It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Lessons learned – modern RPG/ATGMs require standardization of Trophy Active Defense System.

page: 1
1

log in

join
share:

posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 04:57 AM
link   
The inevitable lessons of armored warfare have been ignored for decades, and the results are as expected.

The most vivid example is the Russian fiasco of the first Chechen war, when corrupt orders forced T-80 tank groups to enter the city of Grozny with out infantry support, while being fueled with gasoline instead of kerosene against orders, with their auto-extinguisher systems disabled do to “maintenance shortages”, all while facing Chechens armed with RPG-29s, Kornet and Metis-M ATGMs.

Results were clear. Even ERA protected T-80s were sitting ducks for the Chechen grenadiers, and the first wave of gasoline fueled T-80s were burned with in seconds after being ambushed by RPG teams.

On the other side, while kerosene fueled T-80s with functioning extinguishing systems were disabled by multiple HEAT round hits (some with crew killed or wounded), most made it home under their own power, or were salvaged afterwards.

Another anomaly is the decision to use gas-turbine powered T-80s instead of diesel powered T-72s.

T-80 is a high tech, high performance descendent of T-64, and it’s a long range dualist specifically designed to spearhead the charge against the best Western armor, while T-72 is the “general use” front line tank intended to be used as a part of the entire force. That’s why neither T-64 nor T-80s were ever exported outside of USSR until its collapse.

While by design T-80 is better protected against high velocity kinetic rounds which it was expected to face in combat, T-72 (and its T-90 descendent) is better protected against HEAT rounds and RPGs it was likely to face. Sending a T-80 into the city is like sending a mounted knight into a village.

When hit with HEAT rounds all tank engines stall from the shock wave and pressure deferential, the difference is in how fast the engine can be restarted.

This was the main problem with gasoline fueled T-80s in Chechnya. They could not restart their turbines in time to escape RPG teams, which number anywhere from 5 to 7 grenadiers.

Naturally such a fiasco could not have happen with out blatant sabotage. Russians “invented” Stalingrad and know all well how to use armor in urban environment.

Even during taking of Berlin, both Germans and Russian were aware of T-34s cannon elevation limits, and during street fighting T-34 could not provide suppressive cannon fire support above second story level.

German grenadiers used higher floors to engage T-34s, thus requiring Russian infantry to sweep entire buildings.

What’s even more evident is that Soviets were actively (and successfully) using and protecting their tanks in USSR-Afghanistan war.

Afghani Mujahideen were also armed with guided ATGMs, and regularly set convoy ambushes on the mount passes.

While basic configuration T-72s were vulnerable to such attacks, further M1/M2 modifications with extended ERA and worlds first active Drozd system proved incredibly successful in countering guided ATGM fire.

In fact, even after taking multiple hits, modified T-72s were able to return fire and suppress enemy positions.

While Drozd was able to provide protection only to forward hemisphere, its further development the “Arena” provides all around protection.




posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 04:58 AM
link   
Now we come to the current events and the main point of this topic.

All of the above took place in the 80s, and while Russians were actively developing next generations of active systems and advanced ERA (RELIKT, KAKTUS, K-5), the development in the West simply stagnated.

Latest Israeli-Lebanon war clearly displayed how what some think the best HEAT round protected tanks (Merkava) were easily overwhelmed by Soviet/Russian ATGMs of the 80s.

Furthermore, the warhead of the shoulder fired RPG-29 named “Vampire” provides cheap medium/short range firepower similar to the more expensive guided systems.

These facts display a fundamental shift in use and effectiveness of heavy armor against an opponent with out a standing army or any kind of air assets.


Hezbollah’stic Examination
TV channels all over the world showed last month how the Israeli Army got struck in fights against Hezbollah. Israeli generals call Russian anti-tank missiles a reason that hampered Israel’s triumphal march into Lebanon.
Things Israel Thought of

The Israeli claim that Hezbollah uses Russia-made RPG-29 Vampire grenade launchers and the Metis-M and Kornet-E anti-tank missile systems. Israel also says that Lebanon received the systems from Syria.

Thus, Russian arms have stopped the Israeli army, for the first time in history. Heaps of Soviet tanks, jets and missile in the hands of Arabs were unable to contain the Israeli Army in 1956, 1967, 1973 and 1982. In 2006, it seems that a handful of Vampires, Metis’s and Kornet’s managed to do it. These exotic names are now known all over the world. In Israel, parents even scare children with these names.


www.kommersant.com...

More of the same here;


Russian arms appear to have played a crucial role in the strong resistance Hezbollah put up to the Israeli military in Lebanon.

Israel lost dozens of tanks, several helicopters and 116 men during its month-long push into southern Lebanon, the heaviest losses it suffered in any of the previous wars against Arabs. This gave Hizbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah reason to claim that his men had achieved "a strategic, historic victory" over "a confused, cowardly and defeated" enemy.

Israeli officials blamed the losses on Russian anti-tank grenades and missiles that had been allegedly supplied to Hizbollah by Syria and Iran.


www.today.az...

A list of videos and news snippets on how effective Russian ATGMs were against Merkavas;

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...


Soviets/Russians lead the development of these weapons hand-in-hand with the development of armor which is able to withstand them.

Other then extensive tests, Second Chechen war clearly showed that modern Russian ERA and active systems jammed/intercepted Metis and Kornet launches and ERA withstood multiple hits from Vampire when active system charges were depleted.

Arena also reportedly intercepted rooftop launched Vampires, thus indicating its ability to negate top attack mode of the modern ATGMs.

Test videos are available here;

www.youtube.com...

Against HEAT round;

www.youtube.com...

Most importantly against ATGM which destroyed Mekavas;

www.youtube.com...

Other then numerous active and passive defense systems, having learned their lessons in Chechnya, Russians created a specialty vehicle which is specifically designed to be a “bodyguard” for a MBT in urban environment.

Named BMPT it is basically a modified tank chassis armed to the teeth, designed to completely overwhelm enemy ambush positions with massive firepower, all while keeping the ability to counter enemy armor and air power with ATGMs and automatic canon fire.

Tank assistance combat vehicle BMPT video;

www.youtube.com...


Naturally Israelis took a hard look into their deadly mistakes and scrambled to develop their own active system, which turns out to be based Ukrainian technology, it being a modernized version of Drozd system, which is at least one generation behind Arena.

Here’s an overview of the Trophy;

www.youtube.com...

Unfortunately Trophy has been rejected by US Army;

www.youtube.com...

Merkava is not the only tank which fell to Soviet/Russian anti-tank weapons, British Challenger-2 which was previously though to be impenetrable, was breached with a shoulder fired RPG-29;


In the August attack, which occurred during an operation to arrest a leading insurgent in the town of al-Amarah, in southern Iraq, the Challenger was damaged when a Russian-made rocket-propelled grenade, known as an RPG-29, defeated the ERA and penetrated the driver's cabin.
Rocket lauchers: Click to enlarge

www.telegraph.co.uk..." target='_blank' class='tabOff'/>



The RPG-29 is a much more powerful weapon than the common type regularly used by insurgents to attack British troops. It is specifically designed to penetrate tank armour, although this is the first occasion on which it has managed to damage a Challenger.


www.telegraph.co.uk.../news/2007/05/13/nmod13.xml

Other then the obvious threat from existing MANPAD anti-armor solutions, Russians have already developed the next generation of Self-propelled ATGM, a fast, nimble and amphibious BMP-3 based dedicated tank killer called Hrisantema.

The concept is not new; a previous generation was based on tracked, low profile MTLB and called 9K113 Shturm-S.

Basic MTLB;

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

The difference is in all around increase of speed in all systems and Hrisantemas’ ability to fire two missiles at the same time at longer ranges with advance targeting and tracking, thus allowing it to overwhelm existing active defense systems.

Hrisantema in action;

www.youtube.com...

Conclusions are simple, while current generation Russian MBTs can handle all types of Russian made anti-tank weapons (even Hrisantemas dual fire mode failed to breach T-90 due to Arena/K5 combination), Western MBTs absolutely HAVE to adopt active systems with advanced ERA, because if Russian arms exports continue to prosper as they currently do, it’s not only the Israelis who will have to suffer serious MBT losses.

With more RPG-29s making their way to Iraq/Afghanistan, we’re looking at a very grim picture indeed.



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 10:21 AM
link   

Originally posted by iskander
The inevitable lessons of armored warfare have been ignored for decades, and the results are as expected.

The most vivid example is the Russian fiasco of the first Chechen war, when corrupt orders forced T-80 tank groups to enter the city of Grozny with out infantry support, while being fueled with gasoline instead of kerosene against orders, with their auto-extinguisher systems disabled do to “maintenance shortages”, all while facing Chechens armed with RPG-29s, Kornet and Metis-M ATGMs.

Results were clear. Even ERA protected T-80s were sitting ducks for the Chechen grenadiers, and the first wave of gasoline fueled T-80s were burned with in seconds after being ambushed by RPG teams.

On the other side, while kerosene fueled T-80s with functioning extinguishing systems were disabled by multiple HEAT round hits (some with crew killed or wounded), most made it home under their own power, or were salvaged afterwards.

Another anomaly is the decision to use gas-turbine powered T-80s instead of diesel powered T-72s.

T-80 is a high tech, high performance descendent of T-64, and it’s a long range dualist specifically designed to spearhead the charge against the best Western armor, while T-72 is the “general use” front line tank intended to be used as a part of the entire force. That’s why neither T-64 nor T-80s were ever exported outside of USSR until its collapse.

While by design T-80 is better protected against high velocity kinetic rounds which it was expected to face in combat, T-72 (and its T-90 descendent) is better protected against HEAT rounds and RPGs it was likely to face. Sending a T-80 into the city is like sending a mounted knight into a village.

When hit with HEAT rounds all tank engines stall from the shock wave and pressure deferential, the difference is in how fast the engine can be restarted.

This was the main problem with gasoline fueled T-80s in Chechnya. They could not restart their turbines in time to escape RPG teams, which number anywhere from 5 to 7 grenadiers.

Naturally such a fiasco could not have happen with out blatant sabotage. Russians “invented” Stalingrad and know all well how to use armor in urban environment.

Even during taking of Berlin, both Germans and Russian were aware of T-34s cannon elevation limits, and during street fighting T-34 could not provide suppressive cannon fire support above second story level.

German grenadiers used higher floors to engage T-34s, thus requiring Russian infantry to sweep entire buildings.

What’s even more evident is that Soviets were actively (and successfully) using and protecting their tanks in USSR-Afghanistan war.

Afghani Mujahideen were also armed with guided ATGMs, and regularly set convoy ambushes on the mount passes.

While basic configuration T-72s were vulnerable to such attacks, further M1/M2 modifications with extended ERA and worlds first active Drozd system proved incredibly successful in countering guided ATGM fire.

In fact, even after taking multiple hits, modified T-72s were able to return fire and suppress enemy positions.

While Drozd was able to provide protection only to forward hemisphere, its further development the “Arena” provides all around protection.
The Russia leadership wanted to prolong the war, thats why RPG-29's and Kornet anti-tank weapons found themselves in Chechen hands, notice Russia doesn't even sell the Kornet's to any nation, but some how the Chechen's got hold of them, yea right, they were armed by the currupt Yeltsen governmet, but thats another LONG story.



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 01:46 PM
link   
Great Post!

The Russians have been working for years to provide cheap and effective, simple to use arms to the "People" of the world while maintaining the ability to counter these weapons themselves. Unable to spend like the west for the better part of it's existence the USSR was content to arm the folks who had the nerve to stand against the American Corpratist Empire. Iran is armed to the teeth with guided missiles that cost 1/10th the price of an F-16 and can still penetrate the defenses of a Carrier group. Apparently their anti-armor weapons have advanced as well.

Thanks again for the post. My prayers go out to the Soldiers who must face these weapons and the people who must unfortunately face our soldiers. Hopefully this war will end soon, the Empire will fall, and the people can regain Peace in our time.



posted on Dec, 10 2007 @ 02:29 AM
link   
reply to post by YASKY
 



The Russia leadership wanted to prolong the war, thats why RPG-29's and Kornet anti-tank weapons found themselves in Chechen hands, notice Russia doesn't even sell the Kornet's to any nation, but some how the Chechen's got hold of them, yea right, they were armed by the currupt Yeltsen governmet, but thats another LONG story.


Unfortunately you are correct. As I mention on ATS before, I read Russian, and years back I came across a small home made Russian website published by a mother of a fallen Russian soldier, and in his memory she put up his diary and his letters.

After a while other families became aware of the site and added diaries and letters of their fallen sons, brothers and husbands.

I’ve read all of them and was simply appalled by how corrupt the command was and that they literally sent their own men into ambushes they them selves participated in setting up, all for a “fist full of dollars”.

How weapon storage stations were literally surrendered to Chechen forces under offitial orders. Guards were ordered to simply leave and get r&r.

Other then the usual front line “barter”, when Russian grunts were not getting even the basic supplies because their corrupt generals were literally stealing and selling anything they could get their hands on, some Russian conscripts did in fact traded weapons for US dollars, vodka, food, porno, etc.

To my knowledge two of the worst examples were the unprecedented events involved cargo train cart which was loaded with MANPAD SAMs, RPG-29s and most importantly the latest chemical flamethrowers, RPO Shmel.

Here are some videos of what Shmel was designed for;

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

Russian infantry used Shmel against Chechens with great success through out the conflict, and Chechens considered it as simply the deadliest infantry weapon.

Russian troops regularly used it to literally blow out entire sections of buildings in which Chechens set up their hardened positions.


The cart which among other MANPAD weapons contained Shmels was detached from the train and conveniently left unattended and unguarded. Upon nightfall Chechens pulled up in trucks and unloaded the entire cart.

Even though official investigation simply swept everything under the carpet as it’s usually done in any military, the transfer was obviously arranged through good old bribery.

Shortly after Chechens developed and employed new night time anti-armor tactics.

Previously spotters with night-vision directed RPG teams which simply fired volleys and retreated, but Russians quickly adopted by popping smoke, using smoke generators of their armor and setting of a whole lot of flares to create cover and escape kill boxes.

Flare lit smoke obscured night-vision gear enough to disrupt spotters, but when Chechens got a hold of Shmels, they began using them in an ingenious way.

By design Shmel-A is not an anti-armor weapon, (later modifications do have a small shaped charge to allow the main warhead to penetrate into APC and detonate inside) and is simply incapable of penetrating even the thinnest of APC armor, but because it’s basically a thermobaric warhead, it had secondary effects when used against armor.

First effect: thermobaric detonation stunned blinded and disoriented the crew, while the blast usually completely wiped off ant comm. antennas thus isolating the vehicle.

Second effect: while initial blast did have enough of a shock wave to stall the engines of various APCs when hit in the rear, tanks fared much better and did not stall, but in all cases, a Shmel hit ANYWHERE on the vehicle with simply lit it up like a Christmas tree, thus making it a perfect target for RPG teams.

With this tactic, Shmel gunners would light up their target, and then RPG teams would literally tear them apart, which in turn forced a drastic reduction of Russian armor positions.

Another example of bribery resulting in massive casualties is the bringing down of the Mi-26, the largest helo in the world which was loaded with over 150 troops including high ranking officers and top brass.

Helo was brought down in Khankala back in 2002 by Igla Sam and it crashed in a mine field around the airport from which it was taking off. 127 were killed, making it the worst helicopter disaster of all time.

Insiders called it a “hit”, with a whole other meaning attached to it. Originally that particular Mi-26 was supposed to carry only 80 troops, and leaving high ranking personnel for a separate (safer route) flight.

While loading over 150 troops did not technically overload the helo, it did force it to gain altitude very slowly, thus making it a perfect target.

Everything was arranged for this hit, which was planned and perfectly executed

Against all regulations there was complete lack of standard Mi-24 support which were supposed to perform a regular sweep of the area surrounding the airstrip and clear it of any enemy presence.

Regular ground patrols and sweeps of the buildings and their roof tops were not carried out with out any explanation.

Most importantly, regular optical and video observation of the buildings parallel to the airstrip were not conduced, even though those building were pre-assessed and pre-marked as prime locations for possible SAM attacks.

Igla was launched from one of those buildings and scored a direct engine hit, in a text book side attack. Side attacks have the biggest success rate do to better exhaust trail tracking.

In opinions of many experts the attack was to sophisticated for the Chechens to pull of on their own because it involved the level of intelligence detail and levels of corruption that were simply out of reach for the Chechens.



posted on Dec, 10 2007 @ 02:42 AM
link   
reply to post by Tinhatman
 



Great Post!


Thanks!


The Russians have been working for years to provide cheap and effective, simple to use arms to the "People" of the world while maintaining the ability to counter these weapons themselves.


Even though it’s a generalization it does apply fully.


Unable to spend like the west for the better part of it's existence the USSR was content to arm the folks who had the nerve to stand against the American Corpratist Empire.


I won’t get into the political discussion over arms trade, but statistically it’s a fact that for one reason or another, Soviets did arm nations that were either already colonized by Western powers, or were in the process of being colonized, aka enslaved.


Iran is armed to the teeth with guided missiles that cost 1/10th the price of an F-16 and can still penetrate the defenses of a Carrier group. Apparently their anti-armor weapons have advanced as well.


It’s true, and Iran was a colony with a puppet ruler before the Islamic revolution doesn’t matter how you spin it.

Right now Comcast OnDemand runs a film by the great director Pantecorvo, film called “The Battle of Algiers”, it sums it all up and shows how the people fought against French occupation.

French also got the proper response to colonialism in Vietnam before we ever got there, and they got the snot beat out of them there long before us.


Thanks again for the post. My prayers go out to the Soldiers who must face these weapons and the people who must unfortunately face our soldiers. Hopefully this war will end soon, the Empire will fall, and the people can regain Peace in our time.


It’s inevitable, unfortunately, the same old wheel of war, the cycle will continue, and the next step will surely be battlefield robotics.

No amount of Kornets will matter if they are to fight against heartless hunks of metal which are mass produced by some corporation.



new topics

top topics
 
1

log in

join