New Freemason, having some doubts

reply to post by kozmo

If anything this thread has taught me to stop and attempt to understand - fully - the perspective of others prior to offering my own opinion or criticism. As understanding that perspective may often help me to reshape my own. Thank you for that as it has helped me grow.

Congrats, you just proved your self a bigger man then most.

This is not a oneline post.

[edit on 12/14/2007 by Rockpuck]

Originally posted by kozmo
Perhaps I have been too judgemental and have allowed my sweeping generalizations to cloud my ability to realize that what is important to one may not be to another - and for that I am truly sorry. Please accept my apologies.

If anything this thread has taught me to stop and attempt to understand - fully - the perspective of others prior to offering my own opinion or criticism. As understanding that perspective may often help me to reshape my own. Thank you for that as it has helped me grow.

Dude, you just made my time on this thread worth it. Between the OP, you and Tet, that is. Not that it matters to me, but it matters to you, and you learned something. THAT (along with my own edification) makes it worthwhile for me to be here.

Well that, and the occasional comedic troll-fiasco.

[edit on 12/14/07 by The Axeman]

reply to post by Rockpuck


No one has stated or claimed that blue lodges donate a million a day - at least I know that I have not. I have said masonry donates $1 million a day, although I acknowledge the number is actually much higher. When I say "masonry" I mean just that: masons, their lodges, and the rites. Much of what we do is not quantified in money anyways - spending time with war vets, or in children's homes. If we were to demand to be paid for our time at the rates our jobs pay us, it would be tens of millions a day. Again, all of this does not actually matter to me because the essential point is that for me - and for most masons I know - masonry is concurrently both a fraternity and a nexus to contribute to our community.

The Grand Lodges - considering there are quite a few of them - do contribute a substantial amount of their receipts to charity. Its all available on their public balance sheets. At least from what I found when I googled. If we wanted to accurately account for what the real amount is that masons give per day in terms of time AND money, it would be exceedingly large. But again - the point is not what the number is, just that it is done.

[edit on 14-12-2007 by LightinDarkness]

reply to post by LightinDarkness


Just for the record, I meant no offense by my post; I just hate that figure (or any figures) being thrown around in Masonry's name -- even if it's on a GL website -- still don't like it.

Our charity -- personal and as a group -- should be anonymous and private; not bandied about like we expect a pat on the back.

Again, nothing personal, brother.



[edit on 12/14/07 by The Axeman]

reply to post by The Axeman


No offense taken. I agree that it doesn't really matter, and that the $1 million figure is inaccurate. I should not have used it, as I do know better. Just wasn't thinking at the time. You right right - we do not do charity as a PR effort, so it doesn't really matter what the number is.

It seems as though this thread has come full circle. From charity numbers to racist lodges to the worst of anti-masons (whom are now banned), but I think we've all learned something here. I know I have.

reply to post by kozmo


Kozmo, I truly enjoy when a person who has perceived our institution in an unfavorable light because of misperceptions or lack of insight can reconfigure their opinion when presented with an open and honest dialouge. It is refreshing to hear people like yourself and Tetragramton arrive at this position through a civil discourse with the Brethern and adopt a more accepting attitude toward our great institution.

[edit on 14-12-2007 by AugustusMasonicus]

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the "secrecy" part of masonry really head-off a bastardization or secularization of its teachings? I would see that as the biggest threat.

All the old religions were mystery religions: they had "outer teachings" for those with no real interest, and then the real stuff was only taught to initiates of the tradition, basically the only thing changing is the interpretation of the teachings, which becomes more rich and complex. Really what you learn, isn't something I can really see as being something you could just sit down and talk about with someone who hasn't already been exposed to the same things, because of how ineffective day-to-day language is. Things could easily be misconstrued and lose their meaning before they're even correctly taught.

reply to post by bsbray11

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the "secrecy" part of masonry really head-off a bastardization or secularization of its teachings? I would see that as the biggest threat.

Not sure what ya mean mate.. perhaps if you could word it differently?

All the old religions were mystery religions: they had "outer teachings" for those with no real interest, and then the real stuff was only taught to initiates of the tradition

Not exactly. Most of the real old religions where mythological, or fabled stories .. the actual meaning was rarely held secret.. Christianity is the only religion I can think of that did that, because most religions of old where oral, they where passed down. The priest, priestess of old religions sometimes held special schools of thought, like for instance the Druidic religions of Celtic Europe, but even that which was probably the most complex religious system that held its priest at different levels. For instance, some where medicine men, some where legal experts, some dealt with farming, and others soley with problems between individuals in the community. All held some information to the mystic aspects of the religion as a method of conservation .. as it was oral, and not written down.

basically the only thing changing is the interpretation of the teachings, which becomes more rich and complex. Really what you learn, isn't something I can really see as being something you could just sit down and talk about with someone who hasn't already been exposed to the same things, because of how ineffective day-to-day language is.

I think I follow you........

Correct me if I am wrong..

You are implying that the secret of Freemasonry is an experience, not a word, a signal, a handshake, but instead what each individual finds within him self in the process of true initiation, and that this experience cannot be described in words... because..

The secret of Freemasonry is different for every man.



Well if that is not what you meant, that is what I mean. All the Brethren will agree with it to.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
You are implying that the secret of Freemasonry is an experience, not a word, a signal, a handshake, but instead what each individual finds within him self in the process of true initiation, and that this experience cannot be described in words...

I'm not a freemason, but having experienced things personally that cause what you say to sound very familiar to me, I'll say this is what I'm talking about, and the impression that I get is that the freemasons aim for the very same thing. And apparently you agree.

So then what I was trying to express in my last post, was the idea that trying to break this stuff down into the stuff of casual conversation, especially with people who have no experience with it, is never satisfactory and something vital is always lost. It's a real crime in a way, you know? Maybe the secrecy is an attempt to force everyone through the actual rituals and formalities, that apparently are more effective.

Most of the real old religions where mythological, or fabled stories .. the actual meaning was rarely held secret.. Christianity is the only religion I can think of that did that

I also think of the Greek and Roman mythologies (not to mention the smaller cults, like Pythagoras'), and ancient Indian/Hindu mythology, Phoenician, Babylonian, etc. There the gods are all also conceptual archetypes, and the "fables" involving them are perhaps not much different than parables from the Bible in their design, only for other cultures and times. Egyptian mythology is another example that comes to mind, with Ra and his actions in their stories and body parts all being richly symbolic. There were also deaths and resurrections in Egyptian mythology, and virgin births. And just before Christianity was mystic Judaism, and the Kabbalah and all of that.


Kind of unrelated, kind of not, but has anyone ever read Plato's allegory of the cave?

reply to post by bsbray11



I've read Plato's allegory, infact I had to read the entire The Republic - 'tis the bane of all philosophy majors.

Yes I can see how this is going to lead you to the "many paths, one God" doctrine that has swung into fashion now. Part of the problem with claiming that this is true is that many of these faiths were jealously independent and rejected any external influence on their theology with great fervor. That they end up using methods that are at the surface similar to other religions tells us nothing except that there is nothing new under the sun. Of course, at a closer examination all of these "similarities" fall apart very quickly.

How did we get onto this from the OP?!

reply to post by bsbray11


Plato's allegory of the cave.. prisoners captive in a cave who couldnt see the sun light entering the cave, once freed never wanted to go back to the cave but did because he felt the need to save his fellows.

Been a long time since I read it, back in a philosophy class about 2 years ago. That is all I remember of it.

Mostly we studied the Republic.. and not much else of Plato's.

Originally posted by bsbray11

So then what I was trying to express in my last post, was the idea that trying to break this stuff down into the stuff of casual conversation, especially with people who have no experience with it, is never satisfactory and something vital is always lost. It's a real crime in a way, you know? Maybe the secrecy is an attempt to force everyone through the actual rituals and formalities, that apparently are more effective.

I think thats the original idea of "mystery school style" secret levels. Some things cant be taught by written word, they have to be experienced.
Prematurely knowing the written-version of some "level" could be a turn-off to the actual experience.

Thats why I am one of those that are not entirely happy that all the secrets of many different societies can easily be found on the Internet.

reply to post by LightinDarkness


LOL.. Masonic threads.. one original topic 100 sub topics! I have never seen a Masonic thread cover only one topic.

Originally posted by LightinDarkness
Part of the problem with claiming that this is true is that many of these faiths were jealously independent and rejected any external influence on their theology with great fervor.

But to say this, you have to generalize. One can point out disharmonious actions coming from people who supposedly "believe in" all number of things. What makes the difference is not the teaching but how it's being received.

That they end up using methods that are at the surface similar

I didn't mean to imply that any of those gods or teachings were very similar to each other on the surface.

reply to post by The Oak



If you are a Christian then you should have your doubts. Nothing that Jesus ever did was in secrecy, in fact he specifically pointed out that he did not keep secrets. That whisper that they do in their "brotherens" ear is symbolic of how the devil is constantly trying to trick us.

Then they want to accuse me of having a tin foil hat because I am religous? You don't have to become a freemason to honor your grandfather and father. God gave us freewill already and that is the most important gift that he did give to us besides his sacrafice so that he could pay for our sins. You don't have to earn your way into heaven! SUPRISE!
Please realize that God was on a mission when he sent Jesus here to save us, that he also sent Jesus here to show us the correct way and to lead by example! It's hard to be strong in today's society but we must choose to follow in our fathers footsteps and to never give in! Talk to God and stay away from the enticing secret society of connections. Anyway, I cannot save you, only Jesus can and you are already saved, if you choose to be.

reply to post by Rockpuck



There is nothing funny at all about Baphomet or Freemasonry at all. It should be completely abolished and one day it will be!

Secret societies only lead to control and corruption and you know that!

Originally posted by coven
reply to post by Remmyjones

 

Man... This dude is DESPERATE to berate the masons, eh?

There's no desperation when you believe in the almighty and what he has done for us when he himself provoked and beaten the devil. It's not always easy to follow my Lord and savior but I will do my very best to follow his example.

[edit on 15-12-2007 by spirit7]

Originally posted by spirit7
reply to post by Rockpuck

 

There is nothing funny at all about Baphomet or Freemasonry at all. It should be completely abolished and one day it will be!

Good thing you have such an open view point towards topics. I would hate to see you spout bigoted, paranoid and fascist rhetoric. Hopefully you continue to approach all things in life with such embracing consideration.

Originally posted by spirit7
reply to post by The Oak

 

Then they want to accuse me of having a tin foil hat because I am religous?

No. Because you use religion as a cover for your "tin foil hat". And because you act as if you personally have the ear of the Almighty to the exclusion of everyone else who doesn't act as you do. That's a sin too, bubba! One of the Deadlies IIRC.

Yours is the sort of self-righteous, self-serving antagonism that brings us strife between religions rather than doing as Masonry does in acting from the Centre and appealing to the central tenets of the World's religions which exhort men to live in peace and harmony with his brothers. But you wouldn't know that because YOU have Masonry figured out and no matter how pious a Mason is, you just KNOW that in his heart, he's really praying to Beelzebub or Baphomet or somesuch, right?. This despite never darkening the doors of a Lodge. Idiots like you just send me.

It's the small-minded likes of you that reveled in the "Troubles" in Northern Ireland rather than looking for a way to live together. And that was between Christians!

In this season of Peace, you counsel the path of War. Nice!

Originally posted by spirit7
You don't have to become a freemason to honor your grandfather and father.

About the only thing you've ever posted that I can agree with. But being a parent is also about hoping that your child will someday avoid your mistakes and repeat your triumphs and to that end, a Freemason father hoping his son will someday join a Lodge alongside him is a pretty human characteristic.

[edit on 15-12-2007 by Fitzgibbon]

Originally posted by spirit7

Originally posted by coven
reply to post by Remmyjones

 

Man... This dude is DESPERATE to berate the masons, eh?

There's no desperation when you believe in the almighty and what he has done for us when he himself provoked and beaten the devil. It's not always easy to follow my Lord and savior but I will do my very best to follow his example.

Are you really this clueless in real life or is this just an Internet persona? Did you even see the malignant, ignorant posts that the guy was posting? Do you wish that Masons as a whole should burn to death? And that was just the tip of the iceberg with that multi-named individual.

Because if that's what you subscribe to, you need help. If not and you're just posting out your sphincter not knowing that that was what the person Remmyjones was referring to was countenancing, then I suggest you buy a clue. Quickly.

[edit on 15-12-2007 by Fitzgibbon]