Why do people support so many unconstitutional programs?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul


ah, so you're going to say a lack of healthcare is a good thing?
sorry, it's not really a matter of opinion that having ready access to healthcare

Ready access to healthcare? There are hospitals, quick care clinics, doctors, and ER's in every city. More people have insurance than those that do not.

Why should those of us responsible enough to provide our own health insurance be forced to pay for the losers that cant?

also...education is a part of the general welfare, that's just common sense.

Surely you can back this up with proof correct?

can't make any laws that turn massive numbers of people into criminals, it's unconstitutional.

Huh?

reply to post by slackerwire


I was actually surprised by what I found. It was much broader than I expected. I post the discussion from US v. Butler, 297 U.S. 1, 65-67 (1936). The text says that the only limit on the clause is what Congress chooses not to fund. It's a good read; it discusses Hamilton and Story's views on the subject. The only judicial check is that the scope of the application must actually be national.

Again, we agree that these spending programs are poor public policy, but that does not mean that Congress can't be stupid. If they're consistently good at anything, it's usually that.

[edit on 12/10/2007 by Togetic]

Originally posted by slackerwire
Ready access to healthcare? There are hospitals, quick care clinics, doctors, and ER's in every city. More people have insurance than those that do not.

Why should those of us responsible enough to provide our own health insurance be forced to pay for the losers that cant?

because those "losers" tend to be the working poor that put in ridiculous amounts of hours to scrounge up a measly living.

or maybe because you have a shred of human decency in you..

Surely you can back this up with proof correct?

...an education is required for any job with any sort of livable income.

Huh?

you can't make laws that turn a significant portion of the population into criminals. it's unconstitutional.
the proposed actions in this thread would do so.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul


because those "losers" tend to be the working poor that put in ridiculous amounts of hours to scrounge up a measly living.

Not my, nor anyone elses problem they made poor career choices.

or maybe because you have a shred of human decency in you..

How about you stick to being compassionate with your own money and stop supporting policies which would involve thrusting YOUR morals on everyone elses wallet?

...an education is required for any job with any sort of livable income.

Yea, because every pro football player is 100% literate right?

you can't make laws that turn a significant portion of the population into criminals. it's unconstitutional.
the proposed actions in this thread would do so.

Which actions would those be?

If some of our politicians don't like universal healthcare then they should give theirs up and pay for their own healthcare, but they wouldn't like that now would they.
And if your having that much of a problem with welfare programs then stop paying your taxes.

[edit on 12-12-2007 by UScitizen]

Originally posted by slackerwire
Not my, nor anyone elses problem they made poor career choices.

it's not always an issues of career choice, sometimes it's an issue of circumstance. OFTEN it's an issue of circumstance.

there are middle class families that can't spare the money for healthcare in this country.

How about you stick to being compassionate with your own money and stop supporting policies which would involve thrusting YOUR morals on everyone elses wallet?

then, by your logic, spending on the military involves thrusting other people's morals on my wallet.

how about we cut half of our redunkulous military spending and put it towards healthcare? wouldn't cost you an extra dime, and we wouldn't need to weaken our military to do it

Yea, because every pro football player is 100% literate right?

this isn't even an argument, it's an unabashed stereotype.

Which actions would those be?

My proposals: Any politician who proposes or votes to pass any legislation which goes against the Constitution is immediately taken out of office, and charged with treason.

this could make hundreds of people into criminals right off the bat, and many many more if it becomes retroactive.

Anyone who is on welfare, SSI, or any other social assistance program loses their right to vote until they are off said program. The last thing we need is more people voting for politicians who promise them more of our money.
Disclaimer: People whine about not being able to take the right to vote away from others, I only need remind them that convicted felons lose their right to vote as well.

as you aptly pointed out, we'd be putting these people in the same status as criminals, punishing them for no reason.

and are you aware that many people on welfare programs actually work their way out of it?
a good example of this is my family, which would have starved if not for a welfare program. my father worked 2 jobs (3 if you count being a TA a job) while studying for his masters and PHD, my mother worked 1 job, yet we still couldn't pay for everything so we were on foodstamps for a while.

now my family is in a much better position and off the program.

these people that you say are just taking your money often contribute to society.

Originally posted by slackerwire

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul


because those "losers" tend to be the working poor that put in ridiculous amounts of hours to scrounge up a measly living.

Not my, nor anyone elses problem they made poor career choices.

Ok smart guy, if everyone is a Doctor or a Lawyer then please tell me who will fill the shelves at stores? Who will clean the hospital the doctors work in? Who will do the paper work? Who will clean the streets, pick up garbage, run gas stations, walk the grounds of the hospital as a security guard to make sure patients aren't robbed as they leave the building?

So, again, if everyone is a lawyer or a doctor who will cook the food in the hospital? Who will wait tables at the restaurant?

See smart guy, not everyone can be a doctor or lawyer and make millions a year. You need these people, probably far more than you know. Imagine going to buy groceries and oh, nothing on the shelf, you go to next one and... None. No truck drivers cause everyone is a lawyer or a doctor so no product was delivered. And no one is there to take the product from the back and put it on shelves. What are you going to do? Hunt and scavange for food?

Of course there isn't any food because there are no farmers, they're all doctors and lawyers now. And no drinks because the factory workers are now doctors and lawyers.

See? Not everyone can be a doctor or a lawyer. Not everyone can make millions a year, you need people to do these jobs. So either pay them more or give them assitance.

Actually, pay them more would probably work better. The more money people have the more likely they are to spend it. So the more money they have, the more they spend, the more they buy, the better the economy does...

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul




there are middle class families that can't spare the money for healthcare in this country.

That isnt my, nor any other taxpayers responsibility. Perhaps they shouldnt have started a family if they were unable to provide for it.

then, by your logic, spending on the military involves thrusting other people's morals on my wallet.

You believe national defense is a moral issue? If so, there is no further need for debate with you

how about we cut half of our redunkulous military spending and put it towards healthcare? wouldn't cost you an extra dime, and we wouldn't need to weaken our military to do it

Constitutional vs Unconstitutional.

this could make hundreds of people into criminals right off the bat, and many many more if it becomes retroactive.

Hate to break it to you junior, but that happens EVERY time a law is passed.

as you aptly pointed out, we'd be putting these people in the same status as criminals, punishing them for no reason.

Status means nothing. People who are on the public dime shouldnt have the opportunity to vote politicians into office who promise to give them more of our money.

a good example of this is my family, which would have starved if not for a welfare program. my father worked 2 jobs (3 if you count being a TA a job) while studying for his masters and PHD, my mother worked 1 job, yet we still couldn't pay for everything so we were on foodstamps for a while.

Perhaps your parents should have made more responsible choices in life, such as not starting a family until they could afford to support it.



[edit on 13-12-2007 by Crakeur]

Originally posted by HHH Is King


Ok smart guy, if everyone is a Doctor or a Lawyer then please tell me who will fill the shelves at stores? Who will clean the hospital the doctors work in? Who will do the paper work? Who will clean the streets, pick up garbage, run gas stations, walk the grounds of the hospital as a security guard to make sure patients aren't robbed as they leave the building?

Why do you assume everyone WANTS to be a doctor? Why do you assume everyone is intelligent enough to be an attorney? Lets face it, the majority of people in this nation are just plain stupid. Some people are born with no purpose in life other than cleaning toilets or asking if I want fries.

Originally posted by slackerwire

Originally posted by HHH Is King


Ok smart guy, if everyone is a Doctor or a Lawyer then please tell me who will fill the shelves at stores? Who will clean the hospital the doctors work in? Who will do the paper work? Who will clean the streets, pick up garbage, run gas stations, walk the grounds of the hospital as a security guard to make sure patients aren't robbed as they leave the building?

Why do you assume everyone WANTS to be a doctor? Why do you assume everyone is intelligent enough to be an attorney? Lets face it, the majority of people in this nation are just plain stupid. Some people are born with no purpose in life other than cleaning toilets or asking if I want fries.

And the question still is why not pay them enough so they won't need assistance? I'll tell you why they don't get paid enough it's because of greed. See some people are so lazy they need other people to bust their butts so they can be wealthy while paying them crap. And like I said before if you don't like the assistance people get then STOP PAYING YOUR TAXES!!! Or you could go live in another country that doesn't have a welfare system.

Originally posted by UScitizen

And the question still is why not pay them enough so they won't need assistance? I'll tell you why they don't get paid enough it's because of greed. See some people are so lazy they need other people to bust their butts so they can be wealthy while paying them crap. And like I said before if you don't like the assistance people get then STOP PAYING YOUR TAXES!!! Or you could go live in another country that doesn't have a welfare system.

How many businesses do you own? How many employees do you have? How much do you pay them?

And still avoiding the question. If everyone is a doctor or a lawyer, who will do the grunt work? Not everyone can be a doctor or a lawyer, you need cooks, janitors, stock boys, truck drivers, cashiers, farmers, so forth. Without them the country wouldn't work.

So, either stop bitching about people who do the hard work being on assitance cause they aren't paid enough or stop using the services they provide.

Don't you like that though? He thinks this stuff is done by magic or something. The food is magically grown, magically processed, magically sent to the stores, and magically shelved. No one needs to do these things, we don't need farmers, factory workers, truck drivers, stock boys. Everyone should go to college and be doctors or lawyers and make millions... Not rely on welfare because they do the grunt work but aren't paid for the hard labor they do.

Originally posted by HHH Is King
And still avoiding the question. If everyone is a doctor or a lawyer, who will do the grunt work? Not everyone can be a doctor or a lawyer, you need cooks, janitors, stock boys, truck drivers, cashiers, farmers, so forth. Without them the country wouldn't work.

Evidently reading comprehension isnt your strong suit. I already answered your question, and posed one to you as well. Incidentally, you didnt answer it in your little rambling statement there.

You answered nothing. Just said people are stupid and can't be lawyers.

Again, stop buying food and start hunting for it if you don't like that the guy who sells you the food is on welfare because his job doesn't pay enough.

Although, the bullets, the gun, the hunting license, all produced by people who aren't millionaires. So you're going to have to sharpen a stick with a rock and hunt down the animals the hard way if you are to avoid using any services of the so called unclean as you see them.

Originally posted by HHH Is King
You answered nothing. Just said people are stupid and can't be lawyers.

Again, stop buying food and start hunting for it if you don't like that the guy who sells you the food is on welfare because his job doesn't pay enough.

Although, the bullets, the gun, the hunting license, all produced by people who aren't millionaires. So you're going to have to sharpen a stick with a rock and hunt down the animals the hard way if you are to avoid using any services of the so called unclean as you see them.

Ok I take it back. Reading comprehension isnt your problem. Lack of intelligence is.

Originally posted by slackerwire
That isnt my, nor any other taxpayers responsibility. Perhaps they shouldnt have started a family if they were unable to provide for it.

ah, but many of these families used to have healthcare before their employers cut the benefits.

You believe national defense is a moral issue? If so, there is no further need for debate with you, I cannot jam my head as far up my ass as you have yours to make it an even debate.

ad hom (which i've reported to the mods) and i just need to point something out:
how does someone defend a nation using a 25 megaton warhead?

we spend more on our military than is necessary
in fact, we probably spend several times what is necessary for national defense because our military is no longer something for national defense but instead for the enforcement of our militaristic semi-imperialism in small countries that can't properly defend themselves using the arms that we sold them...

Constitutional vs Unconstitutional.

not talking about constitutionality on that point, and you've yet to prove how healthcare isn't part of the general welfare.

Hate to break it to you junior, but that happens EVERY time a law is passed.

condescension coupled with a gross misunderstanding of what a "law" is makes me chuckle.

Status means nothing. People who are on the public dime shouldnt have the opportunity to vote politicians into office who promise to give them more of our money.

then people in the arms industry shouldn't be allowed to vote politicians into office who promise to maintain the military industrial complex
people in any industry that could be subject to governmental spending should be losing their right to vote by your logic.

Perhaps your parents should have made more responsible choices in life, such as not starting a family until they could afford to support it.

wow...i thought you were insulting with the head up my bum comment..

ok, how about this, my father made the choice to advance his education knowing he could use this helpful program while working multiple jobs to support his family.
he wouldn't have made the choice if the program didn't exist, he wouldn't have had access to resources to do so...

oh wait, you live in some ideal paradise when the only way people don't advance is because they don't work hard enough...
and people say we liberals wear rose colored glasses

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul


ah, but many of these families used to have healthcare before their employers cut the benefits.

Then perhaps its time to seek an employer who offers the benefits they need.

ad hom (which i've reported to the mods) and i just need to point something out:

Blah, blah, blah.

how does someone defend a nation using a 25 megaton warhead?

Defend against? FYI little boy, warheads with yields that large arent necessary, nor used anymore.

we spend more on our military than is necessary
in fact, we probably spend several times what is necessary for national defense because our military is no longer something for national defense but instead for the enforcement of our militaristic semi-imperialism in small countries that can't properly defend themselves using the arms that we sold them...

Mere opinion by a teenaged reader of indymedia.com.

not talking about constitutionality on that point, and you've yet to prove how healthcare isn't part of the general welfare.

I dont have to prove it isnt. You made that contention, the burden of proof falls upon you. Surely if it was included in the general welfare, you could find some SCOTUS findings on it right?

condescension coupled with a gross misunderstanding of what a "law" is makes me chuckle.

What did you score on your LSAT?

then people in the arms industry shouldn't be allowed to vote politicians into office who promise to maintain the military industrial complex
people in any industry that could be subject to governmental spending should be losing their right to vote by your logic.

I would suggest campaign finance reform instead.

wow...i thought you were insulting with the head up my bum comment..

Truth a little painful? Seriously, why would your parents start a family when they couldnt afford to support it? Relying on the public dime is NOT a way to support a family.

ok, how about this, my father made the choice to advance his education knowing he could use this helpful program while working multiple jobs to support his family.
he wouldn't have made the choice if the program didn't exist, he wouldn't have had access to resources to do so...

Ok so the taxpayers were forced to support him due to irresponsible decisions HE made. Nice.

oh wait, you live in some ideal paradise when the only way people don't advance is because they don't work hard enough...
and people say we liberals wear rose colored glasses

I live in America, not the socialist fantasyland you wish it was.

Fact: if immigrants right off the proverbial boat can work crap jobs to save enough money to start their own business and make a decent living for themselves WITHOUT relying on the taxpayers to support them , anyone can succeed in America.

Are any of your relatives or friends family receiving social security checks from the government?

And if so do you tell them what you think of them for collecting government assistance?

Originally posted by slackerwire
Then perhaps its time to seek an employer who offers the benefits they need.

if only life were that easy...

Blah, blah, blah.

yes, this seems to be your only response

Defend against? FYI little boy, warheads with yields that large arent necessary, nor used anymore.

the ones we built are still in stock...
and stop with the belittling comments.

Mere opinion by a teenaged reader of indymedia.com.

is your only argument that i'm young and that you have no idea about what i read?
i didn't even know that indymedia.com existed, i just went to it for the first time in my life this minute.

all you've got to work from now are personal attacks, a massive logical fallacy.

I dont have to prove it isnt. You made that contention, the burden of proof falls upon you. Surely if it was included in the general welfare, you could find some SCOTUS findings on it right?

constitutionality isn't dependent solely on SCOTUS findings in an argument, and aren't part of the argument until a case goes to trial. i have yet to find any SCOTUS case ruling on the issue at all.

here's my case for it: receiving healthcare is something beneficial for anyone

What did you score on your LSAT?

non-argument there.
i'm just pointing out that you said every law makes large numbers of people criminals...
tell me, how does a law declaring a day a public holiday make someone a criminal?

I would suggest campaign finance reform instead.

ah, then we won't have to take anyone's right to vote away

Truth a little painful? Seriously, why would your parents start a family when they couldnt afford to support it? Relying on the public dime is NOT a way to support a family.

and making sure the lower classes stay that way due to circumstance is NOT a way for a society to thrive.

Ok so the taxpayers were forced to support him due to irresponsible decisions HE made. Nice.

irresponsible?
do you have blinders on that only let you read part of the text?
he made the decision knowing he could rely on the program. he would've been able to support our family without any chance of advancement without the program, but he chose to advance us and live the american dream that i hear so much about

I live in America, not the socialist fantasyland you wish it was.

you're right: sweden is so much nicer (though i hear it's a tad chilly this time of year).

it's odd that the swedes and norweigans can get this system you demonize to work so well and thrive with it.

DISTORTED, UNSUPPORTED OPINION: if immigrants right off the proverbial boat can work crap jobs to save enough money to start their own business and make a decent living for themselves WITHOUT relying on the taxpayers to support them , anyone can succeed in America.

fixed that for you
show me statistics to support it, i'll believe it.

my father was going for something a bit more in his range when we got to this country, something more academic. he came here knowing he could further himself in his field of choice instead of starting a business he actually got to do what he enjoyed, contributing to society with 3 jobs.

and stop the age comments, it just shows the frustration you're feeling when you don't have an argument

Well, this is over. If all Slackwire has is insults it means he has nothing.

US- "2+2=4"
SW "No it doesn't!"
US- Provides proof
SW- "Little boy with your head shoved so far..."

You get the point.

Anyways Slack, how is your attempt at not using anything that the unclean have touched going?