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Pasadena police say Horn shot 2 men in the back - More on the 'Hero'

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posted on Dec, 9 2007 @ 05:54 PM
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reply to post by orangetom1999
 


So he's a hero for working a tractor? What exactly does his occupation have to do with him shooting 2 people?

The neighbor could have had their property easily replaced. Case in point, someone broke into my girlfriend's home, stole her laptop and TV and the insurance company replaced the laptop and TV within a week.




posted on Dec, 9 2007 @ 06:02 PM
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reply to post by DJMessiah
 

The neighbor could have had their property easily replaced.


Some things are not replaceable and putting a monetary value on them is impossible.

For example: I have things from other countries (Russia, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc) that could NEVER be replaced.

I have things that were my grandmother's from when she was a child. Could NEVER be replaced.

And I cant tell you how much these things are worth. They are priceless in my opinion.

I also have a couple of external hard drives that have all my pictures/video/graphics, etc etc that is not replaceable.

I dont care about my TV or laptop. I care about the things that are dearest to me that can NOT be replaced.


So really at the end of the day......nobody can tell another person that the things in their home can easily be replaced or insurance will give money for it. Its just not the case in many instances.

[edit on 9-12-2007 by greeneyedleo]



posted on Dec, 9 2007 @ 06:03 PM
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reply to post by DJMessiah
 


I`d like to add as well,Stealing is stealing yes.

Though imo the worse thieves are the rich theives,those that steal, corporate thieves,scam artists etc, we have all seen and read about,who have left everyday people including those who have invested for their retirement only to loose the lot.No they didn`t break and enter,though it would be safe imo to assume some have died through heart failer or poor health because of it.

Are they shot? no!

Do some wish they would be? for sure.

If they were does that make that right? no!

[edit on 9-12-2007 by gps777]



posted on Dec, 9 2007 @ 06:07 PM
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reply to post by greeneyedleo
 


I can understand that personal object will carry sentimental value, but how much emotional worth will a TV carry? Can we expect the neighbor to have cherished his TV like a priceless heirloom?



posted on Dec, 9 2007 @ 06:10 PM
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reply to post by DJMessiah
 


LOL. Well, ask most guys on Sunday and you will get a big YES. LOL

But really....probably not. Its mostly the principal of the matter. Stealing shouldnt be tollerated....even if it is just stealing a TV. But I know you agree w/ that



posted on Dec, 9 2007 @ 06:13 PM
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reply to post by greeneyedleo
 


Of course, but does it garner enough worth to place its value over a human's life?

I can assume the shooter didn't know what the men were stealing, and it could have been something like an heirloom, but given the fact that he was warned not only by the 911 operator not to shoot the men, but also by the police officer, he had already made up his mind that two men have to die.



posted on Dec, 9 2007 @ 06:29 PM
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reply to post by DJMessiah
 


If they were stealing from MYhome, yes!



posted on Dec, 9 2007 @ 06:45 PM
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O'well this happens everytime a black or a brown person gets killed or arrested by a white guy it is automatically the rednecks fault...It never fails same old story...No wonder racism is on the rise..Even when a natural disaster happens the "blame whitey" propaganda just like Katrina disaster..I heard immediate blames put on Bush...All because he was white president...But when a fire goes through California and many peeps lose their homes you dont hear this propaganda....Kinda makes me wonder what is happening here...Houston is getting ready to be a firestorm as a result of this incident as crime went up after the Katrina disaster and tensions were already high, because of all the people which came to their city after the disaster....Now this....It is a never ending story....



posted on Dec, 9 2007 @ 07:26 PM
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From my fast reading of this thread, there seems to be a certain amount of ambivalence on the distinction between crimes against person and crimes against property. Crimes against property are usually what you yanks call misdemeanors, they are crimes that target the property of another person, be it taking it, destroying or defacing it. As far as I am aware, these crimes are usually punished with fines or penal sentences of varying severity. In my knowledge no crimes of property are punishable by death and only Sharia Law allows for the punishment of such crimes with mutilation.
Crimes against person are crimes that harm another person; assault, rape and murder. These are the crimes that are considered to be more serious infractions of the law and it is these crimes that can be punishable with execution in the U.S amongst other places.
In Europe, as far as I am aware, only crimes against the state seem to still be punishable by death, i.e treason.
I understand that the police in the U.s are only permitted to use their firearms in the defense of themselves or another person, or in the apprehension of a suspect that is fleeing the scene of a capital crime.
Since the crime committed by the two deceased persons was crime against property, Horn can only justify his shooting if he was in fear for his life or personal safety, the same as a policeman would have to if they had shot unarmed suspects.
The autopsy report's statement that the men were shot in the torso and neck, is ambivalent at best, not offering any opinion as to which direction the shots came from. If the men had been shot in the back however, that would imply that they were fleeing which in turn would invalidate any legal justification of the actions.

Just my two EuroCents worth.



posted on Dec, 9 2007 @ 09:15 PM
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They were robbing someone (how did horn know they didn't just kill the neighbors), they are connected with other robberies, they are both illegal's, and they are connected to various gangs.

What more is there to know? If they weren't criminals, this would not have happened.

I am glad that I do not live in a state or country where one is not free to defend themselves, their family, and their property. If someone comes in my house to rob me, they will likely be shot.



posted on Dec, 9 2007 @ 10:13 PM
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Originally posted by DJMessiah
reply to post by greeneyedleo
 


Of course, but does it garner enough worth to place its value over a human's life?


Here is the rub, define humanity, are you saying that someone like Hitler and someone like Mother Teresa are the same?


I can assume the shooter didn't know what the men were stealing, and it could have been something like an heirloom, but given the fact that he was warned not only by the 911 operator not to shoot the men, but also by the police officer, he had already made up his mind that two men have to die.


The plain clothes Officer never made such a demand of Mr. Horn and Mr. Horn DID tell them to stop or he would shoot. The 911 operator has no Authority, so all they can legally do is make suggestions, and using your same logic, Mr. horn also didn't know that the occupants of the house weren't dead.

I've never had ANYTHING stolen from me UNTIL I moved to Texas last year, my auto was broken into and my radio was stolen, the Police said "oh well" the insurance I had on my car was not full coverage ( the car was only $400) and that was in a small town and while I was parked at work. (at a fairly hazardous job at that, look up pentane)
to quote Baretta's theme song.."don't do the crime if you can't do the time...their time is up. I don't see Mr. horn as a hero, nor a murderer, I see him as a man that Finally drew a line in the sand.



posted on Dec, 9 2007 @ 11:01 PM
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What both sides of the argument are forgetting to realize that this is life and not a comic book. In life, opposing sides can both be evil. Was Horn justified in shooting two unarmed men? No. He simply does not meet the legal criteria for self defense nor does he he meet the moral criteria. On the other hand, do the burglars meet the legal or moral criteria? Of course not. If only he had only wounded the men, then all three could stand trial. Both parties were wrong in the situation. Horn's defense will have to rely on the burglars being in his front yard at the time of the shooting.

Horn's life and property were in no danger and he had already called the police.



posted on Dec, 9 2007 @ 11:22 PM
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Don't forget the 911 recording where Mr Horn states one intruder has a Crowbar thats a mean weapon in the wrong hands I hope Mr Horn gets off this,if he gets convicted that will tell all house breakers they have more power than the Home owner.



posted on Dec, 10 2007 @ 02:23 AM
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Originally posted by zerotime
I'm sorry but the comparison to misdemeanor crimes is plain stupid.

This case is not about a small crime and we aren't talking about a small crime. We are talking about home invasions and burglary. These are extremely serious crimes. Can everyone agree on that point?

I have known friends here in Columbus OH who have lived through home invasions and they are a traumatic, horrifying experience. No one expects, nor should they expect, to be shot by someone when they are jaywalking, HOWEVER, if you are breaking into another person’s home to terrorize and/or steal you should worry about being shot. Can we agree on that too? Or no, you shouldn't expect to be shot when breaking into another person's house?

I guess I will post this information again.


The men, who had just burglarized Horn's neighbor's house, faced him from seven to 10 feet away when they ignored his order to "not move"or they would be dead, police said.

The two men — Diego Ortiz, 30, and Hernando Riascos Torres, 48 — collapsed and died not far from Horn's home on Timberline in a Pasadena neighborhood.

Both were illegal immigrants from Colombia, authorities said. Torres had been deported to Colombia in 1999 after serving time for possession with intent to distribute coc aine. Both were also using fake identification cards and aliases, and their backgrounds are now being scrutinized by federal authorities to determine if they were part of a Colombian fake ID and burglary ring, authorities said.

they were carrying a sack filled with more than $2,000 in cash and assorted jewelry believed taken in the burglary, police said.

The fact that a police officer witnessed the shooting but did not arrest Horn is further evidence that he acted in self-defense. "You've got a trained police officer sitting there watching this, and he doesn't arrest Horn,"

www.chron.com...




[edit on 8-12-2007 by zerotime]

[edit on 8-12-2007 by zerotime]


To bad they weren't shot when they illegaly crossed our border and left for dead out in the desert then we wouldn't be discussing this and they wouldn't have been such a problem. Now if they would have stayed in there own country they might still be alive.



posted on Dec, 10 2007 @ 02:38 AM
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After looking over the case over and over I came to one conclusion.

This was a hate crime. This person hated illegals and their race. It's evident from the overall feel and tone of the report. This person,(Hillbilly) was irritated, angry at all the illegal activity taking place in texas and he took his frustration out on people he disliked. I am not throwing the race card, it's just the facts.

1. he was not in immediate danger
2. he was not defending anyone
3. the house was empty.

conclusion. Arrest him and jail him for five years. we have to do this in order to keep them from doing anymore damage to people. we are not living in the old west and we cannot take the law into our hands anymore.
Saying that, i'm done with this subject.



posted on Dec, 10 2007 @ 03:00 AM
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Originally posted by UScitizen


To bad they weren't shot when they illegaly crossed our border and left for dead out in the desert then we wouldn't be discussing this and they wouldn't have been such a problem. Now if they would have stayed in there own country they might still be alive.


Well then the same could be said for those who stole the country now known as the US,if the Indians had killed them all we wouldn`t be listening to you either.

Nor would there be a country who invades other countries based on lies.



posted on Dec, 10 2007 @ 03:06 AM
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Originally posted by DJMessiah
reply to post by orangetom1999
 


So he's a hero for working a tractor? What exactly does his occupation have to do with him shooting 2 people?

The neighbor could have had their property easily replaced. Case in point, someone broke into my girlfriend's home, stole her laptop and TV and the insurance company replaced the laptop and TV within a week.


DJMessiah,

Zooooooooommmmmmm!!!!!! Way over your . and out of the ball park.

You seem to have a incredibly difficult time with multidimensional concepts or indirect relationships.

I till try this again for those who are challanged in this type of thinking. I dont believe a non tamped jury of working people will have any difficulty with this line of thinking.

Nowhere in your legalistic thinking do you ever mention the risks taken by people who work in their occupations ...often in dangerous circumstances. Farming is a very dangerous occupation...lots of risks working around machinery. Insurance rate tables by occupation will clear this up rapidly.

I never said in any of my posts that this person was a hero..this is your poor posturing in order to allow your positions to go through unchallanged. It comes across more like politics and the politics of emotion..not thinking. Legalism ..phariseeism...defaulting to play through unchallanged.

I also said..farming ...not driving or working a tractor. But to clarify further...my sister drives a tractor for the city cutting grass. This is dangerous as this tractor has a PTO..power take off attachment. Lots of people in this country have been injured or killed by power take offs on tractors. Also the pubic in most citys often operate thier vehicles dangerously around the city grass cutting crews adding to the hazards.
Furthermore she has paper pushing, pencil pushing, bean counting bosses who want them to cut grass during prime time hours when traffic is heaviest. Not when traffic is less ..on weekends or holidays or evenings, adding to the hazards, risks, and dangers. They are worried about the budget numbers ..not the safety of the crews operating this machinery. They are legalists/pharisees....they are all around us but they dont/won't share the risks..understand now???

Also you dont know that what you stated about replacing property is true. YOu dont know what the value is of the property taken to the neighbor nor if they had insurance...once again a assumption for the purposes of defaulting through. You like others on this thread assume for the purposes of your debate position ..assume without knowing what the "risk" is that people take to earn their propertys. Your case in point concerning your girlfriend is not the neighbor in this case.

I have not seen any articles on what exactly was taken. Nonetheless I do not automatically assume that the person who worked for the property is not a factor..the risks they have taken in thier occupations to earn the propertys stolen. I will not do this as I find this kind of assumption of disposability and expendability of people and thier labors/risks disgusting.
You and others with this mindset do not come across as very well tutored or thought out when you minimize the value of people taking risks with their lives for thier propertys purchased and owned .....and conversely maximize the value of people who are shot while stealing said property.
I will say this again..this does not make good nonsense.

I think neither will a jury will be impressed with such a position verses the private ownership of property and or a neighbors attempt to secure the same.

This way is hard and harsh ..but it is effective in slowing or preventing reoccurences. Much more effective than legalism/phariseeism.

Sorry DJMessiah..but I do not look at risk through the prizm of which do you. I cannot do such as I take very serious risk in my occupation and for my moneys. There are lots of peoples here on ATS/BTS who do the same and will understand immediately from whence I speak. I am just not wont to let such non thinking play through unchallanged or undebated without speaking up.

Thanks for your post,
Orangetom



posted on Dec, 10 2007 @ 03:27 AM
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reply to post by jedimiller
 




This was a hate crime. This person hated illegals and their race. It's evident from the overall feel and tone of the report. This person,(Hillbilly) was irritated, angry at all the illegal activity taking place in texas and he took his frustration out on people he disliked. I am not throwing the race card, it's just the facts.



Yea, Sure you got all the facts the guy just happened to look out and see 2 guys robbing the neighbors and automatically knew they was illegals and decided to shoot them because of their color...Lets just disreguard the 'fact" they were illegally breaking and entering a home and the "fact" they had a "crowbar" in hand aswell .......I guess we can just pick and choose our "facts" and make a case huh?? Lol



posted on Dec, 10 2007 @ 05:17 AM
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reply to post by jedimiller
 


I assume you can PROVE that ridiculous statement correct?

Not speculation, not assumption, but actually prove it.

Lets see it.



posted on Dec, 10 2007 @ 05:18 AM
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Originally posted by DJMessiah
reply to post by greeneyedleo
 


Of course, but does it garner enough worth to place its value over a human's life?

I can assume the shooter didn't know what the men were stealing, and it could have been something like an heirloom, but given the fact that he was warned not only by the 911 operator not to shoot the men, but also by the police officer, he had already made up his mind that two men have to die.


Yes. I work hard for what I have, and if some lowlife scumbag wanted to steal for instance my overpriced flat panel TV, he would pay with his life, because what he is essentially doing is stealing my labor.



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