



If you are a Christian then you should have your doubts.


He already said he wasn't. Why are anti-Masons so fixated on others' religious beliefs? Are you guys truly so insecure in your own beliefs that you feel such a great need to convert everybody else to help you feel better?




posted on Dec, 15 2007 @ 02:00 PM
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Fitz has already done a fantastic job addressing spirit7. However, I feel the need to respond because I have the same theology as spirit7 in that I do believe Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation in this world. However, I have been trying to demonstrate in my dialogue with him that just because others hold that theology does not mean they use it as an excuse for their preconceived beliefs that have no basis in scripture.


Originally posted by spirit7
If you are a Christian then you should have your doubts. Nothing that Jesus ever did was in secrecy, in fact he specifically pointed out that he did not keep secrets. That whisper that they do in their "brotherens" ear is symbolic of how the devil is constantly trying to trick us.


No Christians should ever have a doubt about joining freemasonry or participating in its work. This is for the same basic reason that no Christian should ever have a doubt about joining the boy scouts and participating in their work. Masonry is only a institution which uses ceremony to promote social capital, and then build upon that cohesion through community service. I have looked very hard in the bible, and I see no where that it says "thou shalt NOT participate in any events with those that do not have your identical theology." If you find it, let me know. I do, however, see verses that extol Christians to be a good example in their community and to teach the gospel using peace and love - not fear, as spirit7 is doing.


Originally posted by spirit7
they want to accuse me of having a tin foil hat because I am religous? You don't have to become a freemason to honor your grandfather and father. God gave us freewill already and that is the most important gift that he did give to us besides his sacrafice so that he could pay for our sins. You don't have to earn your way into heaven! SUPRISE!


This is odd because I'm just as religious as you are, and yet no one accuses me of having a tin foil hat. It is probably because I do not use my religious beliefs to fulfil my own personal agenda - just sayin'.

Also, this is YET AGAIN a use of a straw man logical fallacy. No mason that I have seen has ever claimed (1) that participating in masonry lets you earn your way into heaven, or (2) that we can earn our way into heaven. Do you know why? Because masonry makes no religious claims.


Originally posted by spirit7
realize that God was on a mission when he sent Jesus here to save us, that he also sent Jesus here to show us the correct way and to lead by example! It's hard to be strong in today's society but we must choose to follow in our fathers footsteps and to never give in!


Why do you not take your own advice? Why do YOU not lead by example by showing that Christianity is not a tool to accomplish your pre-established agenda, and that God does not condone any individual to making sweeping generalizations that an entire fraternity is nothing but the tool of the devil. It's so hard to be strong in today's society and not lash out and attack those who we disagree with, but we must choose to take the higher path and show that our faith stands without having to attack others!



posted on Dec, 15 2007 @ 06:29 PM
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Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Originally posted by spirit7
reply to post by The Oak
 


Then they want to accuse me of having a tin foil hat because I am religous?


No. Because you use religion as a cover for your "tin foil hat". And because you act as if you personally have the ear of the Almighty to the exclusion of everyone else who doesn't act as you do. That's a sin too, bubba! One of the Deadlies IIRC.

[edit on 15-12-2007 by Fitzgibbon]


So, in other words, you are saying that it's a sin to have a personal relationship with Jesus? I don't think so, bub. We all have a personal and intimate relationship with Jesus, it's just that some of us choose not to communicate with him. And there is nothing tin foil about my religion either. As a matter of fact, I have no problem with anyone else's religion, except for Freemasonry and yes, I am always in the fighting spirit! AMEN



posted on Dec, 15 2007 @ 06:39 PM
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reply to post by spirit7
 


Why do you single masons out for your objection to their religious beliefs? The majority of masons are Christians.



posted on Dec, 15 2007 @ 06:54 PM
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Originally posted by spirit7

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Originally posted by spirit7
reply to post by The Oak
 


Then they want to accuse me of having a tin foil hat because I am religous?


No. Because you use religion as a cover for your "tin foil hat". And because you act as if you personally have the ear of the Almighty to the exclusion of everyone else who doesn't act as you do. That's a sin too, bubba! One of the Deadlies IIRC.

[edit on 15-12-2007 by Fitzgibbon]


So, in other words, you are saying that it's a sin to have a personal relationship with Jesus? I don't think so, bub. We all have a personal and intimate relationship with Jesus, it's just that some of us choose not to communicate with him. And there is nothing tin foil about my religion either. As a matter of fact, I have no problem with anyone else's religion, except for Freemasonry and yes, I am always in the fighting spirit! AMEN


You just don't get that your sin is the sin of PRIDE. Geddit? You act as if you're the only one that has an angle on Jesus. I'm an Anglican. I don't think that Anglicans have a lock on access to the Almighty. I believe that Catholics and Baptists are as beloved. I can't really say that I see any of that sort of recognition in any post of yours.

And I didn't say that religion is a tin foil hat. I said that you use it "as a cover for your "tin foil hat"". That is to say, that you're a nutter and religion's your camouflage. And, although I'm sure it won't sink in with you....

FREEMASONRY IS NOT A RELIGION!!!!!!

Geddit? Grow up and show some recognition of what goes on beyond your immediate sphere. You might be surprised that others in this world are worth getting to understand. As is, you do discredit to the Christian faith.



posted on Dec, 15 2007 @ 07:02 PM
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Originally posted by Masonic Student
reply to post by spirit7
 


Why do you single masons out for your objection to their religious beliefs? The majority of masons are Christians.


That's the problem, Christians should not be worshipping a supreme being. They should only be worshipping the the one true God and the part of himselft that he gave for us, Jesus Christ and they sure as heck shouldn't be kneeling down and submitting themselves to some worshipful master. Rather then that, they should be working on their own intimacy with Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ specifically pointed out that nothing he did was in secrecy. Anyway, I don't have a problem with the people who are freemasons in general because I believe that the majority of you guys are good. The problem I have is with the gnostic "craft" itself because of how it's used. Rather than caving in to pressure and submitting themselves to something so sectretive and mysterious that they no not what they are getting themselves into, you should turn to Jesus Christ instead. The devil is always trying to get you to kneel and take the easy way out but it's Jesus Christ that requires you to be strong and to stand.



posted on Dec, 15 2007 @ 07:07 PM
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Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Originally posted by spirit7

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Originally posted by spirit7
reply to post by The Oak
 


Then they want to accuse me of having a tin foil hat because I am religous?


No. Because you use religion as a cover for your "tin foil hat". And because you act as if you personally have the ear of the Almighty to the exclusion of everyone else who doesn't act as you do. That's a sin too, bubba! One of the Deadlies IIRC.

[edit on 15-12-2007 by Fitzgibbon]


So, in other words, you are saying that it's a sin to have a personal relationship with Jesus? I don't think so, bub. We all have a personal and intimate relationship with Jesus, it's just that some of us choose not to communicate with him. And there is nothing tin foil about my religion either. As a matter of fact, I have no problem with anyone else's religion, except for Freemasonry and yes, I am always in the fighting spirit! AMEN


You act as if you're the only one that has an angle on Jesus. I'm an Anglican. I don't think that Anglicans have a lock on access to the Almighty. I believe that Catholics and Baptists are as beloved. I can't really say that I see any of that sort of recognition in any post of yours.

FREEMASONRY IS NOT A RELIGION!!!!!!

Geddit? Grow up and show some recognition of what goes on beyond your immediate sphere. You might be surprised that others in this world are worth getting to understand. As is, you do discredit to the Christian faith.


Yes, Freemasonry is a religion that deturs you from the real faith, you're the one that doesn't get it. And yes, Catholics and Prodestants are all Christians, if that's what you are asking. Believe me, there is nothing good about your secret organization, no matter how it is disguised. My immediate sphere is Jesus Christ, good luck trying to detur me from that!



posted on Dec, 15 2007 @ 07:09 PM
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reply to post by spirit7
 


May Lucifers light be with you, shine on you and in you.





posted on Dec, 15 2007 @ 07:14 PM
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Originally posted by spirit7
The devil is always trying to get you to kneel and take the easy way out but it's Jesus Christ that requires you to be strong and to stand.


Indeed.

The easy way out is to do nothing but post on a internet message board proclaiming that there is something evil in a community service fraternity. The easy way out is to use sweeping generalizations to divide people into good and evil. The easy way out is to use your religion as a tool to wage war against people who actually believe the same thing you do, and to proclaim that you alone could possibly know about the true nature of masonry. Because obviously, we Christian masons are just being lured by the devil.

Perhaps you should stop taking the easy way out, yourself.



posted on Dec, 15 2007 @ 07:17 PM
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reply to post by LightinDarkness
 



No thanks, my father-in-law already offered to call his friend named "Pete" when I brought up my job sitution, but I turned his invite down. Taking the easy way out is by joining a secret society.



posted on Dec, 15 2007 @ 07:22 PM
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Originally posted by spirit7

Originally posted by Masonic Student
reply to post by spirit7
 


Why do you single masons out for your objection to their religious beliefs? The majority of masons are Christians.


That's the problem, Christians should not be worshipping a supreme being. They should only be worshipping the the one true God and the part of himselft that he gave for us, Jesus Christ and they sure as heck shouldn't be kneeling down and submitting themselves to some worshipful master. Rather then that, they should be working on their own intimacy with Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ specifically pointed out that nothing he did was in secrecy. Anyway, I don't have a problem with the people who are freemasons in general because I believe that the majority of you guys are good. The problem I have is with the gnostic "craft" itself because of how it's used. Rather than caving in to pressure and submitting themselves to something so sectretive and mysterious that they no not what they are getting themselves into, you should turn to Jesus Christ instead. The devil is always trying to get you to kneel and take the easy way out but it's Jesus Christ that requires you to be strong and to stand.


Masonic teachings tell masons to strengthen their service to their God, not a supreme being, the God of the individual mason. We use the term supreme architect of the universe to allow each mason present to mentally refer to his own God.

In the case of a Christian that God is the very same one to whom you refer, to the Islamic brother it is Allah. It is never the place of masonry to come between the mason and HIS God. In fact during one of the lectures the candidate is taught to divide his time, the first thing mentioned is his duty to God, his God.

After many years of study I have never found anything within any of the teachings of masonry to conflict with any of the teachings of Christ.



posted on Dec, 15 2007 @ 07:22 PM
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please excuse the double post


[edit on 15-12-2007 by Masonic Student]



posted on Dec, 15 2007 @ 07:27 PM
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Originally posted by spirit7


That's the problem, Christians should not be worshipping a supreme being.


So what exactly is God or Jesus Christ? Are they, or him depnding on a persons views, not supreme?


They should only be worshipping the the one true God and the part of himselft that he gave for us, Jesus Christ and they sure as heck shouldn't be kneeling down and submitting themselves to some worshipful master.


None of us kneel down infront of the Worshipful Master. He is an elected official who serves one year. The tittle, 'Worshipful', means respected and is purely an honorific.


Rather then that, they should be working on their own intimacy with Jesus Christ.


This is your own personal opinion and interpertation of Christianity that is not accepted by all.


Anyway, I don't have a problem with the people who are freemasons in general because I believe that the majority of you guys are good.


Really is that so? Care to explain this........


Originally posted by spirit7 Believe me, there is nothing good about your secret organization, no matter how it is disguised.


I think if Jesus Christ were alive to witness your bigoted hatred towards your fellow man he might be somewhat disappointed. Perhaps you should make a better effort to practice some of his tenets and beliefs regarding redeedming and brotherly love.

[edit on 15-12-2007 by AugustusMasonicus]



posted on Dec, 15 2007 @ 07:29 PM
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reply to post by Masonic Student
 


For the most part there is nothing wrong with that in general but you don't need to kneel down to a worshipful master to have an intimate relationship with God and to understand why he gave his son for us.



posted on Dec, 15 2007 @ 07:34 PM
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Originally quote]

So what exactly is God or Jesus Christ? Are they, or him depnding on a persons views, not supreme?





Rather then that, they should be working on their own intimacy with Jesus Christ.


This is your own personal opinion and interpertation of Christianity that is not accepted by all.


Anyway, I don't have a problem with the people who are freemasons in general because I believe that the majority of you guys are good.


Really is that so? Care to explain this........

[quoteI think if Jesus Christ were alive to witness your bigoted hatred towards your fellow man he might be somewhat disappointed. Perhaps you should make a better effort to practice some of his tenets and beliefs regarding redeedming and brotherly love.

[edit on 15-12-2007 by AugustusMasonicus]


God and Jesus Christ are one in the same. Jesus Christ was a part of himself and was refered to as "his son" as part of the example of how we all should be. And yes, all Christians should work on their personal and intimate relationship with our Lord and Savior.



posted on Dec, 15 2007 @ 07:35 PM
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God and Jesus Christ are one in the same. Jesus Christ was a part of himself and was refered to as "his son" as part of the example of how we all should be. And yes, all Christians should work on their personal and intimate relationship with our Lord and Savior.

That shouldn't have been quoted text, sorry. = - )

BTW, I don't have hatred toward any of you. I only have a problem with the craft and the devil himself.



posted on Dec, 15 2007 @ 07:37 PM
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reply to post by spirit7
 


No mason ever kneels to the worshipful master. We kneel to pray as the candidate, pray to our God, we also kneel before the bible and our God to take the obligation. But those are the only time we kneel, and it is only before our God. I use our in this case to mean the individual mason.

No mason is ever asked to kneel to the master of the lodge or even the Grand Master. The title worshipful mean respected.



posted on Dec, 15 2007 @ 07:38 PM
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Questions of higher interest:

Why is the same discussion being held every day?

What are the sides of the discussion hoping to gain? (You dont serioulsy think anyone is going to be converted here, do you?)

And how is it related to the OP?




posted on Dec, 15 2007 @ 07:46 PM
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Originally posted by Masonic Student
reply to post by spirit7
 


No mason ever kneels to the worshipful master. We kneel to pray as the candidate, pray to our God, we also kneel before the bible and our God to take the obligation. But those are the only time we kneel, and it is only before our God. I use our in this case to mean the individual mason.

No mason is ever asked to kneel to the master of the lodge or even the Grand Master. The title worshipful mean respected.


Well I guess there's nothing wrong with that part of it then. I'm more concerned with the types of oaths and secrecy now, can you suggest some good reading material for more accurate research? U2U me with it.

I'm interested knowing more about the ancient mystery and the all seeing eye.

[edit on 15-12-2007 by spirit7]



posted on Dec, 15 2007 @ 07:55 PM
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Originally posted by spirit7


I'm interested knowing more about the ancient mystery and the all seeing eye.


What is the ancient mystery?

The All Seeing Eye is an allegory for God. It symbolizes that the Supreme Architect is ever watchful and our actions are never hidden from him.





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