CIA destroyed al-Qaida interrogation video

reply to post by 4thDoctorWhoFan

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With a point of view like yours, you really need to get waterboarded yourself so that you really know for sure that it's not torture. You see 'normal' peace loving people know it to be torture, I think you need a hard lesson in reality. Really you haven't got a clue have you. I think a little bit less of the knuckle dragging approach has always helped mankind strive towards a more just world. Wake up please, or go and get some help, seriously, you need it.

I hope they destroyed all the sodomy footage too. We wouldn't want people to get the wrong impression. ------------------------PC

The copy is destroyed....

Piffle.



Yo, what about all the copies.... tapes, mpegs...all the one that got
around the office... not that sophisticated?

The edited ones must be goofy trying to make thing look tame.

Wait... things will show up.

ED: The Conspiracy Theorist always wins.

[edit on 12/7/2007 by TeslaandLyne]

reply to post by geocom

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Interesting.

How about the US and UK governments have a day in the World Court and UN for crimes against its citizens?

May we see the governments in Geneva to rewrite the rules or see the governments flee there for refuge.


Kick out the 9/11/01 and 7/7 lairs before they waterboard more people
to confess to their sins.

This is totally Barbara Streisand!

When a non-covert CIA desk jockey (Valerie Plame) is supposedly "outed", the Democrats are outraged. But when the CIA destroys video of real undercover CIA agents to protect their identity, they are equally outraged? I don't get it?

[edit on 7-12-2007 by RRconservative]

reply to post by TeslaandLyne

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Not wanting to get into the tit and tat of a lot of the posts earlier (you grow up , no you grow up) but there are far more countries in this world involved in the Geneva Convention than just the U.S. and the U.K. 194 as of June 2007 the last to ratify was Montenegro..

So my question is this are we going to take all of them back to Geneva as well and if we were to do so do you really think that you would surprise any of them with anything heard there.

Even if we did go back to Geneva which we do often for amendments (this is why atrocities Bosnia and Herzegovina were covered under international law and the Geneva Convention) do you really think that they are going to change anything Nope No Way not gonna happen...

Maybe it is time to think of America like Microsoft, as Microsoft is the constant target of attacks and threats because it is so large , America is the world super power that everyone wants to take down or attack we are an easy target cause we are such a large target..

2 Cents Spent

Respectfully
GEO

as a side note I am a huge fan of Tesla and I like your Avatar!!


[edit on 12/7/2007 by geocom]

[edit on 12/7/2007 by geocom]

I figure the World Court or UN couldn't get rid of Bush and the 9/11 liars.

The NWO of Bush Sr. evidently has control of America, so why
fund a UN or World Court army to take over America.

We are safe in that regard.

No Osama Bin Laden: Bush escaped.
But perhaps US Intel: body burnt up, can't id.


All we can do is viciously peruse punishment to the incidental screw ups,
(like anyone in this tape thing) at least in mild and timid rhetoric.

reply to post by RRconservative

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What part of it don't you get?

If we want it that way we'll get it that way.

I have "no recollection" of what I have written here.
Repeat, if we want it that way, we'll get it that way.

[edit on 7-12-2007 by pc is here]

[edit on 7-12-2007 by pc is here]

With a point of view like yours, you really need to get your head out of the sand.


You forgot to add "in your opinion" to that statement. You see 'normal' peace loving people like myself realize that methods such as waterboarding is NOT torture and the technique helps to maintain our peace.


Thanks for telling me what I need Doctor.
Sorry, but you are the one who need to wake up and see the reality of the world. You are deluded, seriously.

reply to post by RRconservative

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How hard would it have been to blur the faces of the agents? I mean, people using their web cam to record crappy you-tube videos about smoking crack can blur their faces, you'd think the CIA could figure it out.

They destroyed those tapes, not to protect the identity of the agents, but to protect themselves from scrutiny.

However, as mentioned earlier, if the Democrats push hard enough, the CIA will likely forge a fake video... I wonder if it will have "What a wonderful world" as it's background music.

This whole episode may be deeper than what we think...


back in 2005 the CIA Director,
at the time of the interrogation tapes destruction,
was ( yes man & centurian soldier ready to fall on his sword) Porter J Gross.

General Hayden has since took over as Director of CIA...




~but this does not tell us the "Why" of Haydens' decision to reveal the
CIAs act to destroy potential evidence of prisoner treatment, or have further analysis of the info the prisoners/detainees gave.

~~Let's consider Director Hayden's revelation of destroyed tapes in 2005.
His announcement comes directly after the NIE report which reveals that
Iran most likely ceased all nuclear weapons programs in 2003,

in direct contradiction to what the administration (Pres & VP & sec of Def)
keep promoting- -i.e., that Iran is on the verge of actually producing
nuclear bombs.



++++ we we might just be seeing the first assaults on the administrations
War Bunker mentality & their War Machine...
the General Hayden might just be opening the CIA atrchives to public scrutiny for a reason,,,
the NIE report tells us that we have been/ and are being duped...(again!)

is this the first stirrings of a peaceful coup, intended to silence the war-hawkish administration...and to essentially belay the war-time-presidents
policy decisions and have the Pres & VP just settle back into a quieted down, care-taker, lame duck function -->> until the january '09 Inauguration Ceremony
~ or else face serious impeachment charges ?? ~


but then again, I may be reading too much into the events of the day

[edit on 8-12-2007 by St Udio]

My oh my there sure are a bunch of America haters here at ATS. Europeans and even some of my fellow Americans side with the enemy all too often without thinking about what the consequences really are.

Our way of life is being undermined not only by the thugs that we hold in Gitmo but by the very free people we try to protect. I think most that do this have a need to feel self-righteous indignation no matter what the cause. As long as the media tells them its bad they will take up the cause. They have no thought process of their own...

If you feel that water boarding is bad then why don't you start a thread about the torture of humans during a cutting off of the head session? How do you think that person feels while they are going through that kind of terror? Oh, I forgot.... The media finds nothing wrong with that so it must be ok... I see the logic...

I similarly realize that there is no easy solution to this problem, and it has made the world more dangerous for many decades to come. However history has taught us a couple things which we should not be ignoring.

First that torture does not, and never has been an effective means of information extraction. People will do and say anything to make torture stop, and provide more false information then real information in that situation. To make matters worse it makes us look the part of the bad guys, and it turns even more people against us long term.

The second thing we should be learning from history is that conquering a nation historically does not work unless one of two things happen in conjunction with that. First, if the general population does not support your side, you will never effectively win and you will continue to make a larger resistance movement the more you try to crack down on that population. This is why we did not have problems in situations such as WWII or Kuwait where someone else conquered the general population, and we were just returning the pre-existing government to power. Look at the Roman Empire in Jerusalem, or even Vietnam, in both of these the population was a majority against what they considered to be the outside force. Historically the only way that a nation can truly conquer another land is decimate that land until it is basically empty property, then re-establish it. If it does not go either of those two ways then you have to eternally police the population, and more and more of them become rebels by the hour.

The only way I can see to deal with the situation as it stands is that you do not invade such as we did in Iraq, you leave the current government in control, but you quietly exert your influence on that government. The problem today with this idea today is that there are other governments who compete against you when that happens. So if we try to exert influence on Iran through punishment, for example, it drives them closer to China and Russia. So what you have to do is offer boons to those nations for doing things that will, down the road, make the population more open to the outside, less xenophobic, and more capable of peacefully co-existing with other nations and religions. Think about that, is it generally easier to train someone through punishment, or reward?

Folks often blame religion for the problems of the Middle East, but the truth of the matter is that the lines are drawn more so by heritage then actual religion, its just that specific religions also end at the same lines. If the differences were strictly based on religion, then there would not be the wars between different factions within the Muslim Religion itself. Christian, Jew, and Muslim should be able to peacefully co-exist because their religions stem from a common ground, as they generally do so in this country. Why is that?

The reason being that we have a different cultural teaching and moral set then they do, one of forgiveness and peaceful co-existence. We don’t believe in seeking revenge for things that happened 100’s of years ago to some relative, lost in the mists of time. We are not taught from an early age to hate another group based on something that happened before we were ever conceived, but over there that is considered to be an Honor issue. That is what needs to change more so then actual governments themselves. The only way I can see that changing is by stopping the people who are teaching this mindset to the younger generations, and continually perpetuating these problems. That is the root cause of the entire situation, and if you remove the root, you remove the whole plant.

Things like torture, nation building, and conquering people only serves as fertilizer to further nourish and make that planet grow stronger and healthier. Of course I don’t think its in the interests of the current worlds elite to have peace over there. There are too many in power who make money off of conflict, and there are too many corporations who increase profits off of suppressed populations, and there are to many who wish to pass laws to crack down on their current populations through the fear that the conflict causes.

reply to post by 4thDoctorWhoFan

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It is not opinion, it is in fact law. A law that we not only agreed to follow, but also that we have punished people for.


According to our own law it is in fact torture.


The wiki article has attached sources. Wiki is just a convenient place to quickly find information, and has been proven to be almost as accurate as most encyclopedias. Even more balanced and accurate on certain topics.

Again the history major on this topic I see…
Hung, drawn, and quartered had several variations, but none of them involved the person being burned to death. What they did do was:
1) Drag the person on a sled, behind a horse to the execution location.
2) Hang them until almost dead.
3) Emasculate the prisoner.
4) Disembowel the prisoner through a ringer.
5) Burn the entrails that were removed.
6) Behead the prisoner.
None of this was done as an information type torture, it was done to make the death sentence as painful as possible. Normally it was only done in cases of Regicide or Treason.

French “Quartering” which is not the same a “hung, drawn, and quartered” involved:
1) Tearing off flesh with red hot pincers
2) Rubbing hot sulfur or molten lead in the wounds.
3) Attaching the person to four horses going in four different directions.

"so we are told"? {eye dee ten tee alert}
I dont know what drugs you're on but you've got selective vision.
Them thar payple over yonder with dat lil ole rag {ahem, sorry partner} on there heads continually brainwash their kids with jihad while relying on islamoDisney and islamoMTV to spread the word. Where's the outrage?
Your claims of murder I beg to differ with because I think he's actually quite good when when it comes to "murdering scumbag" like those you sympathize with. Then again, you can't you really call it murder when you are only accommadating those who are already willing to die for there cause, can you?

I agree with you about him not having done anything constructive, especially when it comes illegal aliens and the sub prime bail out, but he sure did prove the so called economists wrong, didn't he?
I bet there are a lot less people eating beans and rice than we were originally told especially with all these Starbucks popping up everywhere.

But I guess we'll see what happens during the tail end of his term. Can we expect another downhill trend as we saw during the last seven months of the previous Prez's term? Time is yet to tell.

I don't know what country you're from pal but one of these days you'll be thankful for George,
...dubya, that is!

reply to post by Perplexed

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I don't think these Arab people are much of a threat. Even the terrorists. Anyone think of using harsh interrogation techniques against some of those total bums in Washington? To me, they are the threat.

Do us a favour mate, tell your government to please stop "protecting" us it's driving us crazy, air travel has become crazy, personal freedom has become a test of will.
Enemy ? you say the enemy, myyyy, you know, we didn't really have any enemies over here in Ireland, not for a long time, your government is busy creating new ones all the time. That's what's happening man, dubya is busy stirring up the s*** in the hope of gaining some elusive upper hand, and his attitude is so what if a few thousand of our poor young folk have to die who gives a s***. That's it man, your Pres doesn't care about all those young american men and women he sends to their deaths, he doesn't care two cents about them, and you support him, you support the murderer.
He disgusts me, your view disgusts me, islamic extremists who execute as they do disgust me utterly.
Your right, our way of life is being undermined, please tell your government to stop. Please.



[edit on 8-12-2007 by willywagga]

reply to post by defcon5

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In all seriousness, you make very good points. I agree with just about everything you say. Even I would probably make up things just to stop them from torturing me.

You make an excellent point with your punishment/reward statement and I must admit you almost had me convinced in your argument, but in your very next paragraph you state something that again nullifies your entire argument, which has been my point all along, that this is not like any other enemy we have ever been in conflict with before.

Your very next sentence also mirrors another view I've expressed on this site that has to be the most obvious clue when we forced to take a good hard look at the face of our enemy. Which leads to yet another question that most people will ignore and refuse to answer.
Why do all the conflicts of the world today involve the so called "Religion of Peace"?
Because obviously these people do not want peace with anyone, not even with their own brothers.

This must no longer be a popularity contest so who cares what the rest of the world thinks. We tried that before and were eventually labeled a "paper tiger" when the enemy secretly declared war on US.
Which is why we are there in the first place.

I know there will be those that will say Iraq had nothing to do with this, but as you state yourself "lines are drawn more so by heritage", and certainly not by borders.


Isn't that what Bush is trying to do now?

You say torture is not effective in extracting information?
I say to you Raid is not effective in the killing of cockroaches!

I don’t know that it’s the religion itself per-say. I think it’s a cultural thing that goes back to the old nomadic days. Its an old code of honor, that basically teaches that if someone affronted the honor of someone in your family 10,000 years ago, you still have to hold a grudge about it today. That is why there are so many subdivisions in their people, half of those subdivisions go back to old family feuds that are 100’s of years old. That concept is what needs to change more so then the religion itself. Why is it that most of the Muslims in the US live here peacefully and have no problems, again it’s a cultural thing in the “old country“.


Not that I know of. After 911, did we make any demands that the Saudis change their laws and outlaw the teaching of hate? You know, going into only two countries there is not going to do much, because the other countries around the area also get involved as they believe the same cultural traditions. So now we have problems with the radicals from those countries coming over and stirring up more problems in places like Iraq. If those countries were somehow forced to police their own radicals, then they would not be crossing the boarder and causing trouble. See, the PTB don’t want that though, because then they would have to make demands from countries that our corporations want to do business with.

Where did all the 911 guys come from to begin with? None of them came from either of the two places that we attacked; they came from Saudi. As I already stated, that is who should have had their arms twisted to police up their radicals, but we cannot do that, as they are our source of cheap oil and our corporations do business with them.