Do Not Watch This Video...

Originally posted by NewWorldOver

Originally posted by LightinDarkness
There are a very few of those people who got in debt beyond their control (medical reasons, things like that), but the majority do so because they BUY THINGS THEY CANNOT AFFORD.

Absolutely ludicrous.

I have heard too many stories of well-balanced, good people who had their finances mapped out to the T... losing everything because of one stay at the hospital.

The fact that you two can sit in here and talk about the average citizen like they don't DESERVE to have a WORKING monetary system makes me sick.

For every person who is bankrupt and un-deserving, you throw your hands up and declare that 'OH EVERYONE is just BAD WITH MONEY'.

It's disgusting how some of us are so thoroughly trained to BLAME OURSELVES and BLAME OTHERS for the problems of a system designed by satanists and illuminists. Yeah... it's our fault because we buy things we can't afford. That's why we can hardly afford to feed ourselves and pay rent every month. WE're just too STUPID to keep inflation down

Would you also agree that... maybe money is just a BAD thing to equate with life?

It is apparent the tin-foil hat conspiracy theorists in here can't even be bothered to actually form opinions on facts and data. When I present you with RESEARCH that shows you wrong, you claim its all part of some vast conspiracy! LOL! Watch this: YOUR part of a conspiracy to place blame on the government for your own inability to handle money.

FACT: Only 1.8 million people (of a population of 300 MILLION) are paid minimum wage. Of those, over ONE HALF are teenagers (they aren't living on their own and their family is supporting them). Of those half, over ONE HALF live in families making over twice the poverty line.

Wetch, F. (2003). Minimum wage legislation in the United States. Economic Inquiry,

But I won't let facts get in the way of your obvious ideology. Keep blaming a vast conspiracy on your inability to deal with your own finances. I worked for minimum wage for years, and worked a LOW PAYING RETAIL JOB FOR 5 YEARS. You know what I was doing while I was working two full time jobs? Getting two college degrees, and am now being paid nicely to get a graduate degree. Too bad I didn't blame my finances on a global conspiracy, else I wouldn't have ever done anything to FIX MY OWN SITUATION.

Your part of a global conspiracy to take away personal responsibility. Prove me wrong.

Originally posted by indierockalien
Here's a conspiracy for ya.

Very simple really...

In this day and age, money = life.

We aren't God. Somebody has fooled us.

because in REALITY, money = death.

because in REALITY, our "money" is just an IOU... a DEBT. If you refuse to pay the debt, your life is ruined, you go to jail... end up on the street, die of starvation.... debt, death, deaf.... coincidence these words all sound so similar?

Death - the end of life

debt - owing money/life

deaf- the inability to hear (the truth about life?) (inability to truly live?)

You don't need economics class to fit the pieces together. It's a scam, and we owe our lives to the scammers now. Isn't that nice? and we've got plenty of people kissing the feet of the system, perpetuating the shuffle of those big smelly feet, because they have been taught to fear a future without it.

Absolutely correct. Star for you.

There are masses of people who believe money is the only way. Currency is a GOOD thing - but the money system we are living under is designed to collapse and destroy our lives.

Originally posted by LightinDarkness
It is apparent the tin-foil hat conspiracy theorists in here can't even be bothered to actually form opinions on facts and data.

You've already shared your opinion and have thoroughly convinced us that you're not on our side. You're on big moneys side. You are with the Federal Reserve and the IRS. You think it is the average americans fault for living under a failing economy

Your opinion is more laughable here than you could ever attempt to make out of us 'tin-foil hat conspiracy theorists'. Good lord, man. Are you aware what message board you are on? Or are you really that loyal to your all-mighty dollar that you would come in here and throw that term around.

reply to post by LightinDarkness

YOUR part of a conspiracy to place blame on the government for your own inability to handle money.

What evidence can you provide that I am unable to handle money? Once again your statements reek of the very ingonorance that only proves the effectiveness of the conspiracy being brought down upon the American working-class. Your ignorance is proof of the effectiveness of the disinformation campaign that you in-turn perpetuate.

FACT: Only 1.8 million people (of a population of 300 MILLION) are paid minimum wage. Of those, over ONE HALF are teenagers (they aren't living on their own and their family is supporting them). Of those half, over ONE HALF live in families making over twice the poverty line.

Thank you for proving that statistcs are slanted and manipulated to perpetuate the very myths which you endorse. You have interjected your own false assumption under the banner of "fact." This proves that you are unable to view facts objectively, and that you are emotionally biased without the ability to exercise true critical thinking. Just because a teen is living with their family does not equate to being supported by their family. Working teens are all-to-often saddled with the burden of supporting or helping to support their family, and will never be able to move out on their own. They have to drop out of high school to put food on the table, and then people like you blame them for making bad decisions.

I am by no means endorsing government handouts to people who are unwilling to help themselves, but there is no excuse to have a class of "working poor." Furthermore, having a class of working poor is a relatively recent development in America, proving once again that conditions are worsening. Those who believe in "an honest day's work for an honest day's pay," now find themselves doing two days of work for half a day's pay.

Don't even get me started on the poverty line either. Could you survive on $10,294 dollars this year? And keep in mind that if you make a single dollar more you are not poor any longer.

Since you seem to think that I have pulled my opinions out of thin air for some reason, I will provide a sample of the sort of information that I come across time and time again in my research.

The following quotes were found here:

One in five children in the U.S. lives in poverty. Research has shown that the share of children who will experience poverty at some point in their lives is closer to 40 percent, because families move in and out of poverty over time. The United States has the highest child poverty rate of 18 industrialized nations, according to a United Nations survey. One reason is that America also has the lowest government benefits to families with poor children.

In her recently published book, It Takes a Nation, Rebecca Blank considers the poverty problem in the United States and what can be done about it. One of her main findings is that job creation in the 1990s has not cut into poverty the way it did in the 1960s. The "stagnation of wages at the lower end of the wage spectrum is preventing employment gains from reducing poverty rates," says Blank, who is chief economist for the Council of Economic Advisors. Recent increases in the minimum wage will "help some, but exactly how much is hard to predict" A substantial number of the working poor in America already earn the minimum wage

[edit on 12/11/0707 by jackinthebox]

The insanity is too much. I post facts and you just say they are lies - I cite my sources, where are yours? I have proved my point, if you disagree you should find sources to the contrary.

Oh, and heres a hint: when we take a census we know peoples family incomes - HOW IS IT that half of those teens making minimum wage are living in families that gross over 3 times poverty level? They need to support their parents when they are making 300% above poverty? Nice try.

reply to post by LightinDarkness

FACT: Only 1.8 million people (of a population of 300 MILLION) are paid minimum wage. Of those, over ONE HALF are teenagers (they aren't living on their own and their family is supporting them). Of those half, over ONE HALF live in families making over twice the poverty line.

Oh, and heres a hint: when we take a census we know peoples family incomes - HOW IS IT that half of those teens making minimum wage are living in families that gross over 3 times poverty level? They need to support their parents when they are making 300% above poverty? Nice try.

Well which is it? Twice the poverty level, or three times the poverty line? Be careful, your Disinformation Agent badge is showing.

You can't even keep your own facts straight, why should I let you butcher my sources with lies. Besides, I did post a source anyway, that you chose not to refute with data.

How do you get that a working teen is supporting their parents? As if the parents are just sitting around telling their kids to drop out of school so they don't have to work themselves. You are ignoring the fact that the teen is contributing to the total family income. Perhaps to help feed siblings that are too young to work. A family living on $30,000 in a year is hardly doing well. The fact that the "official" poverty line is placed so low is further proof that the sytem is being manipulated intentionally. A family surviving on 30 grand a year still can't afford medical coverage, school supplies, unexpected little expenses like a 40% spike in their winter heating bill, etc. Lastly, you are also ignoring the detriment to our society when we now rely on our children to contribute to the family income.

How can you not see the pattern? Men, women, children. The Great Depression and WWII made slaves of men. Then the bankers lowered the boom further. They wanted the women now, and spun the "women's lib" movement leaving the kids to raise themselves. Now the children are being enslaved. Teenagers should be working for their future, not because their parents can no longer support the household through no fault of their own.

[edit on 12/11/0707 by jackinthebox]

[edit on 12/11/0707 by jackinthebox]

Originally posted by jackinthebox
Well which is it? Twice the poverty level, or three times the poverty line? Be careful, your Disinformation Agent badge is showing.

Be careful, your "I dont know how to add up numbers and this is probably a reason why I like to blame a global conspiracy on my financial problems" badge is showing. One half of one half = 25%, that leaves 50% of the rest of the teens employed. 75% of them are working while being in families making two or three times the poverty level. I know, numbers are hard. Don't think about it too much, your brain might explode. You can't even offer facts, because you have none. You know the minute you post your sources you'll be exposed for your lies. You cant refute any of my sources.

In the end, you can blame a cabal of international bankers for the fact that Americans buy stuff they cant afford. When they do so, they go in debt. That's called being stupid. Not everyone is in debt, some of us actually work more than one job, went to school, and made something of out of our lives. We don't blame an evil cabal, we recognized we are in control of our own life and did something to get out of it. I'm sorry that makes you mad.

You keep thinking the world is coming to an end and blaming a global conspiracy for the fact that you buy stuff you cannot afford. And I'll keep on laughing at you. I see the lunacy of this discussion has reached the point to where you are incapable of carrying on a coherent argument, so I will let you post again using your same tried tactics and let you claim that you've "won" - it will be painfully obvious that you've lost, but this is a waste of my time and Im ok with letting the little people think they've won occasionally. I'm out.


[edit on 11-12-2007 by LightinDarkness]

reply to post by LightinDarkness

You keep thinking the world is coming to an end and blaming a global conspiracy for the fact that you buy stuff you cannot afford.

How would you know what I can and cannot afford, or what I buy? I'm happy for you that you're getting your PhD, but this does not make you special, it just means you're lucky. And just because you've had to work hard to get where you are, doesn't mean that no one else works hard because they don't have a degree. For someone who is supposedly "educated" I am dumbfounded that you still believe poverty is the fault of the people who are in poverty. I suppose Africans starve because they are lazy? I learned the facts about poverty in my first year of college.

It is true though, people do buy things that they cannot afford here in America. They whip out the old credit card and pay for things like electricity or heating oil or maybe even a hospital bill after they were shot in the head at work during a robbery.


I'll be back...

[edit on 12/11/0707 by jackinthebox]

reply to post by LightinDarkness

75% of them are working while being in families making two or three times the poverty level.

Again I ask you, which is it? Two or three times the poverty level?

Originally posted by jackinthebox
reply to post by LightinDarkness

 

You keep thinking the world is coming to an end and blaming a global conspiracy for the fact that you buy stuff you cannot afford.

How would you know what I can and cannot afford, or what I buy?

It seems perfectly clear to me that LightinDarkness paints his own picture of people in financial crisis.

They are stupid. They buy things they can't afford. They don't know how to handle their finances.

That kind of attitude is exactly the kind of self-defeating, hate-your-neighbor, blame-yourself and everyone around you attitude that keeps this system in order.

'I got mine. Where is yours? Oh you must be to stupid to hang onto your money...'

reply to post by NewWorldOver

A survey done by Michigan State University found that a slight majority of American households with annual incomes of $70,000 or more believed that the two principal problems of poverty are lack of work ethic and a minimum wage that is too low. -Wikipedia

I think some affluence is stinking up this thread with ignorance.



[edit on 12/11/0707 by jackinthebox]

Poverty is one of America's most persistent and serious problems. The United States produces more per capita than any other industrialized country, and in recent years has devoted more than $500 billion per year, or about 12 percent of its gross national product, to public assistance and social insurance programs like Social Security, Medicare, Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC), food stamps, and Medicaid. Despite our wealth and these efforts to reduce income inequality, poverty is more prevalent in the United States than in most of the rest of the industrialized world. It is also more prevalent now than it was in the early seventies, when the incidence of poverty in America reached a post-war low. According to the Census Bureau, 33.6 million Americans were poor in 1990, almost 14 percent of the population. - from "Poverty in the United States" by Isabel V. Sawhill, the Library of Economics and Liberty, the Concise Encyclopedia of Economics

Here is proof that poverty is increasing. Here is more proof that the system is terminally flawed.

$500 billion a year (12%GNP) is being spent now to fool Americans that poverty is not getting worse, instead of using that money to create actual jobs. Depite all the money being spent to "fix" the statistics, the US is still taking the lead in poverty among industrialized nations. Hmm...what's wrong with this picture?

I think it is very important for everyone to see the video linked above. Please keep this thread alive.

After watching, please drop a quick post. Even just a few sentences to share your opinion of it.

As you can see, it sparked a quite lively discussion once already. However, I came under personal attack which has nothing to do with topic.
So please post in a manner condusive to determining the truth, whatever your opinion of the presentation may be. Opinions are fine, facts are better, but I think we all see how an debate can become terminally flawed in a spiral of pointless argument. Flawed logic based on pre-conceived notions does not prove or disprove anything.

reply to post by LightinDarkness


JUst one question smart guy.....people do spend irresponsibly but is that the case in every scenario? What about the rediculously high interest rates? Can you justify those? And can you explain the reasoning behind it?
how do high interest rates help a person who needs to borrow money in the first place for a house or car or something else they need?
They obviously couldnt afford it in the firstplace but do need it in some way and are now punished by being forced to pay 18% sometimes 23, 27, and even 30 % !!!! It would be madness if you justified that behavior...thats what jack is saying here i think. There are some reasonable situations where borrowing money is the only way to obtain a life need.... and just because of that fact we are punished by being forced to pay high interest rates so the fat cats can make money off of your misfortunes. This makes us all subdued and forces us to work and live for the money we owe and not for our own lives.....you can blame economic misfortunes on these institutions because they dont make it any easier for a citizen to work themselves out of a hole. They just make it worse with the fees, interest rates, BS credit scoring system etc...

The reason that loan-sharking became illegal is because the person giving the loan charged interest, ususally at a high rate.

Now we see that it had nothing to do with protecting citizens, it was a move by bankers to corner the market.

reply to post by NewWorldOver


Thats exactly what im talkin about!! GOod show!
WE have to work together and cant only point a finger and say "you arent doing enough!" to someone who is down and out....if they bought a corvette and only make 20k a year than yes, that is retarded beyond beleif. But what about a regular 2006 malibu, nothin fancy....why should i pay 17% on that loan? I have a steady job, have been making payments on other loans and credit cards.....does wells fargo actually need the extra 7 or so percent additional to the prime rate from my pockets!? ITS GREED AND THATS ALL IT IS>>>>WAKE UP PEOPLE!!

reply to post by jackinthebox


But if loansharking is still illegal than which precinct can i call to have the entire board of wells fargo and sears mastercard arrested??

LOL Jackinthebox, someone showing you data that proves you wrong is now personal attacks. Whats most amusing is your "defense" (ie, ignoring the data) was personally attacking me. And you wonder why no one responds to you except the one or two tin foil hat people who believe you. :down: Ignored.

Originally posted by GUICE2JUst one question smart guy.....people do spend irresponsibly but is that the case in every scenario? What about the rediculously high interest rates? Can you justify those? And can you explain the reasoning behind it?
how do high interest rates help a person who needs to borrow money in the first place for a house or car or something else they need?

Did it occur to you that banks do not simply make up interest rates? I don't know about you, but I am not paying 18, 23, 27 or even 30 (!!!) percent interest on any loans I have. Of course I have few loans because I don't buy stuff I can't afford, but the loans I do have are mostly in the form of student loans locked in at 3% interest. Anyone who is paying 17-30% on loan products has such a horrible credit profile that the bank has determined they have a high risk of defaulting. People with good credit are not paying those interest rates. And by the way - there is nothing saying you have to pay them - just (I since a theme) buy stuff you can afford.

There is no reason you should have to borrow money to live if you can budget. True, "acts of god" circumstances may come up now and then and that is why you build good credit and get yourself a credit card with 6 or 7% fixed rates. What - your credit sucks and you cant budget? Then you pay for it.

Oh, and you don't want to pay any fees, eh? I can fix that for you too. Pay as you agreed to when you signed up for the loan product. BAM! No fees. AMAZING!

reply to post by LightinDarkness


Im sorry but you are a little dilusional....im not purchasing corvettes and large screen tvs every week on credit. I had a credit card when i was in college that i used to purchase things i needed. Yet at that age i wasnt educated on the ways of the credit card as most youngster arent (can you blame us for it?) and these companies know that which is why they set up these tables outside of college buidlings offering free t shirts and stuff if you sign up for a card. So just because we didnt know the full implications of our actions means that we should be punished with high interest rates? Its not about your credit history or score anymore because of the ongoing credit crunch....i had a long conversation with a rep from capital one yesterday and thats exactly what he said. it doesnt matter if you have never missed a payment and can show you can make the current payment for a loan term....the standards are so unbeleivably high right now that for someone who has had trouble in the past, they are in a situation currently where it will be impossible to get out of making minimum payments that are astronomical because of the interest rate. We are all on the same page here buddy....but the fact remains that the same guy applying for a loan 5 or 10 years ago with the same credit history will not get approved in todays economy but would have back then. That again is directly from a manager over at capital one who i was discussing a auto loan refinance with. Its not so black and white dude, there is a gray area....i mean come on.